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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevryn View Post
    I think whatever R.i.o score you get for completing the dungeon you should also get the same amount subtracted if you leave before let's say 20 deaths
    Then I suicide 20 times and leave then. Or I just TP out and stay in group. Or I go afk...


    What's up with all these "rules" that are not even thought twice about?
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2020-08-07 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    just left a +15 freehold because the tank was pulling one pack at at time in a group with all dps 475+... taking ages to pull too because he was marking everything in the pack...
    As you should.
    That's what is great about m+. If you find that the.pug is of substandard you can punish them. This thread should be renamed "a pug left my m+. Help me to be better"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    Just browsing through this thread validates every fear that humanity is still a lost race. The pure selfishness and unwillingness to help anyone but yourself in some of you is utterly disgusting to say the least.
    That's where you are wrong buddy.
    The fact that people are selfish is proof that evolution likes it. Selfishness is a trait we have had since the fight against the other hominaids. If you don't like it then invite rebellion.
    Fughting Being selfish is going no where and advocating against it sounds like neanderthal propaganda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Here comes the sad truth:

    If a higher R.IO player joins a medicre group and can't single-handedly BOOST the whole group to compensate the lack of experience - it just means that the "HIGH R.IO" player cheesed his/her way into rating with easy weeks or got boosted.
    Absolutely agree! (Before someone puts words in my mouth: you gotta be careful what "high rio" means, and what a "mediocre group" means. It's easy to come up with infinite silly counter-examples. But in general the above is true.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    While you can all argue that its a toxic player, in reality its way more sad, because its just a mediocre player with cheesed rating so he fails as soon as the experience from a specific rating is demanded.

    Happens a lot with FOTM classes/specs that got simply carried UP in rating because of the high demand for specific comps and those players simply cant carry their own weight in normal groups.

    While its a minor annoyance if someone like that joins/leaves your weekly-15, you can be sure that those kind of player will at some point get the message either way about their lack of gaming skills and will just pause/leave the game for the better.
    It's tempting to condemn any players who have the same mechanical skills and experience but a much higher score than yourself. But that's excessive. Many of them might be humble and not attempt to claim any M+ superiority over you, to start with. I can think of many reasonable examples and personalities even just off the top of my friend list. There are all kinds of reasons for that, arising from inactivity or general lack of interest (combined with being in top raiding guild, or just having hardcore M+ friends).

    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    I run into way less toxic people in higher keys than in low keys. This is my personnal experience : MOST of the time my higher keys (19-20-21s) are run in a 4man premade and we look for a 5th. We don't time all our runs (because derps happens) but no one is toxic about it, and the pug usually is pretty cool.
    You said you mostly run in 4-man premade, but the same is true in full pugs. The higher the key the less likely you will run into full toxic people. One reason is because higher level pugs require everyone to join voice comms, and it's much-much harder to be toxic to someone on voice as opposed to just in chat. Another reason is that in general people who achieved more in the game are somewhat less frustrated about their progress, there is less need to lash out (but some frustration is always there). The higher progress also means players are better at identifying what went wrong in each case, so it's easier to just work on fixing the problems and staying constructive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    My argument was more "if everyone's an asshole, maybe their not". If you cannot time keys while pugging either :

    1) you just suck and are throwing the key/trying to do something way above your skill lvl (regardless of IO score).

    2) you don't know how to weed out bad players.

    3) you are just unlucky with pugs.
    I agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    I'm always polite and civil, I've been playing since Vanilla so I remember the old days of "having a reputation" before LFD and cross server grouping was a thing.
    I have been playing on and off since TBC, and I always thought the introduction of LFD in WotLK was a big loss. I wonder whether that's one of the reasons I like the high M+ pugging community (and I assume the sense of community might be similar across a larger number of world top raiding guilds). Once the number of participating players gets low enough (thousands), you start repeatedly seeing familiar faces and befriend some of them. You get more of a big-community feeling again. You don't meet all players, and you don't know 98% of the players well at all, but you know they exist and know some very basic info about many of them.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-08-07 at 09:45 AM.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Here comes the sad truth:

    If a higher R.IO player joins a medicre group and can't single-handedly BOOST the whole group to compensate the lack of experience - it just means that the "HIGH R.IO" player cheesed his/her way into rating with easy weeks or got boosted.

    While you can all argue that its a toxic player, in reality its way more sad, because its just a mediocre player with cheesed rating so he fails as soon as the experience from a specific rating is demanded.

    Happens a lot with FOTM classes/specs that got simply carried UP in rating because of the high demand for specific comps and those players simply cant carry their own weight in normal groups.

