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  1. #241
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    lol. with the small but nice side effect that Blizz earns 7 Euros for every Token ever passed the AH, by doing nothing.

    yeah, we are all surprised that Blizz introduce Token...

    omg, you ppl are so naive...
    Who gives a shit if blizzard get money from tokens. They're 100% optional. Nobody is forcing you to buy a token.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    the same happened years ago, when they introduced token in retail. and it will happen in china again. the same way. check it out. (sadly i do not speak chinese)
    You really hate tokens don't you?

    Never mind the fact they killed off half the gold farmer market when they were introduced.

    I used to see gold sellers everywhere. Tokens made everything quiet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bloomy View Post
    yes, i fully understand that this will promote more gold farming
    Except it will have a net reduction on gold farmed.

    This is because, logically, real players who want to farm gold for their subscription through virtue of a token, are still miniscule compared to the sheer amount of gold added to the economy by rows upon rows of computers in a Chinese gold farmer centre.

    Wow tokens harm the market for illegal sellers, so they either pull out and look for more lucrative games to take their business, or they reduce their prices to compete with token (which blizzard dynamically tweaks in response to illegal gold prices if necessary) and therefore have to reduce the number of staff (farmers) to compensate.

    I'm any case, cutting down the viability and therefore number of Chinese gold farmers far far far outweighs any inflation gained by spurring some players to grind more money to pay their subs. The proof is in the pudding.
    Last edited by Will; 2020-02-29 at 12:34 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Who gives a shit if blizzard get money from tokens. They're 100% optional. Nobody is forcing you to buy a token.
    The same way LFR and Flying is optional and i've always been against those things.

    It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game.
    It ruins the classic experience.
    Everyone chooses the path of least resistance.
    Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldnt would be diagnosed with stupidity.
    Is easy money and saves a lot of hours.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    Well, no. Most people value their time, working one hour extra pays your sub (and some) in most countries, while farming however much a token will cost, will most likely take several hours.

    Also, look at the Netherlands, almost no young ones use heroin now, because the government is literally giving Heroin to the old drug addicts and give them a place to sleep it off. Thus no old junkie needs to go out on the street to sell heroin to feed their addiction. The average age of heroin addicts is 52.
    Legalizing drugs isn't as bad as some makes it sound.

    But that's a whole other topic of discussion.

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    Well of course Blizzard does stuff to earn money, that's why they made Classic aswell. They are a buisiness after all, making money is pretty much the main goal. They have bills to pay and salaries to give.
    makin as much money as possible regardless what, ideally with idiots, yes, thats their business and they make billions with that. ohhh they have to pay salaries and bills.... but what should they just do with the other 10 billions ? omg... how stupid ppl are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You say this like its only a positive. I'm sure plenty of ppl would quit. Up to them if they think itll generate enough profit and low enough outrage. I'd personally quit.
    just a math calculation. they look what they can get out with tokens and paid services, think about how many would leave therefore based on past descissions like that and how much they loose with that lost subs, and when the first profit is higher than the second, they do it. else not. imo.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    Those are averages, but I didn't do a clear job of indicating that (needed more ~'s). By going to extremes like you did, a buyer could also get most or even all items if non-leather wearers only got accessories, but that wasn't the point. The point was what could be expected in non-outlier cases. Perhaps an average of 23.5 is a bit high, but that probably just means the chance of getting 24 items on a DH would be more in the 20th percentile than the 45th. Still non-trivial. I did also only use 10 bosses when the current tier has 12.
    Except they're not averages, at all. Your numbers (24.5 loot per raid) are "best case scenario" because they assume each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use, from every single boss.

    "Averages" would be an intermediary between "best case" and "worst case" scenario. And, before you say it: no, "23.5/2 so 11.75 is the average" is incorrect, because the chance for each party member to get a piece of loot your demon hunter can use is not 50%. For example, let's take a look at Mythic Maut: a cloth-wearing character has zero chances of getting a piece of loot that your demon hunter can use, and a plate-wearing character has one in three chances of dropping something you can use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Like a lady in 1915 showing her ankles, you are showing far too much here.
    And now I'm reminded of Weird Al Yankovic's "Amish Paradise" music video. Thank you for that, I guess. >.>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game.
    You don't skip any part of the game, much less any "major" parts.

    It ruins the classic experience.
    Have you played in the Chinese servers to know how the "classic experience" is for them, there?

    Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldnt would be diagnosed with stupidity.
    "Luckily" for you, you can't and won't be able to buy tokens in classic WoW, unless you're in China, playing in chinese servers with a chinese client and paying in chinese money.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    1. Probably just in China.

    2. The only real way to get rid of illigal gold sellers. (And thus botters and account hackers (if that is even a thing in Classic? For sure was a huge problem in Vanilla))

    3. Doesn't really harm anyone. Farming gold in Classic isn't exactly difficult. Most classes can do 60-100g/h farms.


    Adding game tokens to the game was the best move Blizzard ever did.
    Making it where I dont have to do number 3 means I wont really be on the game.
    19KbBmTBCvHyA3eHFhP8UCnbx2JoYA3az6

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You don't skip any part of the game, much less any "major" parts.
    Farming gold is not a major part of classic? Could you elaborate and explain?
    Ive been farming everyday...so what am i doing? Nothing? Imaginary content?

    edit: Is it confirmed is just for china?
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2020-02-29 at 05:40 PM.

  7. #247
    Fluffy Kitten MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    edit: Is it confirmed is just for china?
    Despite the entirely misleading thread title the announcement was for China only. There has not been one single word from Blizzard U.S. that it's ever going to happen outside of China. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on here.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  8. #248
    No thank you.

    Classic does not need retail's dirty pay to win feature.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post

    edit: Is it confirmed is just for china?
    This is a frequent flaw in your logic, not just in this thread, but in most. It has been confirmed in china, and at this stage, there has been ZERO talk of it being released anywhere other than china. Now you want us to provide confirmation that it is only for china.....

    It is not up to anyone to prove that it is not being released elsewhere, it is 100% up to you to provide any evidence that there has been any talk, let alone confirmation, from any official blizzard channel that they intend to release it elsewhere.

    You frequently ask users to prove a negative, and although not always "impossible" like some claim, in most of your scenarios, it is - you are literally asking us to find proof something doesnt exist.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is a frequent flaw in your logic, not just in this thread, but in most. It has been confirmed in china, and at this stage, there has been ZERO talk of it being released anywhere other than china. Now you want us to provide confirmation that it is only for china.....

    It is not up to anyone to prove that it is not being released elsewhere, it is 100% up to you to provide any evidence that there has been any talk, let alone confirmation, from any official blizzard channel that they intend to release it elsewhere.

    You frequently ask users to prove a negative, and although not always "impossible" like some claim, in most of your scenarios, it is - you are literally asking us to find proof something doesnt exist.
    Ok, then.

    By your logic there is absolutely nothing to discuss in this thread.
    Might aswell close it.

    Since there is no use having a discussion about a possible scenario of the token being in EU & US.
    Lets say nothing.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Ok, then.

    By your logic there is absolutely nothing to discuss in this thread.
    Might aswell close it.

    Since there is no use having a discussion about a possible scenario of the token being in EU & US.
    Lets say nothing.
    Yet another logical fallacy - absolutely nothing in my post suggests a conversation cannot take place. The discussion around "what if" is absolutely fine - but you are for some reason refusing to accept that the only information we have at this time is that it is being introduced into the Chinese version of the game - then want some "confirmation" that this is the case - that information is right in front of you - and as with multiple other threads, you refuse to accept what is right in front of your face.

    You have a habit of replying to a post, without actually addressing anything at all in the post - instead preferring to deflect and shift the conversation into another direction without discussing the points raised.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yet another logical fallacy - absolutely nothing in my post suggests a conversation cannot take place. The discussion around "what if" is absolutely fine - but you are for some reason refusing to accept that the only information we have at this time is that it is being introduced into the Chinese version of the game - then want some "confirmation" that this is the case - that information is right in front of you - and as with multiple other threads, you refuse to accept what is right in front of your face.

