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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    In retail you level through an incredibly bland on-rails experience that doesn’t even let you move on from zones because you stay in the same zones as the leveling ones for the whole expansion and they scale with you so the leveling is meaningless.

    Then you hit max level and in literally one or two days you could have run every dungeon and every raid.
    While I would agree this is all a very subjective feel, I'll give my hot take.
    What are the End Game dungeons of Classic? Diremaul, BRD (maybe) Upper and Lowers, Strat live/undead and Scholo. If you can't run those within a day or two, I question something. (Let me know if I missed one, I only got as far as level 52 into Classic :3 )
    Conversely, BFA has a dozen dungeons that are considered End Game content, due to their scaling, even when you discount Mythic scaling and several of them can't even be done until 120.

    I personally prefer the raid structure of BFA. In BFA, you only run the previous tier for very specific trinkets for very specific specs, kind of like in MC to Classic.

    However, there's no BiS Legendary bindings in Uldir to keep me going back there for garbage loot, which I personally like as visiting previous tiers holds 0 interest for me as it's antiqued content.
    I can hardly bother myself to run Heroic Nyalotha, I personally would hate feeling obligated to run MC, Ony, ZG and BWL all in one week, even if they're easy and quick.
    (This doesn't even include the world dragons, Kazzak, AQ20/40 or Naxx. Yikes)

    Or to the idea of dungeons in Classic vs BFA. Let's say for sake of Hyperbole, my BiS mainhand is an Ironfoe from BRD.
    (Gonna compare 2 rare mainhands for sake of comparison)
    How many runs would it take to get that, realistically speaking? I've read it taking near 100 kills, and even with lava skips that's a tall order.

    In M+, yeah I'd need a Bilecrawg tusk every season, but at least now it just has to drop, and is tradeable by several classes to circumvent personal loot.
    Sure it could get a socket, which I can farm for now anyway so it's less of an issue, or Corrupt. Nice thing about corruption, you can mix/match gear. Fun stuff!

    I tried to enjoy Classic, and for the time I played it, I did. That being said, I was an altaholic between 2006-2008 so I'm well aware of what Classic leveling more or less feels like.

    It's a means to an end, having leveled in Vanilla and several other characters into mid TBC, I don't find that it's an immersive or adventuresome experience.
    Hell even in BFA I've only capped 1 of 7 120s via zone questing. I leveled a Warlock from 110-120 strictly through Islands during the Uldir patch.
    2 others I leveled via Dungeons, BGs and Timewalking. Quite the varied experience compared to my time in Classic, which realistically has far fewer efficient options for leveling paths.

    As for on-rails, I don't personally mind much. The zones even culminate in doing that zone's dungeon as a small climax to your efforts, which reminds me of Westfall more or less ending in the Dead Mines and slaying Vanqueef. (Which as a side note, god I miss Old Smite. I play Classic every now and again just for Deadmines <3 )

    In closing, I respect that you've been able to stick to your guns during this thread, many would have quit over the bickering. Best of luck to you in all your future travels.
    /Cheers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    As if the horde faction imbalance could be worse now we have floofy foxes
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    and he's got a fat ass
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    BfA is a black hole. A void of nothing.
    No community.
    Can (and will) be played solo and without ever saying a word.

    Classic is the one and only good MMORPG of the market.

    Facts
    LMAO Classic is so fucking easy you definitely don't need to talk to anyone ever unless you're in one of the better raid guilds (more because of social convention than actual necessity) or do organized PvP. In BfA you can't do much of the real endgame without talking to people ... raids, mythic+ and pvp. But grats, you did a WQ and picked a flower without a group ... you beat the game without talking to anyone.

    Not sure why I'm even responding to you since you're just a nonsense troll about all things BfA but what you say is so absurd I can't help myself.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by dazie View Post
    Hey Team,

    Just starting Wow Classic now as I finally have the time again,

    Any advice for a good NA Pvp server I generally like pretty full busy servers even if there is queues or else the world feels too empty for me,

    Now the game has been out for awhile I'm happy to play any role/class is there any feeling for what roles are more in demand tank/DPS/healers

    Thanks
    Seeing a lot of extremely unhelpful comments coming your way. Ultimately, if you wanna play classic, play it. It's time-consuming in its own way, the same as BFA is.

