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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Yesterday I did Underrot +16 with a pug heal who struggled hard at 2nd boss to keep us alive. A look at his hps shows my tank (BrM Monk) hps being higher than his hps.
    You also have to look at what the rest of the group is doing... if at Unbound Abo everyone immediately runs in different directions to trample maggots healers have a hard time keeping them up. Stay 2 seconds together and start running when all are topped up.

    ps: and also most groups tank the boss at the edge of the room, so not only do players start running at 50% health but also out of helaer range.
    Last edited by Twdft; 2020-06-24 at 06:11 PM.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    you did troggs this wahts wrong get your route straight go an try to do troggs rnd agrro ppl on a 24-26 keys and see what happens with raging or fort/mob affix

    tanks that palying the wrong route is the worst that can happen and its tilting too a waste of time, especially on a echo farm making a 15 min run into to a 25 min run for no reason
    it was a 15 du spastischer hurensohn XD why are you talking to me about routes for higher keys when I'm forming groups giving out mercy invites for a steamroll 15? 15s are irrelevant
    infracted
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2020-06-25 at 06:27 AM.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    it was a 15 du spastischer hurensohn XD why are you talking to me about routes for higher keys when I'm forming groups giving out mercy invites for a steamroll 15? 15s are irrelevant
    how old are you to trow around german insults that 5 grader use? hope the mods get you baned
    I.O BFA Season 3


  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    two days ago I made a group for mecha workshop 16. We go in and wipe at first boss and there wasn't even any big fails. The pug healer with 470+ ilvl and ~2k rio was rocking some 30k hps and couldn't keep the group alive. After the wipe he says "no offense but this is no +16 group" and leaves. We inv a new healer and do the +15 without any problems whatsoever.

    Yesterday I did Underrot +16 with a pug heal who struggled hard at 2nd boss to keep us alive. A look at his hps shows my tank (BrM Monk) hps being higher than his hps.

    What is it with well geared, decent rio healers who suck at healing so hard?
    As a mediocre healer with pretty good gear and an okay raider.io, I feel like I can sufficiently answer this.

    Most obvious to me is that two weeks ago and this week were both grievous weeks, which are the hardest healing weeks, moreso for some specs than others. Healers who may do fine other weeks may struggle with grievous. I know I do in some dungeons, especially if I'm pugging it rather than running with friends. So a healer could easily gather gear and score doing other affixes and then discover their limitations on the hard weeks. The divide on output can be even more extreme if they're a person who just runs one 15 a week versus someone who runs a lot of them, they might have the same score, but the latter is going to know much much better when is the time to blow CDs or who should be prioritised when, which is a much bigger deal on these weeks.

    Outside of that, the answer is probably largely the quality of the group. All it takes is one DPS that is bad at eating avoidable damage, forcing me to spend precious cast time healing someone who isn't the tank. The biggest limiter to me -- although this is going to depend on the healer's spec -- is cast times. I have to spend 6 seconds saving the DPS' life and then another 2 seconds on the cast time towards the tank heals, it's fully possible that the tank may die in that 8 seconds with no heals if they are out of cooldowns or just slow to hit them. But bad DPS and stuff living too long can be very problematic, although none of this is necessarily unique to m+.

    The difference between your failed 16 and your successful 15 on Workshop could have been the healer sucking, sure, but that one key level difference could have mattered, or folks could have just been better about not running to opposite sides of the room on flame jets or getting hit by every saw imaginable, etc, on the second try. I've done runs on the same week with the same group where sometimes healing was a breeze and sometimes it was a struggle just based on everyone's positioning (although to be fair, usually its me getting hit by the saws). It's also worth noting that that fight is the only boss that really requires any kind of significant HPS in workshop so it's all downhill from there; if you get through that one fine you shouldn't have issues with any of the other bosses.

    As far as the Underrot specifically, as a healer the explanation for that one is super obvious. That fight requires very little healing outside of tantrum. It would not be at all surprising to have a low HPS number for the fight -- even under the tank -- because of the long periods of doing no healing. If you're doing 10k HPS between tantrums, even if you're spiking to 100k+ during them, it's going to make the total numbers for the fight look pretty shitty. If the healer was struggling with the tantrum and you lost people then or wiped, then it's going to look even worse, because almost the entire parse is going to be the low healing period. [note: I'd be interested in seeing some parses for this to see what the numers actually are because I'm jsut spitballing here, but unfortunately I never log m+ and my last few Underrots were all PuG runs anyway; if anyone else has some I'd be interested to see!]

    There are also other factors to contend with: how far did people scatter during the tantrum? Does the healer have tools to move while casting to chase people and/or big cooldowns to use? I've certainly been in runs where the DPS ran to the corners of the earth and died because they didn't use personals and they were out of range of me for way too long. Also, how good were the DPS at stomping the maggots? I've done PuGs where I've done almost all of them myself as heals... which is fine during non-tantrum phases -- I usually try to anyway because I'm not doing anything -- but really fucking miserable during the tantrum. And if they aren't getting stomped and are getting killed instead, oof.

    Anyway tl;dr probably the affixes but maybe the group or maybe just minor changes in things like positioning
    Last edited by Tziva; 2020-06-24 at 08:29 PM.


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  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post

    Most obvious to me is that two weeks ago and this week were both grievous weeks,
    yes. Im avg healer complicated by being holy priest. Even with that I'm running 10-14s with only occasional problems.

    Grievous weeks totally diff story. I drop down to <10s. Too many +10s during grievous end badly .

    Even <10 pugs during grievous can be a challenge. Most all of those are full time trying to keep up. Never a dull moment. Its great practice though, so dont mind.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    grievous is a non-affix...
    No it isn't.

    On paper it sounds simple, but in reality it's pretty punishing. Especially when you have dps/tanks thinking "Grievous isn't bad" just taking extra damage instead of trying to help the healer.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i never have any problems to heal it...
    And I never have issues tanking necrotic.

    Does that make it an non-affix? Certainly not. It just means I have tools at my disposal to handle it in a pinch (Final Stand as prot paladin) or friends who know when to Ring of Peace to help me out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    you playing with people that I don't even would do a myhtic 0 if they taking extra dmg for no reason under any affix
    I play with my friends who are generally pretty good at avoiding damage.

    That doesn't mean I'm going to pretend though that all groups are that way.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    maybe don't base difficulty of an affix based on the lowest skill level people?

    bursting with low skill people is one of the hardest affixes and one of the easiest if people have half a clue...
    The only one here basing a difficulty of an affix by a skill level is you.

    To which I would say, maybe don't base the difficulty of an affix by your own experience. The only reason grievous is considered a lower affix is because its something that solely falls upon the healer, and that it happens to show up with affixes that don't impact it heavily. If you threw grievous onto something like Tyrannical even, or Explosive, it would have far more issues to it.


    That doesn't make it a "non-affix". It still very much affected the difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    you should avoid any player like this my dude, they are not fit for this content
    like whats your argument her exactly? i also can a priest that loves to get mob aggro before the tank, should we remove aggro now?
    I'm more confused what your argument is?

    I literally flat out said I play with friends who do avoid damage. But you're going on about some "you should avoid them!".

    Do you have the ability to instantly gauge players when doing pug groups? Or are you going to claim no one should pug, because that's not quite an answer either. Nor is io an actual indicator of how well someone deals with affixes, especially considering if you're doing the key range of 10s-15s and looking for a suitable io in that range.


    Or is your argument that people don't dismiss the affix and they take it seriously, because the only reason I posted here was someone claiming it's a "non-affix".
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2020-07-10 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    no... grievous damage is totally negligible compared to the damage people would take at higher keys if they get hit by random aoes...
    That isn't really proving much of anything though.

    A DPS instantly dying because they stood in something stupid of course more damage than anything grievous could do.


    And the measurement of "high keys" isn't the only factor here either, since grievous kicks in at +7.

    It's like saying Bursting isn't an issue in higher keys. But it's more challenging the lower the key, since things inherently die faster when they have less health.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    My argument is there are people like this since the inception of the game and have nothing to do with the current topic.
    You need to vet people more for some content then others, this was also always true so you should vet people more if you want a flawless m+ run.
    Like for example I'm not gonna take someone that is a new raid recruit and bring him to progression night
    1) This has really nothing to do with whether or not grievous is a "non-affix". By that kind of logic, all affixes are "non-affixes" because you just need a group who knows how to handle them.

    2) It has everything to do with the current topic when the topic is people rage quitting M+.

    3) No one is realistically going to spend time sitting there digging up a resume for their next M+ candidates.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2020-07-10 at 03:58 PM.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    grievous damage is negligible unless you let it stack... if you let it stack then you are doing it wrong as a healer...
    it isn't more challenging the lower the key... it's more challenging based on how stupid the dps is...
    It's not just the healer's job to ensure it's not stacking. Again, it's on the DPS and tanks to avoid taking extra damage to help out. Or using defensives.

    Which mileage varies. I did use to pug a lot on my lock, and there is absolutely no reason people shouldn't be using healthstones at that point. Yet all the time, I'd get people who wouldn't use a single one. There's some cushy spot that people seem to sit in thinking "Well, if I'm not dead, the healer can take care of it".

    This kinda logic is the same selfish logic that people have going into raids and not using health pots. And this isn't uncommon.


    On the second point, it IS more challenging the lower the key. Especially if you have a group that overgears it even a bit but they're just looking to push a key up quickly. Or even a tank with too much twilight dev.

    Trash just melts on lower difficulties, and bursting is a +4 affix. If you really think trash in a +4 is dying at the same speed as in a +15, I don't know what more to say. It's far easier to stagger trash death when they have a larger health pool, especially including corruption procs.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    grievous damage is negligible unless you let it stack... if you let it stack then you are doing it wrong as a healer... and even then if you do let it stack you can easily heal it back up...

    3 gcd's:

    Your Holy Shock healed You 153,792 Holy. (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 8,194 Holy. (Critical)
    Your Flash of Light healed You 192,401 Holy. (90,390 Overhealed) (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 0 Holy. (8,195 Overhealed) (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 0 Holy. (4,097 Overhealed)
    Your Flash of Light healed You 0 Holy. (124,944 Overhealed) (Critical)

    that's without having anything to hit to reduce my holy shock cd...



    it isn't more challenging the lower the key... it's more challenging based on how stupid the dps is...
    So like when a dps stands in shockwave and someone tries to use that as proof that an unrelated affix is a non-issue for everyone? Cuz that's pretty damned stupid..

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    Your Holy Shock healed You 153,792 Holy. (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 8,194 Holy. (Critical)
    Your Flash of Light healed You 192,401 Holy. (90,390 Overhealed) (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 0 Holy. (8,195 Overhealed) (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 0 Holy. (4,097 Overhealed)
    Your Flash of Light healed You 0 Holy. (124,944 Overhealed) (Critical)

    3 gcd's... i can top anyone without any problems even if they have max stacks... this is without having something to hit to reduce my holy shock cd...
    Except, Paladin deal pretty easily with grievous. Not all healers are made equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    Your Holy Shock healed You 153,792 Holy. (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 8,194 Holy. (Critical)
    Your Flash of Light healed You 192,401 Holy. (90,390 Overhealed) (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 0 Holy. (8,195 Overhealed) (Critical)
    Your Radiant Incandescence healed You 0 Holy. (4,097 Overhealed)
    Your Flash of Light healed You 0 Holy. (124,944 Overhealed) (Critical)

    3 gcd's... i can top anyone without any problems even if they have max stacks... this is without having something to hit to reduce my holy shock cd...
    I was going to bother to do all the math to try to see, but let me just cut right to the basic part.

    First off, you cut out 90% of my post ironically.

    Second off, let's assume my lock who has 615k buffed is sitting at like, 100k health. While your third cast would get my health up, that doesn't factor in that I've been taking 8% of my health every tick, nor that there's most likely external damage going out at the moment and if you had one person sitting that low on health that there's most likely others also in danger so you'd have to split your heals.

    Mind you, you might say "But 100k is ridiculously low anyway", to which I'd say...the only way to get to max stacks is to let someone sit on the debuff which would end up with low health. So you're the one who set up that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i play all healers... it's not difficult on any except disc priest if the group is stupid enough to stop pulling... your increase in healing from better gear has outscaled the damage grievous does... it was already happening in season 3... now in season 4 it does laughable damage...

    healing volcanic or quaking is far harder than healing grievous with pugs... worst to ever heal with pugs was bursting/quaking though...
    And I think this kinda just seals the deal. Since you know, grievous's damage also increased with health pools.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    not anywhere close to how much healing power you have gained... the only time i can reach my max hps potential is with bursting... i can't even get close to it on any key i've done with grievous... there's just not enough damage...
    And this is why the game isn't balanced around the 1% mythic raiders though.

    Even if you've never struggled with any key for healing, that doesn't change that there's a reason why the M+ system allows for multiple difficulties.

  15. #515
    For every toxic leaver there seems to be 10 keys that are doomed where people try to hold others hostage in.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i'm not a 1% mythic raider lol... i have never stepped into mythic raid... all my gear is from mythic plus and warfronts/dungeon weekly...
    I'm not saying you are.

    I'm saying it's the same kind of logic. The game should be, and is for the most part, balanced around the average player.

    There's a reason why some affixes that are considered "more simple" like quaking was still nerfed, or why volcanic is being looked into with Shadowlands.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i play all healers... it's not difficult on any except disc priest if the group is stupid enough to stop pulling... your increase in healing from better gear has outscaled the damage grievous does... it was already happening in season 3... now in season 4 it does laughable damage...

    healing volcanic or quaking is far harder than healing grievous with pugs... worst to ever heal with pugs was bursting/quaking though...
    Honestly, grievous is only tough for healers who aren't good tank healers. It's not difficult to heal the group back up over 90% with any healer. But when a 1mil hp tank drops to 50% and you now have to quickly heal him back up together with the rest of the group and you can't keep up with the stacks on the tank, then it gets really tough. If you manage to instantly heal the tank over 90% hp then it's a free affix for you.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i'm not a 1% mythic raider lol... i have never stepped into mythic raid... all my gear is from mythic plus and warfronts/dungeon weekly...
    If your IO score is higher than 3k3 your are the 1% FYI
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  19. #519
    Got a bad one on an AD 17, downed the priestess boss, moving onwards, tank tries to snap pull some mobs, falls off the edge, so quits. It is one thing to quit when the key is dead* but when you do it because you fuck up but lack the humility to just own it and move forward.

    *= I had one quit as we got to the last boss in sots, we weren't going to get it timed, just missing out, he could have let us have the weekly but nah, just quit. For the sake of a few minutes. I'd have understood if we were still at the second boss or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    , he could have let us have the weekly but nah, just quit. For the sake of a few minutes.
    Making Tidalcores useful for everyone could be an idea to combat leavers. As a tailor I get at least a 1000g profit out of it by selling a bag, which is really nice since it pays for buffs and repair. My jewelry/enchanter Alt benefits not at all.

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