Can Arthas be held accountable for his crimes?

[Shiza]

I think the title says everything. Do you think that Arthas can be possibly held accountable for his crimes or that his condition after picking up Forstmourne be considered comparable with legal insanity?

According to Warcraft 3, Frostmourne consumed Arthas soul after he took the sword and his himself states after the killing of his father, that he feels unable to experience and guilt. Considering that a soul in the Warcraft universe performs similar functions the human brain does in real life, being a source of consciousness, emotions and the capacity to experience guilt, empathy and differenciate between social expectations of right or wrong, Arthas condition after taking Frostmourne and becoming a Death Knight could very well be compared to real life brain injuries that cause shifts in personality and mental illnesses, with Arthas displaying a severe behavior shift after becoming a death knight and displaying signs of an antisocial personality disorder or a similar disorders or cognitive impairments.

So what do you think, can Arthas be held fully accountable, partially accountable or not accountable at all for his actions as a Death Knight and Lich King, considering the damage caused by Frostmourne on his soul.

[Kyphael]

A case can be made that he was as much the first victim of Frostmourne and The Lich King as his father was. He was in a no-win situation in Stratholme, and did what he thought was best. He ignored the mad-sounding ravings of an useless prophet (Medivh) and went after the perpetrator behind the crimes against his people. At this point yeah, he was a horrible Paladin, but not an evil person.

Goes to Northrend seeking out Mal'ganis, hears of Frostmourne, which can help kill Mal'ganis, and ignores his best friend's pleas. At this point he's beyond counsel, but still not evil.

Grabs Frostmourne and from this point forward, it could be argued Arthas' actions were no longer his own, as his soul was the first Frostmourne claimed, according to in-game lore. The biggest contradiction to this is Arthas; Rise of the Lich King where we learned Arthas was in fact in control after destroying Ner'zhul's very presence, but if logic was, Frostmourne took his soul, how could it be inside The Helm of Domination too? The lore isn't entirely clear, and every new tidbit of information contradicts some prior information.

His most evil act prior to picking up Frostmourne was killing the mercenaries.

[thesmall001]

Arthas chose to purge Stratholme. He chose to pursue Mal'ganis to Northrend. He chose to burn the ships and frame the mercenaries. He chose to pick-up Frostmourne rather than use the Light to heal his friend and retreat. He chose not to heed the warnings that were given to him. Frostmourne consumed his soul once he touched it and everything beyond that was not under his agency, because agency requires will to be such, so nothing beyond that is "Arthas".

But the fact things reached that point? That was all his choice and the whole point is that characters around him cared enough to warn him at every turn and he continued regardless. Arthas' greatest crime and weakness was Pride.

[Kyphael]

Just saw the poll and wanted to add, by this point, no way was his sanity intact, how could it be? Any man would have already gone mad like he was. He wasn't a strong-minded individual to begin with. Compared to a king like Varian, he was a very weak-minded man. Anduin reminds me of him. I voted for partially accountable/Frostmournes influence is a mitigating factor for his guilt.

[Itori]

He was held accountable, we killed him. If you read some of the quests in icecrown he knew what he was doing, even in the books he knew what he was doing. He did what he had to, ripped out his heart and tossed it into the icy waters, killed his fragile boyish humanity and killed who he had to, was he sane? Probably not but insane or no, we put him in the dirt for what he did.

[Kithelle]

Arthas chose to purge Stratholme. He chose to pursue Mal'ganis to Northrend. He chose to burn the ships and frame the mercenaries. He chose to pick-up Frostmourne rather than use the Light to heal his friend and retreat. He chose not to heed the warnings that were given to him. Frostmourne consumed his soul once he touched it and everything beyond that was not under his agency, because agency requires will to be such, so nothing beyond that is "Arthas".

But the fact things reached that point? That was all his choice and the whole point is that characters around him cared enough to warn him at every turn and he continued regardless. Arthas' greatest crime and weakness was Pride.

Yup...he made many choices that were leading him down the path before he even reached Frostmourne.

[Donald Hellscream]

Yes, all he did was of his own volition, even after picking up Frostmourne.

Arthas was arrogant and prideful and gave zero fucks about anyone or anything standing in his way.