    If you want to be in demand, tanks and healers are the top picks, especially tanks. Good DPS isn't as hard to come by but still valuable (fury warrior, rogue, warlock, mage). You're rolling a healer, do yourself a favor and if you're alliance, go Dwarf. It'll help. If you're going to play horde, you're going to be waiting a really long fucking time to get into BGs due to imbalance. If you pick alliance, you're going to have instant queues, but typically fewer wins per hour or no wins at all in AV. It depends on what's important to you.

    Pick a high pop server, Faerline, Whitemane, Herod, Fairbanks, etc.

    Leveling zones are always populated. A lot of people are dungeon grinding, but you should have no problem finding a questing group, dungeon group, or elite group wherever you go on a high pop server.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    LMAO Classic is so fucking easy you definitely don't need to talk to anyone ever unless you're in one of the better raid guilds (more because of social convention than actual necessity) or do organized PvP. In BfA you can't do much of the real endgame without talking to people ... raids, mythic+ and pvp. But grats, you did a WQ and picked a flower without a group ... you beat the game without talking to anyone.

    Not sure why I'm even responding to you since you're just a nonsense troll about all things BfA but what you say is so absurd I can't help myself.
    Since every piece of content in retail has an easy mode, you can also run all of the content in retail without talking to anyone. Increased difficulty versions of content you already completed isn’t “content” at all; it’s a trick, a scam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    While I would agree this is all a very subjective feel, I'll give my hot take.
    What are the End Game dungeons of Classic? Diremaul, BRD (maybe) Upper and Lowers, Strat live/undead and Scholo. If you can't run those within a day or two, I question something. (Let me know if I missed one, I only got as far as level 52 into Classic :3 )
    Conversely, BFA has a dozen dungeons that are considered End Game content, due to their scaling, even when you discount Mythic scaling and several of them can't even be done until 120.
    Dire Maul is three dungeons.
    BRD is absolutely huge.
    You missed Sunken Temple, although that one is arguable.

    The collective size of those dungeons easily rivals BFA.

    Classic also has ~20 leveling dungeons, and I don't think its fair to ignore those, especially considering that BFA allows you to skip leveling up to the expansion entirely, and if you choose to level it rockets you through leveling so fast that the dungeons don't really matter.

    I personally prefer the raid structure of BFA. In BFA, you only run the previous tier for very specific trinkets for very specific specs, kind of like in MC to Classic.

    However, there's no BiS Legendary bindings in Uldir to keep me going back there for garbage loot, which I personally like as visiting previous tiers holds 0 interest for me as it's antiqued content.
    I can hardly bother myself to run Heroic Nyalotha, I personally would hate feeling obligated to run MC, Ony, ZG and BWL all in one week, even if they're easy and quick.
    (This doesn't even include the world dragons, Kazzak, AQ20/40 or Naxx. Yikes)
    The argument you just made is that wow classic has too much relevant raid content. That's a very weird argument to me.

    Or to the idea of dungeons in Classic vs BFA. Let's say for sake of Hyperbole, my BiS mainhand is an Ironfoe from BRD.
    (Gonna compare 2 rare mainhands for sake of comparison)
    How many runs would it take to get that, realistically speaking? I've read it taking near 100 kills, and even with lava skips that's a tall order.
    It's a mistake to approach classic saying "I need the best in slot". There are plenty of sufficient, relevant weapons you can get, and since there is no endlessly scaling content and difficulty tiers, the notion of needing "the best" to progress just doesn't match the reality of the game. Also, the existence of extremely rare gear is a plus in my book.

    In M+, yeah I'd need a Bilecrawg tusk every season, but at least now it just has to drop, and is tradeable by several classes to circumvent personal loot.
    Sure it could get a socket, which I can farm for now anyway so it's less of an issue, or Corrupt. Nice thing about corruption, you can mix/match gear. Fun stuff!
    M+ is the dullest activity ever added to the game in my opinion, so any point that hinges on it loses me quickly.

