Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
... LastLast
  1. #261
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Elru
    Posts
    2,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    So you would rather have nothing to do and quit?
    Its a better alternative than current systems. Enjoy great content without cancer grind x rng systems. Unsub and return in the next patch.
    But the reasoning at blizzard in past years is to force you by any means to stay subbed no matter how horrible the systems become.

  2. #262
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,288
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Honestly, what was the problem with tier sets? I always enjoyed them very much.
    For me they were pretty much the highlight of a patch. I really don't understand who, what or why there was this turn against them.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    You might not have but a large majority of players do. They get all they need, clear the current raid once or twice and quit the game until next patch comes out. Its bad for the game and its bad for guilds having to keep recruiting ppl and gearing them so they can keep clearing the raid so everybody can get all the stuff they need. Was a huge issue during classic, TBC ,WOTLK and cata thats why we have some of these systems now.
    If they clear the raid once or twice they don't have BiS in any iteration of the game, so clearly this doesn't apply to them in the first place.
    Monkashuffle
    <Arctic Avengers>
    Ravencrest-EU

  4. #264
    Bloodsail Admiral Zephire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Life
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    What you are not seeing is the feedback loop.
    There is content, you do that content, you get gear. The more difficult the content the better the gear with better stats. The better gear with stats, the easier the content, so the more better gear with stats, so the more difficult the content has to be ... This creates a bifurcation, a split, where above a certain threshold you are accelerating through the ever increasingly difficult content, and below which you are falling further and further behind.

    In systems terms you have created "balance" around an 'unstable equilibrium', meaning that if you get slightly to the left or the right of the balance point, you are falling further and further away from it.

    As a game designer this is the opposite of what you want. You want a system the has a stable equilibrium to balance around. Rather than accelerate away, a deviation from the point the trajectory the game had in mind it requires more and more energy of the player the further they are away from balance to maintain the imbalance. So 'better' players can run ahead, but face increasingly harder odds to get better gear, while 'worse' players will fall behind, but will have increasingly better chances of catching up. At the very least you want variance in player power from gear to be within a rather tight range at the drop of a new expansion, or you'll face ever further disparity and soon find you can not possibly accommodate such a wide range of player power within the same game.

    In the 'old days', the way this worked was through encounter nerfs. You just reduced the health/mechanics of encounters to give the stragglers a chance to get with the program again. It works on some points, but failed dramatically on player psychology. Those that had 'failed' before the nerf came in felt bad, as they had obviously failed and were exposed as such, those that had defeated the content before the nerf, now had even less content as even repeating a kill was now even more trivial than it had become already with the better gear they now had.

    Modern systems are more subtle. Rather than nerfing the encounter explicitly with a certain reset, they provide continual statistical gear catchup as an implicit gradual nerf over time as long as you are not close to the current cap. So stragglers now will get improved odds at beating the content over time, and there is no real "you failed" moment, besides CE or AotC, but those are far more accesible things than 'pre-nerf" ever could be.
    Hat of to you for this text, good read, well formated and just on point.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    Titanforging was mathematically a beautiful systemic solution. If you studied the implementation you couldn't but marvel at how good it was done. What they had completely forgotten was human psychology. They way less systemic, less mathematically savvy players would experience the system was ofc not 'objective', but fed by the outliers in a massive social echo chamber, just like everything else in society. So cries on the forums about 'my freind of a friend saw an LFR dude get a cap ilvl TF' were ofc treated with a reserved reasoning on probability and fact checked with available data from the armory and warcraftlogs and ... no, it was a shitshow, obviously no data, no rational argument would convince a rabit mob of players that getting Mythic geared through LFR wasn't possible before the heat dead of the universe, nor that TF did not mean the end of meritocracy but just a way to converge on content, just like the old ways but better.

    So TF had to be sacrificed to the angry mobs shouting 'off with it's head', and instead we got 'Corruptions', a system funnily enough hailed as 'better' by the pundits, which just required one look at the implementation to realize that rather than sophisticated this was just a completely blunt and near unbalancable sledgehammer, and that was even before you realized it would be on BoE's to.
    Why was TF so beautiful? What made the "Corruptions" implementation bad? Could you elaborate some?

    Corruption, for me, is much more interesting than TF ever was. We have a static iLvL, improved by difficulty of content. We have a bonus stat which have different effects but also adds corruption as a stat. I got several different corruption pieces that I switch between, looking for different things like flavour, max damage, gimics etc. That I could not do with TF.