[Mehrunes]

Blizzard has not been particularly consistent (a surprise to be sure) about Arthas' state of mind after picking up the Frostmourne. Then there's the whole good Arthas and bad Arthas in his mind once he became the Lich King. Then he killed the good Arthas but not really. So on and so forth. So there's no solid answer to be had here as the topic is a toxic mess.

[derpkitteh]

arthas was in control of himself up until his death, chronicle made that clear.

he wanted to turn everyone undead to make azeroth have a better chance at holding off the legion and other threats.

[Kyphael]

In a land of magic I refuse to believe there wasn't something that could've been done to prevent the purge so yeah, he can be held accountable for what went down

The main difference is, Blizzard's inconsistent writing with what constitutes as a no-win scenario. That bad writing continues today. Did Varian really have to die on Broken Shore when the Lightforged Draenei could have exploded Gul'dan from out of orbit with the Vindicaar?

That day, there was no immediate help, there was no knowledge to reverse the plague of undeath, and no deus-ex machina was coming down to save the day. Even Uther had no idea what to do other than just likely quarantine the city and then have to kill the zombies anyway. "There must be some other way!" translates to "I don't know what to do, but I don't want to get my hands dirty." There was no humane solution to the Undead plague that immediate day, people would be turning within the hour. Nothing in all the books Jaina read in Dalaran gave her a spell to solve how to counter people turning into undead.

Arthas did the best he could in a no-win scenario, and was the only one with the balls to do so, while everyone else walked away, judging, but offering little to no alternative solutions.

[omeomorfismo]

i dont think that warcraft souls are like our brain.
there is a clear difference between magic that affect the soul (fel and necromancy) and magic affecting the mind(basically void and light, maybe arcane if you count illusion school and kirin tor tortures).
then yes, becoming an undead make you basically a sociopath, but he choosed to become one, he is fully accountable...

[Kyphael]

arthas was in control of himself up until his death, chronicle made that clear.

he wanted to turn everyone undead to make azeroth have a better chance at holding off the legion and other threats.

Argh... Chronicles, that hot mess that can't even be trusted anymore as the definitive word of God account for lore by Blizzard's own admission?

[Shiza]

A case can be made that he was as much the first victim of Frostmourne and The Lich King as his father was. He was in a no-win situation in Stratholme, and did what he thought was best. He ignored the mad-sounding ravings of an useless prophet (Medivh) and went after the perpetrator behind the crimes against his people. At this point yeah, he was a horrible Paladin, but not an evil person.

Goes to Northrend seeking out Mal'ganis, hears of Frostmourne, which can help kill Mal'ganis, and ignores his best friend's pleas. At this point he's beyond counsel, but still not evil.

Grabs Frostmourne and from this point forward, it could be argued Arthas' actions were no longer his own, as his soul was the first Frostmourne claimed, according to in-game lore. The biggest contradiction to this is Arthas; Rise of the Lich King where we learned Arthas was in fact in control after destroying Ner'zhul's very presence, but if logic was, Frostmourne took his soul, how could it be inside The Helm of Domination too? The lore isn't entirely clear, and every new tidbit of information contradicts some prior information.

His most evil act prior to picking up Frostmourne was killing the mercenaries.

If we go by Rise of the Lichking, Arthas mental condition after picking up Frostmourne would be most likely comparable to a Dissociative Identity Disorder, in which his antisocial tendencies and his social tendencies where split into two states of personality, his Death Knight Arthas Persona and his Mathias Lehner Persona, with the ending of Wrath of the Lichking hinting at the possibility that with the destruction of Frostmourne, both personalities reunited to his former Arthas Menethil Personality.

[derpkitteh]

Argh... Chronicles, that hot mess that can't even be trusted anymore as the definitive word of God account for lore by Blizzard's own admission?

this is a character a description, so i'd take it as accurate until proven otherwise.

they can always change their mind, but nothing we ever see in game really suggests he's not himself anymore.

[Kyphael]

If we go by Rise of the Lichking, Arthas mental condition after picking up Frostmourne would be most likely comparable to a Dissociative Identity Disorder, in which his antisocial tendencies and his social tendencies where split into two states of personality, his Death Knight Arthas Persona and his Mathias Lehner Persona, with the ending of Wrath of the Lichking hinting at the possibility that with the destruction of Frostmourne, both personalities reunited to his former Arthas Menethil Personality.