    I tried to enjoy Classic, and for the time I played it, I did. That being said, I was an altaholic between 2006-2008 so I'm well aware of what Classic leveling more or less feels like.

    It's a means to an end, having leveled in Vanilla and several other characters into mid TBC, I don't find that it's an immersive or adventuresome experience.
    Hell even in BFA I've only capped 1 of 7 120s via zone questing. I leveled a Warlock from 110-120 strictly through Islands during the Uldir patch.
    2 others I leveled via Dungeons, BGs and Timewalking. Quite the varied experience compared to my time in Classic, which realistically has far fewer efficient options for leveling paths.
    I just disagree. I find everything you described horribly dull. Leveling via timewalking in particular sounds dreadful. I want to go out and work my way through the world, not get funneled into, once again, endlessly scaling content.

    As for on-rails, I don't personally mind much. The zones even culminate in doing that zone's dungeon as a small climax to your efforts, which reminds me of Westfall more or less ending in the Dead Mines and slaying Vanqueef. (Which as a side note, god I miss Old Smite. I play Classic every now and again just for Deadmines <3 )
    On one hand, I love in Classic when the quests culminate in a big final thing, like a dungeon. That's fun. On the other hand, retail has swung too far. The quests feel like such a ridiculous grind that I'm being shepherded through, rather than classic where I feel like I have genuine, meaningful choices about where to go and what to do. Traveling across the world feels meaningful, there is an investment to it. I actually need to think about where I am going and why I am going there, planning out my paths.

    In closing, I respect that you've been able to stick to your guns during this thread, many would have quit over the bickering. Best of luck to you in all your future travels.
    /Cheers!
    I appreciate your criticisms of classic, and I don't think that they are without merit. Classic is not a perfect game and I think that a significantly better game could be made if the same design principles were polished and carried forward. Unfortunately, that's not what Blizzard has chosen to do. Instead, they've chosen a very treadmill approach, with all the scaling and difficulty levels. I think that these are objectively bad design decisions, not because Classic got it perfect, but because they've sucked all sense of wonder out of the game.

    I have zero desire to run a dungeon or a raid that I already stomped on an easy mode difficulty. It really spoils the fun, sucks me right out of the game, and makes the seams in the world stick out. I'm glad Blizzard has stuck to their guns fixing their biggest mistake (flying) by restricting it at the beginning of expansions. I wish they would take that logic farther and stop trying to design the game in such a way that every single piece of content is meant to be repeated ad nauseum as it scales with you. It's an RPG. I want to grow more powerful, not have the world grow more powerful with me.

  5. #185
    Banned Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    LMAO Classic is so fucking easy you definitely don't need to talk to anyone ever unless you're in one of the better raid guilds (more because of social convention than actual necessity) or do organized PvP. In BfA you can't do much of the real endgame without talking to people ... raids, mythic+ and pvp. But grats, you did a WQ and picked a flower without a group ... you beat the game without talking to anyone.

    Not sure why I'm even responding to you since you're just a nonsense troll about all things BfA but what you say is so absurd I can't help myself.
    You just mentioned the same things for both Classic and Retail.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    You just mentioned the same things for both Classic and Retail.
    First of all, I didn't ... try reading again. And second, even if I did, that would mean the person I was responding to was completely wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Since every piece of content in retail has an easy mode, you can also run all of the content in retail without talking to anyone. Increased difficulty versions of content you already completed isn’t “content” at all; it’s a trick, a scam.
    What a completely random and illogical thing to say. I guess in your world getting a better job is just a scam since you're still doing something to get some money ... the variance in the importance of what you do and how much you get compensated is just a scam, a dirty trick I tell you!

    Some people like Classic more. That's cool, good for those people. But the number of folks that need to come up with some bizarre justification not to like retail is frankly disturbing. I have friends playing Classic and I've tried to like it and I just don't care to invest the time as compared to other things I could be doing. But I don't need to make up reasons why I don't really care for it.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post


    What a completely random and illogical thing to say. I guess in your world getting a better job is just a scam since you're still doing something to get some money ... the variance in the importance of what you do and how much you get compensated is just a scam, a dirty trick I tell you!

