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  1. #261
    There are tons of places where anyone can buy gold now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy gold are already doing it. Opposing the WoW token is pretty silly, it will just move some of that money from random sellers to Blizzard... So this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Is there a definition that p2w is inherently bad and if so....who "won" because of tokens?
    Blizzard wins. People buying gold are the real losers.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    There are tons of places where anyone can buy gold now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy gold are already doing it. Opposing the WoW token is pretty silly, it will just move some of that money from random sellers to Blizzard... So this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.
    There are a ton of places where anyone can buy a bot now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy a bot are already doing it. Opposing the wow bot token is pretty silly, it will just move some of the money from random sellers to blizzard...so this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Everything you just described is content. Your definition of content is things that are designed to give you something to do.

    Walk around SW RPing? That's content. Blizzard designed SW to give you a place to express yourself and your fantasies?

    Fishing? That's content. There's a leveling system and quests in there too. Allows you to level up your cooking if you want and provides a source of income.

    Farming gold is content. Prepending the word meaningful is irrelevent. For most it is meaningful because it is content that is fine to reach a goal. Sometimes it's a mount. It can be other things too.
    Well, there's content, and then there's meaningful content.

    And while there's nothing wrong with enjoying meaningless content, there's no real harm in skipping it either.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I don't give a shit about that. Barring the endless risk to your account and financial information, many of the people farming that gold are practically slaves. Forced to do it for 12+ hours at a time, often from stolen/compromised accounts, and even using people in chinese prisons.

    And don't get me started on pieces of shit like Steve Bannon literally being a CEO of gold-farming operations.

    So yeah, putting all of that ^ out of business is A-okay with me.
    Time to start undressing and throwing your electronics in the trash. Because you know, that kind of labor isn't contained to WOoorld of Warcraft golds.

    If you want to protest "slave labor", go all out. Don't stop at the convenient rationalization that let's you buy "clean" virtual gold.

  6. #266
    The Lightbringer Twoddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    And who doesnt like money?
    It's one of the reasons where humans fucked up.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's not how percentages work. 6 chances of 20% does NOT equal 120%. What you're basically saying is that you have 100% chance of rolling a 6 on a six-sided dice if you throw six dice at the same time.
    No, I'm not. I'm saying that 6 chances of a 20% success rate, run an infinite number of times, will result in 1.2 successes on average. Why is this relevant? Because the original quote is:
    buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid
    "can" denotes possibility. From your example, I could say "you can roll a 6 on a 6 sided die." That's a true statement and is distinctly different from "you will roll a 6 on a 6 sided die."

    Now, I could also say "you can roll 100 sixes in 100 rolls of a 6 sided die." Still true, technically, but astronomically rare. So much so that if you threw dice your whole life, you'd almost certainly never hit it. So I decided not to lean on just what was technically possible, but what was reasonably possible.

    Let's take the statement "you can roll at least 17 sixes in 100 roles of a 6 sided die." Seems a lot more reasonable, but how do you support such a supposition? The odds of rolling a 6 on a 6 sided die are 1/6 which is ~16.7%. Over 100 rolls, on average, you would have 16.7 sixes. From there it's easy to estimate that you'll roll at least 17 sixes a little less than half the time, which to me is reasonably possible (ie not a statistical anomaly). That's all I did in my analysis, just there were more calculations involved because the odds were different depending on the raid makeup. Now, you can argue that my analysis is inaccurate because of the assumptions I used (since it would take an inordinate amount of time to gather the actual numbers) and I've already agreed to as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    On top of that, saying "averages" is meaningless, since we're talking about a single run. People that buy runs usually don't keep "buying runs" every single week, over and over, for months on end, for those "averages" to actually apply.
    This feels like a weird statement to me. The only thing you can say with any certainty about a single run is that you'll get at least 0 items and no more than the maximum number that could possibly drop. But what's the point of such a statement. That's why we deal with probabilities and averages and why they do have meaning. Maybe think of it less as a single person doing multiple runs than the multitudes of buyers that purchase a single run. That in all the people that have bought boosts in bfa, some of them have gotten dozens of items in a single mythic run.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    No, I'm not. I'm saying that 6 chances of a 20% success rate, run an infinite number of times, will result in 1.2 successes on average. Why is this relevant? Because the original quote is:
    Check your quote again. It says, specifically: ONE mythic raid. Can it? Yes. But it also can net you ZERO loot. In fact: it's much more likely for you to come out with ZERO loot than you are to come out with "dozens of items" from a BfA paid run. Notice how the post in question is very, very dishonest in their wording:
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid,in classic you are lucky if you get 2-3
    The poster is acting as if it's commonplace for one to come out of a BfA's mythic raid paid run with "dozens of items", but turns around and says you have to be "lucky" to get 2-3 pieces in Classic from a paid run.

    "can" denotes possibility. From your example, I could say "you can roll a 6 on a 6 sided die." That's a true statement and is distinctly different from "you will roll a 6 on a 6 sided die."

    Now, I could also say "you can roll 100 sixes in 100 rolls of a 6 sided die." Still true, technically, but astronomically rare. So much so that if you threw dice your whole life, you'd almost certainly never hit it. So I decided not to lean on just what was technically possible, but what was reasonably possible.

    Let's take the statement "you can roll at least 17 sixes in 100 roles of a 6 sided die." Seems a lot more reasonable, but how do you support such a supposition? The odds of rolling a 6 on a 6 sided die are 1/6 which is ~16.7%. Over 100 rolls, on average, you would have 16.7 sixes. From there it's easy to estimate that you'll roll at least 17 sixes a little less than half the time, which to me is reasonably possible (ie not a statistical anomaly). That's all I did in my analysis, just there were more calculations involved because the odds were different depending on the raid makeup. Now, you can argue that my analysis is inaccurate because of the assumptions I used (since it would take an inordinate amount of time to gather the actual numbers) and I've already agreed to as much.
    And you know that? I believe that the chance you have to come out with "dozens of items" from a single mythic raid run (again, as evidenced by the post you quoted from), that means you need at least an average of two pieces of loot to drop per Mythic boss that your demon hunter can use (as per your example). Each mythic boss drops 4 pieces of loot. Can you imagine how lucky one must be to get that much loot from a single run, two pieces per boss on average?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    It is kinda unbelievable to see so many people acting like the token is OK.
    what is unbeliveble ?

    that most of players are 30+ with succesfull jobs and families for whom 20-40 euro a month on gold is nothing ?

    not everyone stayed in their parents basement playing 8 hours a day and living in fantasy world.

    normal people log in - level up or raid and log out.

    dont need selfservice in form of mindlessly farming mobs for gold.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    It is kinda unbelievable to see so many people acting like the token is OK.

    It is the absolute worst change possible for Classic WoW.
    I agree. Thank goodness that is not happening, now, is it?

    But hey, let's not see the big picture. Let's just narrow our mind into saying "I want gold that guy wants to sell gold what's the big deal?"
    The bolded part is just FULL of delicious, delicious irony. Why don't you take your own advice, and "see the big picture" by reading the actual news about the WoW Token, and realize this is for China only.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In fact: it's much more likely for you to come out with ZERO loot than you are to come out with "dozens of items" from a BfA paid run.
    Going to boil the whole thing down to a Binomial probability calculated using https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

    6 leather wearers out of 20 raiders = 30% chance of usable loot
    12 bosses x 5 pieces of loot per boss = 60 pieces of loot (it's 5 pieces of loot for a mythic boss unless that's changed since 8.1)

    P(X = 0) < 0.000001 (in other words, virtually impossible)
    P(X >= 24) = 0.063 (6.3%)

    The odds of usable loot should really be higher because of rings, trinkets, and usable weapons from the non-leather wearers (of course subtracting out unusable weapons from leather wearers too) is not insignificant. Raising that to even 40% chance gives greater than even odds at coming out with at least 24 items: P(X >= 24) = 0.55 (55%) Either way dozens beats out zero items. A lot of that comes from the fact that this last tier has 12 bosses as less lowers the odds drastically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The poster is acting as if it's commonplace for one to come out of a BfA's mythic raid paid run with "dozens of items", but turns around and says you have to be "lucky" to get 2-3 pieces in Classic from a paid run.
    Now, let's do the same thing with a Molten Core run in classic. Its 2 pieces of loot per boss right? Is there any exception to that? I don't raid in classic. We'll say Rogue since DH don't exist yet.

    1/8 chance for it to be the right tier.
    1/4 non-set leather
    1/2 melee rings/neck/cape
    1/2 usable weapon
    Average it all up and I'll guess 30% chance of useful item.
    10 bosses x 2 drops each = 20 drops

    P(X >= 2) = 0.99 (99%)
    P(X >= 3) = 0.96 (96%)

    So your issue with the second part of the quote, that it's "lucky" to have 2-3 items is definitely correct. Just playing around with it you'd have better than even odds to get 6 items, so that's more comparable to the dozens number.

  12. #272
    The Lightbringer Twoddle's Avatar
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    What the fuck is a Mythic boss?

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what is unbeliveble ?

    that most of players are 30+ with succesfull jobs and families for whom 20-40 euro a month on gold is nothing ?

    not everyone stayed in their parents basement playing 8 hours a day and living in fantasy world.

    normal people log in - level up or raid and log out.

    dont need selfservice in form of mindlessly farming mobs for gold.
    ye, the issue here is clearly the price tag. 20 euros omfg.

    Dude you understood literally nothing.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The bolded part is just FULL of delicious, delicious irony. Why don't you take your own advice, and "see the big picture" by reading the actual news about the WoW Token, and realize this is for China only.
    Who knows this is for china only?
    Mind giving us a source of Blizzard blue confirmation?