    I also really like that Power comes at a price (corruption level) and that you have to work with that in your build.

    The only thing I do not like is that the only way to get a corruption (except for some raid items) is by chance. You can't work your way towards a desired corruption. Also some spelleffects not being visual enough (Twilight Devestation vs most others, TD is just way more visual than it's opposition).

    Not taking in account balance since it's something everchanging, only talking about general concept.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Hat of to you for this text, good read, well formated and just on point.


    Why was TF so beautiful? What made the "Corruptions" implementation bad? Could you elaborate some?

    Corruption, for me, is much more interesting than TF ever was. We have a static iLvL, improved by difficulty of content. We have a bonus stat which have different effects but also adds corruption as a stat. I got several different corruption pieces that I switch between, looking for different things like flavour, max damage, gimics etc. That I could not do with TF.

    I also really like that Power comes at a price (corruption level) and that you have to work with that in your build.

    The only thing I do not like is that the only way to get a corruption (except for some raid items) is by chance. You can't work your way towards a desired corruption. Also some spelleffects not being visual enough (Twilight Devestation vs most others, TD is just way more visual than it's opposition).

    Not taking in account balance since it's something everchanging, only talking about general concept.
    I'd prefer if you had another stat next to corruption and corruption resistance to tailor the downsides as well, because of how massively their annoyance-factor varies depending on spec.
    So let's say you have 100 corruption, 50 corruption resist and then you either cover the last 50% with items that give specific downsides or get some generic passive downside for any remaining corruption (damage taken, less movement speed, healing taken or whatever). The "resist with a downside" stat would have to get extremely common for this to work, obviously.
    Also the downsides being 0 ICD RPPM is extremely dumb.
    Monkashuffle
    <Arctic Avengers>
    Ravencrest-EU

  6. #266
    Bloodsail Admiral Zephire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Life
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    I'd prefer if you had another stat next to corruption and corruption resistance to tailor the downsides as well, because of how massively their annoyance-factor varies depending on spec.
    So let's say you have 100 corruption, 50 corruption resist and then you either cover the last 50% with items that give specific downsides or get some generic passive downside for any remaining corruption (damage taken, less movement speed, healing taken or whatever). The "resist with a downside" stat would have to get extremely common for this to work, obviously.
    Also the downsides being 0 ICD RPPM is extremely dumb.
    Well, I'm sure curruption can be made better and I would also like it to be a bit more flexible with how I combine gear. If some had extra resistance of if you had say "light infused" counterparts that added resistance, things might get really interesting

    Whats "ICD RPPM"?
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Well, I'm sure curruption can be made better and I would also like it to be a bit more flexible with how I combine gear. If some had extra resistance of if you had say "light infused" counterparts that added resistance, things might get really interesting

    Whats "ICD RPPM"?
    ICD is internal cooldown, as in the shortest possible time between procs. RPPM is the proc system used for basically everything since Throne of Thunder, where the proc chance ramps up the longer it's been since the last proc. Basically it's why you can get multiple eyes/things in a row if you're unlucky, there's nothing to safeguard against it because it has no ICD.
    Monkashuffle
    <Arctic Avengers>
    Ravencrest-EU

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    It's more like "alright i got everything i needed now i don't have anything else to do", well there's still many things to do, even when you get bis everything, and usually progression is for you, if you have all bis. Or i don't know, go do PVP stuff, PVP essences, something. Get higher m+ score, get achievements of the expansion, even do visions with 5 masks to get the mount etc. RNG and lottery are basically the same atm xD
    Exactly. And in the future Blizzard just need to focus even more on making repetitive content which players want to do because they enjoy the actual content. Infinite gear progression should be needed to keep players doing the content. The content just have to be fun and competitive. Look at other games like for example CS GO. It's an extremely repetitive game, but people keep playing it because they enjoy the content. People don't play CS GO to get gear.

  9. #269
    I'm not against the Corruption but there are several points I don't like:

    - It actually feels fine for my main that levels the cloak. I can play around with different items and corruption effects. But it is very underwhelming if a simple corrutpion effect is on of you biggest damage component. It just feels arbitrary as it is not actual player power progression as the jumps are so massiv for one single items.