    Some people like Classic more. That's cool, good for those people. But the number of folks that need to come up with some bizarre justification not to like retail is frankly disturbing. I have friends playing Classic and I've tried to like it and I just don't care to invest the time as compared to other things I could be doing. But I don't need to make up reasons why I don't really care for it.
    You own a 100hp car. There is LITERALLY no reason to try and make it 200hp - there is no difference - its a scam i tell ya, a SCAM!

    Its official - improvement is a SCAM and we should all do the easiest version of everything ever - lucky the Olympic games are likely cancelled, because trying to do the same thing as everyone else, but better / faster is a SCAM!

    We should all strive for mediocrity and when we achieve it, stop - LITERALLY no reason to improve at anything ever - if its hard, if its challenging, just dont bother!

  8. #188
    Banned Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    First of all, I didn't ... try reading again. And second, even if I did, that would mean the person I was responding to was completely wrong.

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    What a completely random and illogical thing to say. I guess in your world getting a better job is just a scam since you're still doing something to get some money ... the variance in the importance of what you do and how much you get compensated is just a scam, a dirty trick I tell you!

    Some people like Classic more. That's cool, good for those people. But the number of folks that need to come up with some bizarre justification not to like retail is frankly disturbing. I have friends playing Classic and I've tried to like it and I just don't care to invest the time as compared to other things I could be doing. But I don't need to make up reasons why I don't really care for it.
    First of all, you didn't. Try reading your own stuff again. Just pointing out you contradicted yourself and your basis of argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You own a 100hp car. There is LITERALLY no reason to try and make it 200hp - there is no difference - its a scam i tell ya, a SCAM!

    Its official - improvement is a SCAM and we should all do the easiest version of everything ever - lucky the Olympic games are likely cancelled, because trying to do the same thing as everyone else, but better / faster is a SCAM!

    We should all strive for mediocrity and when we achieve it, stop - LITERALLY no reason to improve at anything ever - if its hard, if its challenging, just dont bother!
    To be fair, there isn't much difference between LFR and Normal. There's a jump between normal and heroic but is there much between heroic and mythic?

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    First of all, you didn't. Try reading your own stuff again. Just pointing out you contradicted yourself and your basis of argument.

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    To be fair, there isn't much difference between LFR and Normal. There's a jump between normal and heroic but is there much between heroic and mythic?
    Is there much difference between LFR and Mythic? I should also add that your first comment is quite misleading - if you finished one of the LFR sectors and then summoned all those people, as is, into normal, you would struggle to get 2 bosses down.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-03-23 at 11:58 PM.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    First of all, I didn't ... try reading again. And second, even if I did, that would mean the person I was responding to was completely wrong.

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    What a completely random and illogical thing to say. I guess in your world getting a better job is just a scam since you're still doing something to get some money ... the variance in the importance of what you do and how much you get compensated is just a scam, a dirty trick I tell you!

    Some people like Classic more. That's cool, good for those people. But the number of folks that need to come up with some bizarre justification not to like retail is frankly disturbing. I have friends playing Classic and I've tried to like it and I just don't care to invest the time as compared to other things I could be doing. But I don't need to make up reasons why I don't really care for it.
    Disliking the lazy game design of scaling content and difficulty tiers is not “making up reasons”. These are criticisms that get levied at lots of games. Diablo 3 at launch was skewered for making you run the same game over and over and over again on higher difficulties. Destiny and Destiny 2 have been continually criticized for the same thing, but they don’t have it anywhere near as bad as retail WoW does.

    To use your analogy, scaling content is more like “you get promoted and make more money, but everything also costs you more, and also your new job is exactly the same as your old job except we added some more inconveniences.”

    What you get compensated for progressing in classic with is access to new content. What you get compensated for progressing in retail with is access to harder versions of content you already completed.

    And that’s in the best case scenario. In the case of leveling and questing, you literally become WEAKER when you hit 120 than you were at 119, because the outdoor world scaling jumps, so after 10 meaningless levels where you never felt any change whatsoever because everything scaled with you, you are rewarded by being.. weaker relative to the world.

    But don’t worry, now that you are max level you get access to new outdoor content like world quests... which are almost all just repeating the same quests you already did while leveling.

