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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow
    Yes. More things to do and more lively world killed wow.

  2. #122
    The problem with the MMO market is:

    1. Blizzard no longer knows how to design games.
    2. They have a choke hold on the MMO market.

    Blizzard is driving the MMO market into the ground by slowly turning WoW into D3. D3 was a disaster and WoW is turning into a disaster as well as they insist on going this route for some reason.

    Blizzard no longer understand show to design games. The FIRST thing you do when you sit down and design a game is ask "why does the video game market NEED the game I am about to produce?" If you cannot answer that, don't bother making the game. In other words, you need a "value add". Your game needs to offer something that gamers cannot get anywhere else. You can make a case that Path of Exile has a "value add" in that they pump out updates people really enjoy at a faster rate than any other ARPG on the market. So, if you crave fast, quality updates in your ARPG, the ONLY place to go is GGG and Path of Exile. That's a "value add".

    When I look at modern offerings by Blizzard, like Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, WoW, Heroes of the Storm, or Overwatch, none of them do anything special. There's is nothing about them that screams "you can't get this anywhere else but Blizzard". Its just blah. It feels more like Blizzard is behind the curve, trying to release new features to ride the current trend, instead of setting a trend. That's a bad place to be. Blizzard is the Zune when other gaming companies are the Apple products.

    I remember reading how Bobby Kotick got excited about Overwatch when he saw it and said "yah this is the game Blizzard should be making!!!!" He's an idiot. They should NOT have made Overwatch. He has no expertise in this. But maybe he pushed them into a bad decision. Now they have a mess over there that they are trying to fix with a sequel and I doubt that will work well.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Good for you, but mobile "gamers" outnumber pc gamers
    Well then lets shit on PC gamers and make stupid excuses as to why their PC games SUCK as of late.... but then so do their mobile games. Good for you for being captain obvious...

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    If MMO market is not in decline, where did all the players go from the genre?
    MOBAS and other games. Just because one plays an MMO doesn't mean they will continually play MMOs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The problem with the MMO market is:

    1. Blizzard no longer knows how to design games.
    2. They have a choke hold on the MMO market.

    Blizzard is driving the MMO market into the ground by slowly turning WoW into D3. D3 was a disaster and WoW is turning into a disaster as well as they insist on going this route for some reason.

    Blizzard no longer understand show to design games. The FIRST thing you do when you sit down and design a game is ask "why does the video game market NEED the game I am about to produce?" If you cannot answer that, don't bother making the game. In other words, you need a "value add". Your game needs to offer something that gamers cannot get anywhere else. You can make a case that Path of Exile has a "value add" in that they pump out updates people really enjoy at a faster rate than any other ARPG on the market. So, if you crave fast, quality updates in your ARPG, the ONLY place to go is GGG and Path of Exile. That's a "value add".

    When I look at modern offerings by Blizzard, like Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, WoW, Heroes of the Storm, or Overwatch, none of them do anything special. There's is nothing about them that screams "you can't get this anywhere else but Blizzard". Its just blah. It feels more like Blizzard is behind the curve, trying to release new features to ride the current trend, instead of setting a trend. That's a bad place to be. Blizzard is the Zune when other gaming companies are the Apple products.

    I remember reading how Bobby Kotick got excited about Overwatch when he saw it and said "yah this is the game Blizzard should be making!!!!" He's an idiot. They should NOT have made Overwatch. He has no expertise in this. But maybe he pushed them into a bad decision. Now they have a mess over there that they are trying to fix with a sequel and I doubt that will work well.
    Which is it? You guys claim that WoW is turning into D3 and D3 is turning into WoW. It cannot be both.

  5. #125
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    oh shit they released their numbers!?
    if you could link those please i would love to see them.
    Actually, if you want to claim that Blizz has 12 million subs, you are the one making the Russell's Teapot claim, so it rests on you to support your claim.

    Blizz stopped reporting WoW subscriptions after the WoD debacle. If WoW was remotely near being back to 12 million subscriptions, they would absolutely be crowing about it across all corners of the web, and it would be on the first page of their financial reports.

    Instead, they talk about all their online properties (including, for example, Overwatch and Hearthstone) in terms of MAU (monthly active users) which is a bit deceptive since all someone has to do is log into 3 games one time each in a month, and you have 3 MAUs. And that number has been clearly in decline.

    I'm sure you'll doubt this statement as well, so I will point you to their financial reports where you can see for yourself. Click each annual report, note the MAUs for Blizz properties and notice the trend is overall very much down, not up.

    https://investor.activision.com/annual-reports

  6. #126
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Actually, if you want to claim that Blizz has 12 million subs, you are the one making the Russell's Teapot claim, so it rests on you to support your claim.

    Blizz stopped reporting WoW subscriptions after the WoD debacle. If WoW was remotely near being back to 12 million subscriptions, they would absolutely be crowing about it across all corners of the web, and it would be on the first page of their financial reports.

    Instead, they talk about all their online properties (including, for example, Overwatch and Hearthstone) in terms of MAU (monthly active users) which is a bit deceptive since all someone has to do is log into 3 games one time each in a month, and you have 3 MAUs. And that number has been clearly in decline.

    I'm sure you'll doubt this statement as well, so I will point you to their financial reports where you can see for yourself. Click each annual report, note the MAUs for Blizz properties and notice the trend is overall very much down, not up.

    https://investor.activision.com/annual-reports
    Where did i claim it has 12 million subs?
    Im asking you where you got your number, and instead of providing evidence, you start trying to lie about what i said.
    that is for sure what someone with actual evidence does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    How do you know the sub numbers are abysmal
    Financial results and the statements they made in the quarterly reports.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  8. #128
    I tried several MMOs. I wanted to like Rift and Warhammer for example

    WoW just kept being the better game...

    In the “Look at me” age other types of games are better at promoting the individual and hence are more popular.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    FFXIV is not a good example of the mmo market being alive and well it’s grow is pathetically small compared to say wow’s lunch or even tbc when mmos were at there peak.
    I think FFXIV as an example works quite well as it basically contradicts WoWs cycle. WoW began to drastically decline the time FFXIV launched whereas FFXIV steadily grew. Nowhere close to WoWs peaks but it's still something remarkable in a genre that seems to be dying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    that final fantasy was good to begin with is a opinion not a fact
    That can be said about WoW as well. Critical and fanbase appreciation got better and better though for FFXIV with Shadowbringers being praised by mostly everyone.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  10. #130
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Financial results and the statements they made in the quarterly reports.
    Which has them making far more money then prior years.
    how does more money coming from wow, equal less subs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.

    If you think that WoW is in a decline because of some bad game design decisions, then you still believe the game can be turned around with some better game design decisions and not be in a decline anymore.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?

    Pick your battles wisely.
    I think Blizzard has numbers and trends enough to see where mmo market is going.

    It’s just a miracle that WoW survived 15 years, it will eventually die because new players are far less than freezing or leaving players.

    Market has changed, there’s less and less space for heavy time demanding games (monthly fee is not an issue).

  12. #132
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I think FFXIV as an example works quite well as it basically contradicts WoWs cycle. WoW began to drastically decline the time FFXIV launched whereas FFXIV steadily grew. Nowhere close to WoWs peaks but it's still something remarkable in a genre that seems to be dying
    Even then wow’s lost is way way bigger then FF’s growth it’s not that the market shifted to another mmo the majority of the market just up and disappeared with a comparability low amount heading to FF.

  13. #133
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow
    Except Final Fantasy has practically all these features and continues to be a success, so maybe your personal gripes aren't indicative of the reason for the decline of wow. Next time use reason and logic instead of feelings, please.

  14. #134
    The classical mmorpg just like the rts market has died down a lot, games like WoW and genres too are in constant competition with most other genres and even other platforms, how many people would also play pc games if there was no console/mobile platform? I actually know a handful of rl friends who switched to consoles and never touched pc gaming again.

    There is this idea in peoples heads that the only reason WoW isn't at 12~ million subs or more right now is the sheer incompetence of "aCtIvISiOn bLiZzARd" and not stuff like product lifecycles, player crunch and the above mentioned, believe me, bad game design decisions are probably the least affecting factor of those why wow bled a ton of subs.

    But hey, what would all the haters do with their free time? mold? lmao.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Which has them making far more money then prior years.
    how does more money coming from wow, equal less subs?
    You missed what I was saying. I said retail is doing really bad, not World of Warcraft in general. All of the important revenues in Q3 and Q4 2019 regarding WoW came from Classic, which is even stated in the quarterly reports.

    This is from the Q3/19 report:

    World of Warcraft® Classic added record number of subscription plans1 in Q3. In Q3, World of Warcraft Classic drove the biggest quarterly increase to subscription plans2 in franchise history, in both the West and East

    Strong World of Warcraft Classic performance in the quarter. Segment revenues lower Y/Y against a comparable that included the World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth expansion

    This is from the Q4/19 report:

    World of Warcraft exited 2019 with an active player community2 more than twice the size of its Q2-ending level

    The last statement is important. Classic more than doubled WoWs active playerbase. Retail did basically nothing in regard of the very good Q4 results. Most of that was Classic. Retail is steadily decaying. And no, Blizzard is by no means making far more money than in prior years. Revenue down, income down, margins plummeting. Q4 is the only outlier and that's to blame on Classic's phenomenal performance.

    Here are their financial numbers for you:

    Q1/17: 41M MAU, $441M revenue / $166M income / 38% margin
    Q2/17: 46M MAU, $566M revenue / $225M income / 40% margin
    Q3/17: 42M MAU, $531M revenue / $168M income / 32% margin
    Q4/17: 37M MAU, $599M revenue / $160M income / 27% margin

    Q1/18: 38M MAU, $480M revenue / $122M income / 25% margin
    Q2/18: 37M MAU, $489M revenue / $133M income / 27% margin
    Q3/18: 37M MAU, $635M revenue / $189M income / 30% margin
    Q4/18: 35M MAU, $686M revenue / $241M income / 35% margin

    Q1/19: 32M MAU, $344M revenue / $55M income / 16% margin
    Q2/19: 32M MAU, $384M revenue / $75M income / 20% margin
    Q3/19: 33M MAU, $394M revenue / $74M income / 19% margin
    Q4/19: 32M MAU, $595M revenue / $260M income / 44% margin

    Quite important comparisons for my statement are the Q3/4 2018 vs. Q3/4 2019 financial results.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    MOBAS and other games. Just because one plays an MMO doesn't mean they will continually play MMOs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is it? You guys claim that WoW is turning into D3 and D3 is turning into WoW. It cannot be both.
    It can be both if Blizzard no longer even understands the difference between ARPGs and MMOs and starts turning it all into a hybrid hodgepodge.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    It can be both if Blizzard no longer even understands the difference between ARPGs and MMOs and starts turning it all into a hybrid hodgepodge.
    One, D3 hardly played like an MMO,
    Two, WoW hardly plays like and ARPG.
    Three, games need to evolve or else they stagnate. Blizzard has been historically good at following gaming/gamer trends. The issues seem to stem from people who do not like change and growth, and would prefer things to be as they remember them when they were "good"

    There was a satire post yesterday that perfectly describes this. And it's basically a back in my day things were better, you kinds and your long hair and Rock 'n' Roll music have it so easy today mentality.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    If MMO market is not in decline, where did all the players go from the genre?
    they stopped playing games and focus on their lives.

    teens nowadays dont play mmorpgs - most play mobile games.

    its geenration change.

  19. #139
    In the end it boils down to why care. Powerless to change it if it were and if you want to or not believe it the internet is full of shit you can twist around to make you feel better about it. Either way.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by sopeonaroap View Post
    Not at a blizzcon. mobile gamers aren't gamers, they're people who play games when they have to wait somewhere or shit.

    that's why blizz was booed
    Doesn't change the fact that mobile games are more profitable nowadays. And even on the PC market, classical mmos, because there is a much higher diversity in online gaming nowadays. The market doesn't cares about your feelings.

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