    You have a habit of replying to a post, without actually addressing anything at all in the post - instead preferring to deflect and shift the conversation into another direction without discussing the points raised.
    Im completely lost with your posts.
    My english is verrrrry poor and when i "discuss" i only know how to be on the offense. I dont know how to have a nice and little well put friendly post.

    But by reading your post...are you saying there is confirmation? And that the information is "right in front of me"?
    No.
    There is no confirmation and the information is not right in front of me.

    The information in front of me is "China = WOW Token"
    Nothing else.

    There is a 0% chance the token will come here? Just because is china?
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2020-02-29 at 11:30 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im completely lost with your posts.
    My english is verrrrry poor and when i "discuss" i only know how to be on the offense. I dont know how to have a nice and little well put friendly post.

    But by reading your post...are you saying there is confirmation? And that the information is "right in front of me"?
    No.
    There is no confirmation and the information is not right in front of me.

    The information in front of me is "China = WOW Token"
    Nothing else.

    There is a 0% chance the token will come here? Just because is china?
    There is 100% proof that the token is being introduced in china. That is right in front of you.

    There is 0% proof that the token is being introduced outside of china.

    You are asking for proof that there is no evidence it is planned for release outside of china - something impossible to provide. You are then trying to argue that because we cannot provide said "evidence" that it very well might be introduced - this is a massive logical fallacy.

    The burden of proof lies with you - you need to provide evidence or proof that it is planned to be released outside of china, otherwise the point is moot.

    Let me try to simplify it - i am an alien - i am a higher being sent here to post on this forum - i am from a galaxy you have never heard of, and my iq would be measured in your units around 12,000,000. Unless you can prove i am not, it must be true?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There is 100% proof that the token is being introduced in china. That is right in front of you.

    There is 0% proof that the token is being introduced outside of china.

    You are asking for proof that there is no evidence it is planned for release outside of china - something impossible to provide. You are then trying to argue that because we cannot provide said "evidence" that it very well might be introduced - this is a massive logical fallacy.

    The burden of proof lies with you - you need to provide evidence or proof that it is planned to be released outside of china, otherwise the point is moot.

    Let me try to simplify it - i am an alien - i am a higher being sent here to post on this forum - i am from a galaxy you have never heard of, and my iq would be measured in your units around 12,000,000. Unless you can prove i am not, it must be true?
    But im just having a discussion in case Blizzard decides to implement it here.
    Am i doing something wrong?

    There is no evidence it will..but there is also no evidence it wont.

    In fact...IMO, is extremely probable it will release here. Because is a huge opportunity for blizzard to make extra money.
    And who doesnt like money?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Legalize botting! Ppl are doing it anyway. Just like you can type /afk to go afk, they should introduce /bot. It auto queues you to AV and passively generates rep and honor. Ppl are doing it anyway, let's legitimize it.
    Yeah, lets call a fish an orange while we're at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    makin as much money as possible regardless what, ideally with idiots, yes, thats their business and they make billions with that. ohhh they have to pay salaries and bills.... but what should they just do with the other 10 billions ? omg... how stupid ppl are.

    - - - Updated - - -
    So I take you it you about nothing on how to run a company, explains a lot
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  16. #256
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    makin as much money as possible regardless what, ideally with idiots, yes, thats their business and they make billions with that. ohhh they have to pay salaries and bills.... but what should they just do with the other 10 billions ? omg... how stupid ppl are.
    Is this just a Blizzard thing that you have a hardon with..where they aren't allowed to make as much money as they can from "idiots" - or do you extend this to every corporation?

    Like....you must be raging 24/7 against Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Asus, Coca cola, Aldi, Lidl, Nestle, Procter&Gamble and "insert any major and minor business in the world"...and that is even before you could go real deep and start foaming from your mouth against hedgefonds and other despicable shit. Companies that are into deforestation of the rain forest. How about weapon manufacturers? How about companies exporting and selling landmines that kill and mutilate ppl...

    But yeah...Blizzard and the remote possibility that tokens might come to classic. Because...muh...this is a WoW forum so nothing else matters?

    Also..pre-emptively...fuck your strawman arguments.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    And you think that’s how it works when I fact you are mistaken. The one buy for game time has excess gold to spend, it is not being put on being spent so prices for stuff will not change for it. But since person 2 is selling it for the purpose of spending the gold, stuff now starts selling out faster and prices go up.
    That's not how it works. You would need to have a lot of people doing it to have any material effect on the ah. Tokens didn't cause the increase in prices. The follower table did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    actually your argument proves otherwise. if Blizzard wanted to introduce the token into Classic, they would've done it at launch. if they are truly as money grabbing as people say, they would've done it at launch. but they didn't, because they have no plans to.
    If you really believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.

    It doesn't matter who the person is, wether it's an acti or a blizz exec, you can be 100 percent sure there is someone asking the question "how can we get more money from classic". They would've already pushed for the shop, transfers, character services and the token before release. Some money grubbing exec who's bonus is tied to revenue for classic has already asked "how much will it cost to make classic+" with the intention of turning it into a retail clone. The people who love wow, even though they can seem pretty incompetent at times, are saying "we can't do that, it will destroy classic". From a business point of view, tokens seem harmless but people would lose their shit. So for now, why not try a market that is more level headed?

    People trusted blizzard to do #nochanges, which is best interpreted as once it's released, no more changes but here we are. Multiple game changes and a system change later...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Notice the issue here? Notice the bias? You completely ignore the fact that if 23.5 is the average, you jump straight to "not saying everyone gets dozens of items, but many people do" without acknowledging the flip side that "many people dont".
    "buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid"

    From the dictionary: "can" - used to indicate possibility

    In other words, not guaranteed.

    As far as the 60, going back it looks like he did use mythic when referring to it (I thought he hadn't and only done so with the dozens). I apologize for missing that. Based on that he was basically saying the boostee gets basically every single item that drops (12 bosses x 5 drops per boss) which does feel a little silly, I'll agree. I've had guilds that did it that way in the past, but that was under master loot for ease, and never done on mythic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except they're not averages, at all. Your numbers (24.5 loot per raid) are "best case scenario" because they assume each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use, from every single boss.
    I don't think you're understanding where the numbers came from.

    Each player in the raid has a slightly higher than 20% chance to get loot off a given boss (assuming personal loot still gives "extra" drops).

    Thus 6 leather wearers times 20% chance of useful loot per leather wearer will produce an average of 1.2 drops per boss (in this particular case, I assumed that the unusable weapons from non-dh leather users would be canceled out by the personal loot extra drops). If I were assuming "each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use" then that number would be 6 would it not (one for each leather user)?

    It's certainly possible that I overestimated things on the non-leather users as i was just guessing. They probably are high, at least in this tier because two of the accessories (neck/cloak which can be used by any spec) don't drop.

    I also did assume duplicates would be handed over as that's always been the case in sales I've been involved in, but perhaps that's the exception and not the rule. But as I said, since there's only 16 slots (with 2 currently reserved), most of the time you'd come away with 20 or less under that restriction (since for the most part there's two drops per slot, maybe a bit more for weapons/trinkets depending on class/spec).

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Is this just a Blizzard thing that you have a hardon with..where they aren't allowed to make as much money as they can from "idiots" - or do you extend this to every corporation?

    Like....you must be raging 24/7 against Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Asus, Coca cola, Aldi, Lidl, Nestle, Procter&Gamble and "insert any major and minor business in the world"...and that is even before you could go real deep and start foaming from your mouth against hedgefonds and other despicable shit. Companies that are into deforestation of the rain forest. How about weapon manufacturers? How about companies exporting and selling landmines that kill and mutilate ppl...

    But yeah...Blizzard and the remote possibility that tokens might come to classic. Because...muh...this is a WoW forum so nothing else matters?

    Also..pre-emptively...fuck your strawman arguments.
    for me its a general thing, but depends on behaviour and company, and HOW they try to milk it and how hard they try.

    example: there is nothing wrong with MS pushing Azure in front of your face every second tool you use, but nothing else. its another thing when google try to actively hide their private settings, use bad defaults and try to grab your data everywhere, because they make their money with pushing up ad values. i dont know how firm you are with the IT business, sw development, dev ops, etc. but Google i.e. completely piss on Android as a profit maker (the software itself, not the platform). They can kick it out the window and loose nearly nothing (with makin money with the sw licenses). this may sound strange to you bevause android is everywhere. but in reality this is not googles core business. makin money via ad rating is. so they developed and introduced android, what is original open source, and give it like a gift, nearly for free, to every hardware manufacterer, because they had to spread it as much as possible. its a platform for them, where they can upscale their ad revenues and rating by reaching such a giant user base and all their data. this is nothing conspiracy shit (just search the interwebz) or such. it is commonly known and thats just the business model of google.

    why i tell you this ?

    there is, for me, a difference in how you acting, whats your product, your values and your philosophy is. once, in the back old days, when blizz said „we try to make money with high quality by high investment“ i can respect that, even when they invest millions to make billions. but today the product is no longer in the foreground, the concepts changed (to cash grab systems, good quarter numbers instead long term investment, and other things) and the way HOW they make money, changed. the agresivity as well as the way they do it. and this is not my way.

    so yes, you may be somewhat right in what you say. with other companies that i dont like and the way they behave, i just not use em or pay them. the problem with blizz is that i started using a product of them in a era where it was fine to me. i invested a lot of time in it and maybe do not wanna give up all my investments, even when the company today sucks. maybe i cant just not let it go, when i should. and that conflict produces anger that is posted here. and i am sure with this reasons i am not alone.

    on the other side, i never comitted myself to cheap shit 15 years ago or 10 years ago. its like your company tell you how your work will look like and a few years later your work is shit. so imo its fine to be angry and go like „i never signed for THAT“. on the other way you just can leave your company (if you dont have to feed family and so on...).

    so, yeah, idk. i think the truth is somewhere there in the middle.

    and sorry, but i will not fuck my strawberry arguments. but thats ok. if you go out loud, you have to earn the echo.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-03-02 at 02:05 AM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    I don't think you're understanding where the numbers came from.

    Each player in the raid has a slightly higher than 20% chance to get loot off a given boss (assuming personal loot still gives "extra" drops).

    Thus 6 leather wearers times 20% chance of useful loot per leather wearer will produce an average of 1.2 drops per boss
    (in this particular case, I assumed that the unusable weapons from non-dh leather users would be canceled out by the personal loot extra drops). If I were assuming "each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use" then that number would be 6 would it not (one for each leather user)?

    It's certainly possible that I overestimated things on the non-leather users as i was just guessing. They probably are high, at least in this tier because two of the accessories (neck/cloak which can be used by any spec) don't drop.

    I also did assume duplicates would be handed over as that's always been the case in sales I've been involved in, but perhaps that's the exception and not the rule. But as I said, since there's only 16 slots (with 2 currently reserved), most of the time you'd come away with 20 or less under that restriction (since for the most part there's two drops per slot, maybe a bit more for weapons/trinkets depending on class/spec).
    That's not how percentages work. 6 chances of 20% does NOT equal 120%. What you're basically saying is that you have 100% chance of rolling a 6 on a six-sided dice if you throw six dice at the same time.

    Oh, look: I just did that, and I got one 5, three 4, one 3, and one 2.

    On top of that, saying "averages" is meaningless, since we're talking about a single run. People that buy runs usually don't keep "buying runs" every single week, over and over, for months on end, for those "averages" to actually apply.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

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