    That’s absurdly bad game design, and it’s amazing the hoops people will jump through to defend it. If I completely out of context came to you and said “I’ve got this idea for a game, and the way it works is you finish everything in the game in a few hours, but then here’s the twist: you get to do it on 17 more difficulty levels after that” you would laugh at me and say that sounds asinine, but it’s exactly the kind of lazy, cynical insulting game design you are defending

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Is there much difference between LFR and Mythic?
    No there isn’t. It’s the exact same content. And when someone says to me “in this game you first do the entire thing on easy mode but then you do it on normal mode and then on hard mode and THEN THE FUN STARTS” I laugh and return the game and play something else that is not designed to insult me.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    snip
    You right off the higher difficulties as being the same thing, but admit you only do lfr?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    No there isn’t. It’s the exact same content
    . And when someone says to me “in this game you first do the entire thing on easy mode but then you do it on normal mode and then on hard mode and THEN THE FUN STARTS” I laugh and return the game and play something else that is not designed to insult me.
    Yeah, honestly, you are entirely delusional and not worth talking to at all.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You right off the higher difficulties as being the same thing, but admit you only do lfr?
    Can you list for me the bosses in LFR and the bosses in normal so we can analyze the difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You right off the higher difficulties as being the same thing, but admit you only do lfr?

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    Yeah, honestly, you are entirely delusional and not worth talking to at all.
    I’m not the one claiming that running the same thing over and over again constitutes more content. That’s pure delusion.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Can you list for me the bosses in LFR and the bosses in normal so we can analyze the difference?

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    I’m not the one claiming that running the same thing over and over again constitutes more content. That’s pure delusion.
    *Cough* MC *Cough*
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    *Cough* MC *Cough*
    Yeah, MC is one raid, one piece of content (and a pretty lame one).

    I’m not the one claiming that four difficulties means four different raids.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    I’m not the one claiming that four difficulties means four different raids.
    This, ladies and gentleman, is the very definition of a straw-man argument. Deep down you know your argument is pathetic, so you resort to tired old fallacies like this.

    What you are saying is that there is no greater sense of accomplishment or achievement than finishing a raid on LFR, and that LFR and Mythic are exactly the same thing, with zero differences, so there is no reason to do anything other than LFR.

    When applied to some other examples, i hope you will see how insane this logic is, however i doubt it.

    You are arguing that walking 100m in 4 minutes is exactly the same thing as sprinting the same 100m in under 10seconds, and there is no difference in accomplishment or achievement between the two.

    You are arguing that a kid mucking around in a peddle car is no different to F1.

    Your arguments are ridiculous and entirely illogical, made worse by your admission that you only actually raid on LFR.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-03-24 at 01:01 AM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This, ladies and gentleman, is the very definition of a straw-man argument. Deep down you know your argument is pathetic, so you resort to tired old fallacies like this.
    Is mythic different content than LFR or is it not? You can’t seem to make up your mind. You object to me saying they are the same content, and then you claim that they are the same content.

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    Is a quest one piece of content, or is it one piece of content when it’s a leveling quest and a second piece of content when it’s a world quest?

    Is a dungeon one piece of content, or is it 18 pieces of content, one for each difficulty?

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Kpmk View Post
    Yes that open world full of players was super awesome for the 2 weeks that it lasted. But it has been gone for a very long time now.
    That 2 weeks was the worst part of Classic. Only good thing about it was that it immediately ended once BGs were released.

  18. #198
    Is there any fresh servers coming out? I finally have enough time to start playing once again, would prefer a fresh server if possible. Anyone know here?

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Is there any fresh servers coming out? I finally have enough time to start playing once again, would prefer a fresh server if possible. Anyone know here?
    Super unlikely since the existing servers are leaking players too. Only reason they would release fresh server(s) would be to attract more players, and I highly doubt there are that many interested players left.

    TBH it's more likely they will start merging the less popular servers soon.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Is there any fresh servers coming out? I finally have enough time to start playing once again, would prefer a fresh server if possible. Anyone know here?
    Multiple servers have less than 500 players total. You are barking up the wrong tree. Less.....than.....500.....players.

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