    While its a minor annoyance if someone like that joins/leaves your weekly-15, you can be sure that those kind of player will at some point get the message either way about their lack of gaming skills and will just pause/leave the game for the better.

    This is something that was allways in WoW since Vanilla days. If a progression raider with gear joined a bad UBRS run, some just moaned and left and some carried a 3 groups of players with impressive solo play and/or gave constructive feedback to just make it work.

    15 years later and its the same in the game, nothing changed. Skilled players can pull not only their own weight but carry a group even if it strugles while others that simply play medicore/bad need the pull of a group to get anything done. Its funny and sad if you think about it, how little the typical players in WoW changes even in 15years, its like a comedy show with the same old characters.
    Really? so when you make M+ groups you invite someone with a high score to carry you, and if they don't it's sad and pathetic? I think you expecting to be carried is sad. Pull your own weight or don't cry when people leave your keys.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Here comes the sad truth:

    If a higher R.IO player joins a medicre group and can't single-handedly BOOST the whole group to compensate the lack of experience - it just means that the "HIGH R.IO" player cheesed his/her way into rating with easy weeks or got boosted.

    While you can all argue that its a toxic player, in reality its way more sad, because its just a mediocre player with cheesed rating so he fails as soon as the experience from a specific rating is demanded.

    Happens a lot with FOTM classes/specs that got simply carried UP in rating because of the high demand for specific comps and those players simply cant carry their own weight in normal groups.

    While its a minor annoyance if someone like that joins/leaves your weekly-15, you can be sure that those kind of player will at some point get the message either way about their lack of gaming skills and will just pause/leave the game for the better.

    This is something that was allways in WoW since Vanilla days. If a progression raider with gear joined a bad UBRS run, some just moaned and left and some carried a 3 groups of players with impressive solo play and/or gave constructive feedback to just make it work.

    15 years later and its the same in the game, nothing changed. Skilled players can pull not only their own weight but carry a group even if it strugles while others that simply play medicore/bad need the pull of a group to get anything done. Its funny and sad if you think about it, how little the typical players in WoW changes even in 15years, its like a comedy show with the same old characters.
    Well. If I join a key where everyone is, let's say 3k or lower, you can be darn well sure I can't always carry the group. It's actually a bigger pain to keep those people alive in 15-20 keys than it is in 20-25. I also do less dps since I have to heal more, which doesn't really help..

    Just because someone is 5k+ it doesn't mean it's a guaranteed success. You'd be surprised how much people can mess up.
    Hi

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    just left a +15 freehold because the tank was pulling one pack at at time in a group with all dps 475+... taking ages to pull too because he was marking everything in the pack...
    Go away troll and let this thread die already
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2020-08-08 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Infracted
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    What is a good route for Atal these days? I ran two Atal runs this week with two different routes and it feels like they both suck. The "good" route involves some cheese where one of the dps lure mobs away from obelisks and that's not something that you can reliably do in pugs. What is a good Atal route that pugs won't mess up?
    If you don't want to do any "cheesing" with the average PUG, up to +15 you can do this:

    1) Go straight to Rezan
    2) From Rezan, go on Vol'kaal side, pull first groups there, till the 1st obelisk
    3) Kite this obelisk mob to the top of the stairs near Vol'kaal (on the opposite side of the big middle group)
    4) Pull the group with 2 reanimated guardians near the next obelisk. Put a mark on the caster and kill it first to ease the pull
    5) Take this obelisk to Vol'kaal
    6) After boss, exit through rifts and jump down to the stairs
    7) Clean all mobs you need to go back to entrance, and head for priestess Alun'za side
    8) Kill 1st group near obelisk on Alun'za side (no need to pull the 2nd group behind)
    9) Kite this obelisk mob near the big group in front of Alun'za
    10) Pull this big group then the 2 priestesses on the side (no need to pull the group near stairs)
    11) After boss, go down through the stairs on fire, and kill groups there to go to Yazma. You may need to pull 1 or the 2 skycreamers on top
    12) Take the breaker obelisk mob with Yazma

    On higher keys, you'll prefer to skip the group with 2 reanimated guardians, but it's quite easy. Either use shroud after Vol'kaal or do a solo deathskip of the middle pack. That's not a new or weird strategy, as we did that almost all season 2 (shroud/invis was used before to enter Vol'kaal area).