Seems entirely plausible. That's why I believe there is meat on the bone of an Arthas redemption story for Shadowlands. Arthas, The Lich King's story is done, complete. Arthas, the man could use a little closure given all the hints they dropped us in ICC like how he kept Jaina's locket all those years. If they thought he was irredeemable, they wouldn't have planted small things like that.

[Majerin]

In a land of magic I refuse to believe there wasn't something that could've been done to prevent the purge so yeah, he can be held accountable for what went down

Remember, too, that the Scourge is not some easily curable disease either. While I would definitely argue that the particular plague afflicting Crusader Bridenbrad is a much more potent strain given the years of practice and increased power the Lich King and his minions had it was deemed incurable by some of the most powerful beings in the Warcraft universe at the time.

There were no Naaru, Dragon Aspects of Life or Wild Gods lying about near Strathholme waiting to help someone out. Even if they somehow knew about Alexstrasza or Cenarius and they could have helped, the city would have turned by the time help was called.


As for the original topic, I am in agreement with the official(?) canon that Arthas was the first victim of Frostmourne. In terms of D&D alignment and paladins, he went from a traditional paladin to a lawful neutral gray paladin with the purging and all those antics without really being evil until he killed the mercenaries. The pull of Frostmourne caused him to fall afterwards.

[formerShandalay]

I think he can be held accountable, because he mostly chose what he did. He was given chance after chance, even after he had picked up Frostmourne and he knew and felt that what he was doing was wrong (not Stratholme, though, he was convinced he did the right thing, even though it was horrible), so I don't think he was controlled and could not chose to do something else. He could have chosen differently but didn't.

However! I do think a being like the Lich King and a weapon like Frostmourne manipulating you is also quite a big deal. Arthas was always a bit weak from a personality standpoint, insecure and hotheaded because of it and the Lich King knew how to twist the truth and sometimes straight up lie, so he could get Arthas to comply.
If we were to judge him, we'd have to judge him as a fallible mortal being. So judge him, yes, for the choices he made, of which he very well knew they were wrong. But take into account the manipulation that was tailored to his weaknesses and the sheer power behind it.

[Kyphael]

this is a character a description, so i'd take it as accurate until proven otherwise.

they can always change their mind, but nothing we ever see in game really suggests he's not himself anymore.

He kept Jaina's locket and Tirion said he was the only one keeping The Scourge from wiping out all life on Azeroth. If his ultimate plan was to always turn all of Azeroth into Undead to fend off exterior threats, then not letting The Scourge do as intended would be counter intuitive to that plot.

Now I guess the argument could be made why he didn't let The Scourge loose on Azeroth was the constant chess game singled out the ten perfect heroes he wanted to comprise his new higher lieutenants. The trials in the Argent Tournament made the heroes into his perfect future Death Knights, and if his victory in ICC was complete (IE: Uther didn't defeat him), then the next step would have been unleashing The Scourge as intended, but we can't be too sure, can we? And even so, that doesn't explain his attachment to Jaina's keepsake all this time if by this point he was an irredeemable monster.

[Rendark]

Well seeing as he is now dead, who cares? Questing in Wrath showed the good Arthas was still in there but it doesn't really matter.

[derpkitteh]

He kept Jaina's locket and Tirion said he was the only one keeping The Scourge from wiping out all life on Azeroth. If his ultimate plan was to always turn all of Azeroth into Undead to fend off exterior threats, then not letting The Scourge do as intended would be counter intuitive to that plot.

Now I guess the argument could be made why he didn't let The Scourge loose on Azeroth was the constant chess game singled out the ten perfect heroes he wanted to comprise his new higher lieutenants. The trials in the Argent Tournament made the heroes into his perfect future Death Knights, and if his victory in ICC was complete (IE: Uther didn't defeat him), then the next step would have been unleashing The Scourge as intended, but we can't be too sure, can we? And even so, that doesn't explain his attachment to Jaina's keepsake all this time if by this point he was an irredeemable monster.

well, i think keeping the locket proved he did still care about some things. it would then make sense that he would want to fight off the legion and void, if he still cares about, instead of just his own power.

idk. i think it looks like chronicle's depiction is at least closer to the truth, if not the full truth.