    Blizzard is radio silent on this, as far as i know.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Who knows this is for china only?
    Mind giving us a source of Blizzard blue confirmation?

    Blizzard is radio silent on this, as far as i know.
    How about the fact that, so far, none of all the changes and additions to the game done for China only have been done to the rest of the world? For anyone with a modicum of desire to actually look out for facts instead of spreading "doom-and-gloom" and "WoW is dying!" would know that WoW operates differently in China than the rest of the world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    Going to boil the whole thing down to a Binomial probability calculated using https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

    6 leather wearers out of 20 raiders = 30% chance of usable loot
    12 bosses x 5 pieces of loot per boss = 60 pieces of loot (it's 5 pieces of loot for a mythic boss unless that's changed since 8.1)

    P(X = 0) < 0.000001 (in other words, virtually impossible)
    P(X >= 24) = 0.063 (6.3%)

    The odds of usable loot should really be higher because of rings, trinkets, and usable weapons from the non-leather wearers (of course subtracting out unusable weapons from leather wearers too) is not insignificant. Raising that to even 40% chance gives greater than even odds at coming out with at least 24 items: P(X >= 24) = 0.55 (55%) Either way dozens beats out zero items. A lot of that comes from the fact that this last tier has 12 bosses as less lowers the odds drastically.
    The problem of "boiling down" is that it ignores important details. For example: it assumes that every single piece of loot those leather-wearers get will be useful to your demon hunter. But DHs cannot use staves and polearms that would normally drop for druids and monks, and cannot use maces and daggers that would normally drop for monks and rogues, which would skew the results of the first calculation up, and the results of the second calculation down.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    How about the fact that, so far, none of all the changes and additions to the game done for China only have been done to the rest of the world? For anyone with a modicum of desire to actually look out for facts instead of spreading "doom-and-gloom" and "WoW is dying!" would know that WoW operates differently in China than the rest of the world.
    But that is called an opinion? We dont know for a fact.
    Havent we seen chinese mounts come to the US and EU?

    Who knows?

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    There are a ton of places where anyone can buy a bot now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy a bot are already doing it. Opposing the wow bot token is pretty silly, it will just move some of the money from random sellers to blizzard...so this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.
    Yes, because the insane inflation on Retail is exactly what we need to see in Classic which just pushes even more people to buy gold. So you end up in a situation where you still end up spending considerable amount of time farming just to buy basics, or feed Blizz real money just to buy things you used to be able to afford with minimal farming or just selling a few things on the AH.

    Furthermore, Blizz making more money doesn't equal them sinking more money into the game. The vast majority of the profits are just going to executive bonuses. It is true that the company needs money to survive, but giving them extra doesn't equate to them giving back more. When my projects make higher profits, I have never ever hired more people because of those profits...that is how corporations work. They will give you the bare minimum that they think earns them the most profit, and anything extra is just icing for them to slurp up for themselves.

    Sorry, but it isn't nearly the simple slam dunk that you think it is.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The problem of "boiling down" is that it ignores important details. For example: it assumes that every single piece of loot those leather-wearers get will be useful to your demon hunter. But DHs cannot use staves and polearms that would normally drop for druids and monks, and cannot use maces and daggers that would normally drop for monks and rogues, which would skew the results of the first calculation up, and the results of the second calculation down.
    The point of using the 30% number was NOT that every item from a leather wearer would be usable. It was that the odds of getting a non-usable item from the 6 leather wearers (weapons) is significantly less than getting a usable item from the 14 non-leather wearers (rings, melee/tank/generic trinkets, weapons). Thus it was a safe choice for a starting place. The actual odds have to be at least 30%.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Yes, because the insane inflation on Retail is exactly what we need to see in Classic which just pushes even more people to buy gold. So you end up in a situation where you still end up spending considerable amount of time farming just to buy basics, or feed Blizz real money just to buy things you used to be able to afford with minimal farming or just selling a few things on the AH.

    Furthermore, Blizz making more money doesn't equal them sinking more money into the game. The vast majority of the profits are just going to executive bonuses. It is true that the company needs money to survive, but giving them extra doesn't equate to them giving back more. When my projects make higher profits, I have never ever hired more people because of those profits...that is how corporations work. They will give you the bare minimum that they think earns them the most profit, and anything extra is just icing for them to slurp up for themselves.

    Sorry, but it isn't nearly the simple slam dunk that you think it is.
    I dont understand what you're getting at. I'm just poking fun at the guy by replacing gold token with bot token. "Things already happen, so legalize them" is a retarded argument and I'm just laughing at it.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    But that is called an opinion? We dont know for a fact.
    Havent we seen chinese mounts come to the US and EU?

    Who knows?
    ... Are you really comparing cash shop mounts, which have absolutely zero impact on the game experience, to actual QoL features like the WoW Token? Are you honestly that dense, ignoring how games and game companies work differently in China?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

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