    Then, you wand to pull away the dino group to enter central obelisk, as you've got already one obelisk to fight with Yazma. It was quite confusing for groups earlier this season, but now it's not anymore an issue with PUGs in the 18-20 range. People know what to do, just communicate and kindly ask someone to do it.
    Last edited by Naville; 2020-08-07 at 11:05 AM.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    What is a good route for Atal these days? I ran two Atal runs this week with two different routes and it feels like they both suck. The "good" route involves some cheese where one of the dps lure mobs away from obelisks and that's not something that you can reliably do in pugs. What is a good Atal route that pugs won't mess up?
    Thats hard to say. I both tank and dps keys this week. If i'm dps i usually just follow the tank. My own route:

    Go down to the pack on the left. Kill it and take obelisk to boss.

    Hardest pack in the dungeon(that you dont skip) is the one in front of Alun'za. After her we go to the middle and take most of the trash on the way including the trash at middle pillar and the pillar itself. We then jump down to Rezan and take one of the saurid groups on the way up. THen we go back up and procees with the standard topside clear where you skip from 1 pillar to the next and use the next pillar to skip the trash in front of vol'kaal. I dont like bringing an awakened mob to yasma even on non tyrannical weeks. I pug most of the stuff i do and the dps varies a lot from group to group.

    If you want to bring awakened to yasma you can do a faster clear and avoid the middle group aswell

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    Absolutely agree! (Before someone puts words in my mouth: you gotta be careful what "high rio" means, and what a "mediocre group" means. It's easy to come up with infinite silly counter-examples. But in general the above is true.)



    It's tempting to condemn any players who have the same mechanical skills and experience but a much higher score than yourself. But that's excessive. Many of them might be humble and not attempt to claim any M+ superiority over you, to start with. I can think of many reasonable examples and personalities even just off the top of my friend list. There are all kinds of reasons for that, arising from inactivity or general lack of interest (combined with being in top raiding guild, or just having hardcore M+ friends).



    You said you mostly run in 4-man premade, but the same is true in full pugs. The higher the key the less likely you will run into full toxic people. One reason is because higher level pugs require everyone to join voice comms, and it's much-much harder to be toxic to someone on voice as opposed to just in chat. Another reason is that in general people who achieved more in the game are somewhat less frustrated about their progress, there is less need to lash out (but some frustration is always there). The higher progress also means players are better at identifying what went wrong in each case, so it's easier to just work on fixing the problems and staying constructive.



    I agree with that.



    I have been playing on and off since TBC, and I always thought the introduction of LFD in WotLK was a big loss. I wonder whether that's one of the reasons I like the high M+ pugging community (and I assume the sense of community might be similar across a larger number of world top raiding guilds). Once the number of participating players gets low enough (thousands), you start repeatedly seeing familiar faces and befriend some of them. You get more of a big-community feeling again. You don't meet all players, and you don't know 98% of the players well at all, but you know they exist and know some very basic info about many of them.
    You dont know how RIO works if you think a player with much higher score can have the same experience as someone with a much lower score.

    Perhaps you should try to understand the system before you judge it.
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2020-08-07 at 11:25 AM.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    If you don't want to do any "cheesing" with the average PUG, up to +15 you can do this:
    Have a player who can drop aggro pull stuff away from pylons, other players enter, first player enters through an earlier portal.

    Rogue, hunter, nightelves are your friends

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You dont know how RIO works if you think a player with much higher score can have the same experience as someone with a much lower score.

    Perhaps you should try to understand the system before you judge it.
    You missed so much contextual information, I'm not sure if that's just a bad troll attempt.

    Ever heard of boosts? I have boosted my fair share of friends and buyers through high timed keys. Many of them have got no experience to match their score at all. Many of them are very humble when it comes to their actual experience level. Some of them were reluctant to even get boosted... But when you have played at a more hardcore level for a while and see a natural shot-caller and leader come back to the game after a break, you will sometimes go out of your way to boost and babysit them just on the off-chance they will get interested to start pushing high keys again.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-08-07 at 12:18 PM.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    You missed so much contextual information, I'm not sure if that's just a bad troll attempt.

    Ever heard of boosts? I have boosted my fair share of friends and buyers through high timed keys. Many of them have got no experience to match their score at all. Many of them are very humble when it comes to their actual experience level. Some of them were reluctant to even get boosted... But when you have played at a more hardcore level for a while and see a natural shot-caller and leader come back to the game after a break, you will sometimes go out of your way to boost and babysit them just on the off-chance they will get interested to start pushing high keys again.
    Boosted people are the exception that confirms the rule.

    The fact that you participated in sqewing the only system we have for determining experience in m+ isnt exactly something i would be proud of

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The fact that you participated in sqewing the only system we have for determining experience in m+ isnt exactly something i would be proud of
    There is no way to feel bad or guilty for boosting. It is deeply ingrained in the game design, and there is no way around it for anyone who tries to play at a high level.

    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    If you want to significantly lower the availability of boosting, just fight for the Blizzard to lower the consumable prices. I spend around 10k gold on consumables for a single M+ run. The only way to sustain these expenses is to regularly boost someone, especially +15s and higher keys for score or achievement.
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    A flask costs 350g.
    A prepot costs 200g. Ideally used for each pull, but realistically only use around 10 of them per run.
    A rune costs 600g. Ideally used after each death, but realistically 1-2 of them per run.
    AP/Int/Stam scrolls, each costs 250-450g. Normally have warrior for AP, and then someone has to use 1-2 scrolls every time people die. I used 6 scrolls in a recent smooth run, and 20 scrolls in a recent messy run.
    Healing pot costs 40g. Normally used 10+ times per run.
    Sugar-coated fish feast costs 300g. In hard keys used 10+ times per run.

    Each run is different, but just the minimal estimates from above sum up to 7850g.
    On top of that add food, armor repairs (including Auto-Hammer items), speed pots, invisibility pots, profession items (like Shimmerscale Diving Suit and Unstable Temporal Time Shifter), drums, respec tomes, enchants, gems, and so on... Each is situational, but it all adds up.

    (The above quotes are from 1 year old posts, the expenses are obviously different nowadays).
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-08-07 at 12:54 PM.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    If you advertise a group as 15+ it means on time. Otherwise its simply 15 or "chill run we dont care about time" or something like that.

    If you then proceed to fuck up so badly that timing it is impossible while showing the group you can do 20k dps then you are the one at fault for falsely advertising a key.

    Me leaving that is perfectly justified.

    Fine, but then you have to explain that to the group you're about to join.

    There are more people who leaves because of toxicity than "I really need to leave".

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    Fine, but then you have to explain that to the group you're about to join.

    There are more people who leaves because of toxicity than "I really need to leave".
    I always say that i'm there for the on time score if i am.

    I also dont leave a group after a wipe or some deaths. I do leave groups if its apparent the tank dont know what to do or the dps is subpar to being able to beat the timer.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    snip
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    snap
    Those are pretty much the routes that I used in both tries. But they both feel awful. You're wasting so much time running zigzag through the dungeon, fighting annoying trash that you'd rather skip but can't, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Have a player who can drop aggro pull stuff away from pylons, other players enter, first player enters through an earlier portal.

    Rogue, hunter, nightelves are your friends
    I don't trust pugs to pull that off in +15s. The average pug player is usually already overwhelmed with their base rotation. Everything that involves more than an "anyway I started blasting" level of competence from pug dps is something I'd like to avoid

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Have a player who can drop aggro pull stuff away from pylons, other players enter, first player enters through an earlier portal.

    Rogue, hunter, nightelves are your friends
    And mages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    I don't trust pugs to pull that off in +15s. The average pug player is usually already overwhelmed with their base rotation. Everything that involves more than an "anyway I started blasting" level of competence from pug dps is something I'd like to avoid
    To simplify things, it's very common in low keys that someone just pulls the pack away from the pillar and dies. Then respawns, enters the portal on either side of the entrance (we still speaking about AD) and runs inside portal to rejoin the rest in the group. This way, no combat drop mechanics are needed, and any non-tank player can do that.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Those are pretty much the routes that I used in both tries. But they both feel awful. You're wasting so much time running zigzag through the dungeon, fighting annoying trash that you'd rather skip but can't, etc.




    I don't trust pugs to pull that off in +15s. The average pug player is usually already overwhelmed with their base rotation. Everything that involves more than an "anyway I started blasting" level of competence from pug dps is something I'd like to avoid
    Its a zigzag dungeon. There isnt that much backtracking in it though.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Those are pretty much the routes that I used in both tries. But they both feel awful. You're wasting so much time running zigzag through the dungeon, fighting annoying trash that you'd rather skip but can't, etc.
    What do you expect actually? A speedrun route where you snap half the dungeon on Rezan? Not going to happen with PUGs.

    You can use the one with the skip of the 2 reanimated guardians and the bait of the dino pack on your everyday keys. Successfully did it on a +21 with my prot warrior.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    What do you expect actually? A speedrun route where you snap half the dungeon on Rezan? Not going to happen with PUGs.

    You can use the one with the skip of the 2 reanimated guardians and the bait of the dino pack on your everyday keys. Successfully did it on a +21 with my prot warrior.
    I'm not expecting anything. I'm asking.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Yhcti View Post
    This is the reason I quit previously, without guildies, nothing gets done because everyone's so fucking toxic.
    I think you found your solution all by yourself...join a guild or group that run Mythic+.

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