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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    If you’re not good enough to finish a 15 in time, you’ll run into the problem of not getting your weekly item and will be forced to downgrade your key to get something out of it.

    But yes, I agree it’s a bad way to do it
    I get your idea. But farming 15s is obviously for people that have no problem with this. Your idea would negate the ability to farm fixed keys.
    I'd be fine with people getting gear one key lower than finished if it wasn't timed. A non-timed 15 would count as 14.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by iddqd View Post
    That is one decision that is definately needed to make M+ serious. This is so utter bullshit that you get full reward for being 2h in a dungeon. Base reward on highest key in time, there is 0 reason for the system as it is now. You are a raider and dont want to play M+ seriously? Then dont! I dont want to raid, but i'd love to have the loot - well, my bad!
    It sounds like you want to adapt this change in spite of people who are deemed to be not worthy of something, rather than to improve your own gameplay. That alone makes it a questionable suggestion.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    HThursday: Shrine of the Storms 11: Blood DK tank, no idea of the route and how to get count. Dumps second obelisk on top (literally on top) of the mini boss before second boss, ignores mechanics. Blames DPS. The healer who's key it is can't keep him up -his gear is red. He leaves.
    Do you mini boss as in the elemental or miniboss as in the 3rd obelisk there? If it's the 3rd obelisk then that is pretty common strat and one recommened on IO. Though I tend to drop near the bridge so that way you can pull the two pack and deal with less bolstering on the one add and preventing pulling all the mini adds that make a mob a boss.

    Though when running my hunter alt I have seen 95% of the tanks take an obelisk and tank it right there, if it's spider and the other 3 are pretty close with small kiting to avoid ground stuff. Then they take every path imaginable to get the to boss and hitting like 110%+ on the meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    There has to be a way to downgrade keys tho. Otherwise you simply can't farm 15s with a fixed premade.
    You can downgrade keys on your own though.

  4. #764
    I’ve seen people in this thread say that keys should never downgrade...

    If your gear or you as a player cannot finish a key, it downgrades because blizzard assumes it was too hard for you. If you have toxic leavers, rather than blame them you should look at your own gameplay and judge whether you could have avoided the leaver becoming toxic or carried harder.

    Some guy in my +15 made us wipe on the mechanical cat boss in mechagon twice because he didn’t know mechanics. I left my own key because of a guy can’t do that boss, he probably will suck later on too... and it’s a waste of time.

    Get raider IO, level up your score and vet people you invite on the same or higher level than you. And this solves 80% of get good or gear issues, and consequently toxic leavers because no one is being carried. If you cry about raider IO, then you’re asking to be carried rather than progress the community made metric for progress for M+, which frankly works amazingly well if you want to prejudge how a person is going to perform.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyz View Post
    I’ve seen people in this thread say that keys should never downgrade...

    If your gear or you as a player cannot finish a key, it downgrades because blizzard assumes it was too hard for you. If you have toxic leavers, rather than blame them you should look at your own gameplay and judge whether you could have avoided the leaver becoming toxic or carried harder.
    Actually, it used to be the case in early Legion. Non-timed keys gained the "depleted" status, instead of being lowered. People could run a key repeatedly until they managed to time it, but such key no longer granted loot... So no one wanted to join your pug to help with a depleted key.

    But there was also a good competitive side to it. The top players used that to practice the same key many times until they learned to time it. That is how the Thorlefulz/Tarkam/Soapie/Нурдин/Meowchan timed world first Court of Stars +26 key in April 2017 (which was an insanely high key at the time; I believe they spent a big portion of the week repeatedly practicing that one key and only timed it 50 minutes before weekly reset... basically requiring a perfect run). Later, Meowchan was a big advocate for bringing back the "depleted" key option to the game, but the community did not listen to that. An option to deplete a key instead of rerolling the key would indeed benefit high end groups, removing a lot of randomness... But I can see why Blizzard does not want to bring it back, because the current system is much better at enforcing the addictive gambling/time-sink elements, where you have one attempt at a key at a time, and then might spend a long time till you get another shot.

    P.S. Meowchan was suggesting some nice implementation ideas, such as: when you fail a key timer, your key remains in your bags for the same level of the same dungeon, but gains the "depleted" status (and no longer grants loot) just as it happened at the start of Legion. If you are a high-end premade group, you can choose to run the same key repeatedly to learn it until you time it (then it would reroll into a higher key). If you are pugging, you would have an option to click on a key to lower and reroll it, removing the "depleted" status (so then this would work in exactly the same way as it does right not). This simple system would make both hardcore and casual key players happy. In fact, it might even make the "I hate timers, just give me the challenge" players happy -- because repeatedly running a hard "depleted" key sounds very similar to what they desire.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-09-08 at 05:08 PM.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    You can downgrade keys on your own though.
    This wasn't part of his suggestion, that's why I said this.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    This wasn't part of his suggestion, that's why I said this.
    Actually it was. I replied to a suggestion where keys don't downgrade and you can manually downgrade if you choose to do so. My idea was simply a way to give people a reason to downgrade.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyz View Post
    I’ve seen people in this thread say that keys should never downgrade...

    If your gear or you as a player cannot finish a key, it downgrades because blizzard assumes it was too hard for you. If you have toxic leavers, rather than blame them you should look at your own gameplay and judge whether you could have avoided the leaver becoming toxic or carried harder.

    Some guy in my +15 made us wipe on the mechanical cat boss in mechagon twice because he didn’t know mechanics. I left my own key because of a guy can’t do that boss, he probably will suck later on too... and it’s a waste of time.

    Get raider IO, level up your score and vet people you invite on the same or higher level than you. And this solves 80% of get good or gear issues, and consequently toxic leavers because no one is being carried. If you cry about raider IO, then you’re asking to be carried rather than progress the community made metric for progress for M+, which frankly works amazingly well if you want to prejudge how a person is going to perform.
    #1 exactly. There is a reason for the downgrade-system.
    #2 good point. If everyone would play on point in the first place, there would be no reason to be toxic or leave at all. No one, except special people, leaves a dungeon without a reason.

    Another thing is: +15s give you the highest gear possible via mythic+, we still got people in this forum that think that you can just look at ilvl and it's gg. Good luck going for 20s with people that got no 15+ exp but 470 gear. This mindset is literally made for toxicity and leaving people.

  9. #769
    Posts like these shows why this wow community is toxic and ignored by people in other games.

    People are justifying quitters actions, instead of pointing out how absurd this kind of behavior is.

    I invited a 2.5k iO Priest DPS who screwed up mechanics and ended up leaving after being made fun of by our healer.
    So, even though the guys attended all metrics available, he managed to screw my game and im supposed to accept that because git gud ? How ?

    The very reason these kind of things happen is because the gitgud community feed these monsters and then are bitten back and dont understand why endgame is so poor.

    This is why i hate pugs.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Rensons View Post
    Posts like these shows why this wow community is toxic and ignored by people in other games.

    People are justifying quitters actions, instead of pointing out how absurd this kind of behavior is.

    I invited a 2.5k iO Priest DPS who screwed up mechanics and ended up leaving after being made fun of by our healer.
    So, even though the guys attended all metrics available, he managed to screw my game and im supposed to accept that because git gud ? How ?

    The very reason these kind of things happen is because the gitgud community feed these monsters and then are bitten back and dont understand why endgame is so poor.

    This is why i hate pugs.
    You complain about leavers, but then you create the exact environment which causes leavers? Honestly, if someone is failing mechanics and is a random, the last thing you want to do is make fun of them. They're not your friend, they have no idea that you aren't trying to offend them. This kind of joking around only works when everyone is in on the joke. I actually hate pugs due to how often I had to defuse situations like this, it's like people are all children.

    Sometimes groups are hopeless, though. Throughout BfA, I think I dropped 2 or 3 keys tops, a very low number for 2 years, but still higher than 0. All of them were when people just weren't improving try after try and there was no reason to stick around. Like 5 tries in and it's only getting worse.

    There is some bad behavior surrounding io and the current design of all loot being shit for iLvl (the only reason people join groups is to push their io because there is no other reward, therefore if it's not going to time they might as well leave), but it's terrible to be stuck to a bad group for no reason.

    Even though I don't quit groups unless I see a 0% chance of moving forward, even ignoring timer, there are many times that a group is so bad it makes me feel like quitting life as a whole. Now I just group up with guildies and never play with PUGs. imo that's what everyone should do, because the game becomes considerably better when you remove PUGs from it.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Rensons View Post
    Posts like these shows why this wow community is toxic and ignored by people in other games.

    People are justifying quitters actions, instead of pointing out how absurd this kind of behavior is.

    I invited a 2.5k iO Priest DPS who screwed up mechanics and ended up leaving after being made fun of by our healer.
    So, even though the guys attended all metrics available, he managed to screw my game and im supposed to accept that because git gud ? How ?

    The very reason these kind of things happen is because the gitgud community feed these monsters and then are bitten back and dont understand why endgame is so poor.

    This is why i hate pugs.
    It's not clear which of the two players you call a monster - the healer, or the spriest?

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Actually it was. I replied to a suggestion where keys don't downgrade and you can manually downgrade if you choose to do so. My idea was simply a way to give people a reason to downgrade.
    Ah, then I read to quickly over this, sorry!

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    It's not clear which of the two players you call a monster - the healer, or the spriest?
    Technically both. The one crap talking another player is a jerk. The one who comes in with a high IO and doesn't even know the mechanics is also a jerk. People shouldn't sign up for 15s and higher that don't even have a basic understanding of the mechanics. Learn the dungeon and what your class can do to counter mechanics, then queue for higher keys. But, if you are being toxic to someone else that then leaves the key and you ruin someone's key, you're also a jerk. Plenty of jerk-age going around these days.