    - I hate it with alts. I just started gearing my shaman, she bearly has the cloak but already got several corrupted items from world quests. Especially for twinks wf/tf was very nice as it would help you push your itemlevel to get into more difficult content. At the moment I feel punished twice, I have way to much corruption I cannot compensate and it gets more difficult to push my itemlevel

    - The power difference in the effects is just too big, some are still very overpowered and others are barely worth the downside effect.

    - It feels like the sole purpose is to promote leveling the cloak and therefore in consequence doing assaults and dailies.

    - Blizz again manages to contradict their mantra ilvl > all which makes it basically impossible to decide if loot is actually an upgrade without a third party tool.

    - The name of the effect, like echoing void or infinite stars, is never mentioned on the item but still Blizz uses those terms in their official communication. This again increases the need for third party tools to assess your gear.
    Last edited by Moonsorrow; 2020-03-04 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #270
    It´s very lazy game design and turning wow into an instanced ARPG. If I wanted to farm the same piece of gear 682973670876 times to get the right affixes I would play Diablo. Stop Diablofying wow.

  11. #271
    Dosent work anymore today's youth dont care for spending hours getting 1 item. And thoose who grew up with wow dont have the time. I would gladly pay double sub fee and just have vendor for gear corruption azerite etc so i can just enjoy raiding and high keys and stop wasting time getting everything

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildpantz View Post
    Dosent work anymore today's youth dont care for spending hours getting 1 item. And thoose who grew up with wow dont have the time. I would gladly pay double sub fee and just have vendor for gear corruption azerite etc so i can just enjoy raiding and high keys and stop wasting time getting everything
    The problem is, I currently feel like palying a loot shooter à la Destiny 2 where I get tons of gear but basically everything is just crap and only one in a hundred is actually an upgrade. Thinking about it, the scrapper is direct copy from the possibility to salvage gear in Destiny 2 or Anthem.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    The problem is that him being a good lead encounter designer doesn't mean he'll be a good lead for the entire game. I completely agree he did a great job in his previous position, I just don't think he does a great job in his current one. People also massively overrate Legion when it was essentially the same expansion as BfA just with artifacts/legendaries doing a better job at hiding how bad class design has gotten than their BfA equivalents.
    I don't disagree with you. I was just pointing out how it's an incredibly bad faith argument to (as OP did) say that "Blizzard hired a lawyer to obfuscate for them" instead of "Blizzard hired a hugely influential community member who went on to have a decade of success in his role at the company. Damn shame that putting him in charge of everything isn't panning out since he was so good at his previous job." I personally don't care whose in the position, but the point we're at with the tin foil narratives is kinda out of control.

  14. #274
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,288
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    What you are not seeing is the feedback loop.
    There is content, you do that content, you get gear. The more difficult the content the better the gear with better stats. The better gear with stats, the easier the content, so the more better gear with stats, so the more difficult the content has to be ... This creates a bifurcation, a split, where above a certain threshold you are accelerating through the ever increasingly difficult content, and below which you are falling further and further behind.

    In systems terms you have created "balance" around an 'unstable equilibrium', meaning that if you get slightly to the left or the right of the balance point, you are falling further and further away from it.

    As a game designer this is the opposite of what you want. You want a system the has a stable equilibrium to balance around. Rather than accelerate away, a deviation from the point the trajectory the game had in mind it requires more and more energy of the player the further they are away from balance to maintain the imbalance. So 'better' players can run ahead, but face increasingly harder odds to get better gear, while 'worse' players will fall behind, but will have increasingly better chances of catching up. At the very least you want variance in player power from gear to be within a rather tight range at the drop of a new expansion, or you'll face ever further disparity and soon find you can not possibly accommodate such a wide range of player power within the same game.

    In the 'old days', the way this worked was through encounter nerfs. You just reduced the health/mechanics of encounters to give the stragglers a chance to get with the program again. It works on some points, but failed dramatically on player psychology. Those that had 'failed' before the nerf came in felt bad, as they had obviously failed and were exposed as such, those that had defeated the content before the nerf, now had even less content as even repeating a kill was now even more trivial than it had become already with the better gear they now had.

    Modern systems are more subtle. Rather than nerfing the encounter explicitly with a certain reset, they provide continual statistical gear catchup as an implicit gradual nerf over time as long as you are not close to the current cap. So stragglers now will get improved odds at beating the content over time, and there is no real "you failed" moment, besides CE or AotC, but those are far more accesible things than 'pre-nerf" ever could be.