    I've also seen people drop a key that was actually still possible to time after a wipe. Just because of a wipe. I remember one such situation in a 17 FH where we wiped on Trothak due to someone not kiting sharks and still had almost 12 minutes left to finish the fight and get to Harlan. Person says something like "y'all suck" or "learn to play", bails, ruins key. That's a special level of jerk.

  14. #774
    I love this thread. It has most of the "power users" of this forum in here displaying that they are indeed maybe not even AOTC players that struggle to do sub 15 keys. Everything makes so much more sense on these forums. Thanks OP.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by LDancer View Post
    Put a debuff on leavers stop them spreading their toxic behaviour. Give them a 24hr debuff that shows they abandoned a key previously but not stop them joining more runs.

    At least the key holder when forming a group can be somewhat advised of the pugs potential behaviour.

    If the group wanted to reset and downgrade their key, have it so the key holder can abandon the attempt and you can start again. Would stop pugs joining and bailing when the show got tough and allow a premade group trying to clear a particular dungeon the ability to reset and not get penalised.
    so you want to mark every high end M+ player with a D buff? cuz you know its normal to leave a key after a bad pul/wipe on a 27-30 key unless you do 2hr no leaver for a Masochistic reason

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Rensons View Post
    Posts like these shows why this wow community is toxic and ignored by people in other games.

    People are justifying quitters actions, instead of pointing out how absurd this kind of behavior is.

    I invited a 2.5k iO Priest DPS who screwed up mechanics and ended up leaving after being made fun of by our healer.
    So, even though the guys attended all metrics available, he managed to screw my game and im supposed to accept that because git gud ? How ?

    The very reason these kind of things happen is because the gitgud community feed these monsters and then are bitten back and dont understand why endgame is so poor.

    This is why i hate pugs.
    The irony here is amazing.

    "Everyone is so toxic, so anyway, this priest wasnt playing how we wanted him to, so we mocked him and he left"

    It amazes me that you dont sense the irony, surely you are at least aware of it to some degree?

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The irony here is amazing.

    "Everyone is so toxic, so anyway, this priest wasnt playing how we wanted him to, so we mocked him and he left"

    It amazes me that you dont sense the irony, surely you are at least aware of it to some degree?
    It's funny. I had a guy flame me for him dying to avoidable damage. He ran into a shark in freehold and called me a retard and shit healer because it killed him. I left the group and then he proceeded to tell me to kill myself for leaving.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Rung View Post
    It's funny. I had a guy flame me for him dying to avoidable damage. He ran into a shark in freehold and called me a retard and shit healer because it killed him. I left the group and then he proceeded to tell me to kill myself for leaving.
    This is the best reason to join a guild so you actually have some degree of control in terms of who you play with. If you always pug then shit like this will happen. Sadly.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The irony here is amazing.

    "Everyone is so toxic, so anyway, this priest wasnt playing how we wanted him to, so we mocked him and he left"

    It amazes me that you dont sense the irony, surely you are at least aware of it to some degree?
    This is why I think most of the perceived issues that this thread has haphazardly tried to address has absolutely nothing to do with WoW, but people and society in general. The Golden Rule used to be common-place and well know, but I guarantee there will be people who will have to look it up because they've never heard or it and/or don't know what it is.

    I personally still abide by said rule as best I can, as no one is perfect. This applies in-game, as well, as I understand that everyone is a person on the other side of the avatar (bots aside ). Most toxic scenarios are by definition toxic because one or more people in a scenario (such as M+) completely forget that they're dealing with people, and they couldn't be bothered with treating them as such. This behavior seen in-game is just the logical result of how people are leading and living their lives on the outside, as it will easily trickle in to the game. The anonymity of an avatar releases the inhibitions that are present when you face someone directly in person, and what comes out is what is already present but just held back. Anonymity tends to remove the shroud of who a person actually is, and rarely brings out behaviors and mannerisms that weren't present already in the person.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    This is why I think most of the perceived issues that this thread has haphazardly tried to address has absolutely nothing to do with WoW, but people and society in general. The Golden Rule used to be common-place and well know, but I guarantee there will be people who will have to look it up because they've never heard or it and/or don't know what it is.

    I personally still abide by said rule as best I can, as no one is perfect. This applies in-game, as well, as I understand that everyone is a person on the other side of the avatar (bots aside ). Most toxic scenarios are by definition toxic because one or more people in a scenario (such as M+) completely forget that they're dealing with people, and they couldn't be bothered with treating them as such. This behavior seen in-game is just the logical result of how people are leading and living their lives on the outside, as it will easily trickle in to the game. The anonymity of an avatar releases the inhibitions that are present when you face someone directly in person, and what comes out is what is already present but just held back. Anonymity tends to remove the shroud of who a person actually is, and rarely brings out behaviors and mannerisms that weren't present already in the person.
    Word salad champion - 2020. No doubt you are trying to suggest 'treat others as you wish to be treated yourself' or something similar.

    People don't "forget" they are playing with another person, that's a silly suggestion. They just don't care - and that has NOT changed since day one.

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