    Titanforging was mathematically a beautiful systemic solution. If you studied the implementation you couldn't but marvel at how good it was done. What they had completely forgotten was human psychology. They way less systemic, less mathematically savvy players would experience the system was ofc not 'objective', but fed by the outliers in a massive social echo chamber, just like everything else in society. So cries on the forums about 'my freind of a friend saw an LFR dude get a cap ilvl TF' were ofc treated with a reserved reasoning on probability and fact checked with available data from the armory and warcraftlogs and ... no, it was a shitshow, obviously no data, no rational argument would convince a rabit mob of players that getting Mythic geared through LFR wasn't possible before the heat dead of the universe, nor that TF did not mean the end of meritocracy but just a way to converge on content, just like the old ways but better.

    So TF had to be sacrificed to the angry mobs shouting 'off with it's head', and instead we got 'Corruptions', a system funnily enough hailed as 'better' by the pundits, which just required one look at the implementation to realize that rather than sophisticated this was just a completely blunt and near unbalancable sledgehammer, and that was even before you realized it would be on BoE's to.
    The bolded part ignores the fact that one of the reasons for "failure" for mid-level guilds was the attrition of people getting bored, not showing up and rosters getting harder to fill over the course of the tier.

    People didn't actually want to continue over the same ground they'd been grinding for the past several months until it was done. I certainly never felt bad about not finishing a Mythic or equivalent tier off after a nerf or into the next tier. I was ready to move on, plenty of players had moved on.

    It also meant we were starting the next tier some levels of gear behind so it's literally harder for us from day one than those starting with full BiS.

    Only a very, very small percentage of players actually finish a Mythic tier, it seems absurd to presume they know how I feel, how anyone feels, or indeed to cater an ever diminishing playerbase to their feelings. They're going to play and push and grind no matter what, so the reality is, their opinions really don't matter.

  15. #275
    Pandaren Monk Playintrafic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Gnomeregan
    Posts
    1,937
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Frankly, I don''t want to go back to the 'normal gear' days. It's too predictable. I want loot to feel like unpredictable loot, and much less like a shopping list which can be marked off, as it was in the past.

    I've played this game for over 15 years now and the corruption system is by far the most exciting & fun experience I've had with gearing a character.
    You must not competing at even a regular raid level then

    This is the most confusing, aggravating and unnessecary system ever implemented. Good corruptions are worth 40-55 ilvl.

    Bad corruptions can be good for air or certain bosses.

    I shouldn't need 2 30 slot bags full of corruptions, asserite, and non corrupted pieces to be able to compete, not even in a world first guild

  16. #276
    Well to me, it's not even that the systems are shitty (they are) but they feel pointless cause you do all the work and then they remove it for something else next expansion.

    I play MMOs cause I want my effort and stuff to stick around, not grind for the sake of grinding so with the new systems I don't participate in them at all.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Playintrafic View Post
    You must not competing at even a regular raid level then

    This is the most confusing, aggravating and unnessecary system ever implemented. Good corruptions are worth 40-55 ilvl.

    Bad corruptions can be good for air or certain bosses.

    I shouldn't need 2 30 slot bags full of corruptions, asserite, and non corrupted pieces to be able to compete, not even in a world first guild
    Good corruptions are worth 200-400 ilvls. not 40-45.

  18. #278
    The Lightbringer Azerox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Groningen
    Posts
    3,181
    Wished you could transfer corruption effects to other items.
    Like in some sort of ritual.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    "Worked for ages". Of course you don't remember growing "nothing to do" and "AFKing in capital" problem that reach it's peak during WoD. Now you don't even have to remember this, just watch what 60s usually do in Classic.
    Sounds like a problem with the amount of content delivery and not the gear itself.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Not sure why - people used to roll alts in BC/LK when there was no way to perma-grind something on your main. It was so much more fun.
    Or you could accept that good was good enough and roll an alt anyway. This obsession with BiS is unhealthy. Why do you think they did away with the world/realm first races? By making true BiS impossible they likely hoped people would give up on it and stop stressing so much. You know, accept when a high titanforge or trifecta is icing on the cake, instead of not having it is not having cake at all. That's how I see it.
    "Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer." Powerogue 2019

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •