Starting Classic Wow advice

[Ehrenpanzer]

Hey Team,

Just starting Wow Classic now as I finally have the time again ,

Any advice for a good NA Pvp server I generally like pretty full busy servers even if there is queues or else the world feels too empty for me,

Now the game has been out for awhile I'm happy to play any role / class is there any feeling for what roles are more in demand tank/dps/healers

Thanks

Tanks and healers are always in demand. My advice? Take it slow, enjoy the levelling process, engage with people in the open world. Avoid the AH like the plague unless you are selling until max level

[Belloc]

You must be drowning in women.

What, exactly, is your fucking problem? You argued that my attitude is toxic and that people want a source of progression outside of item level... and then I make posts about a part of the game that I enjoyed that involved progression outside of item level... and now you're making posts like this?

If you're just going to make whiny, bitchy little posts, even when people address your complaints, then you are contributing nothing to this community and you really don't need to be here. Do us all a favor and grow the fuck up or get the fuck out.

I know that being wrong hurts, but doubling down and being even more wrong is not the answer.

[NineSpine]

What, exactly, is your fucking problem? You argued that my attitude is toxic and that people want a source of progression outside of item level... and then I make posts about a part of the game that I enjoyed that involved progression outside of item level... and now you're making posts like this?

If you're just going to make whiny, bitchy little posts, even when people address your complaints, then you are contributing nothing to this community and you really don't need to be here. Do us all a favor and grow the fuck up or get the fuck out.

I know that being wrong hurts, but doubling down and being even more wrong is not the answer.

My problem is that you come to the classic forum to tell us how awful classic is, proceed to define yourself into being correct by defining playing the game as a "grind", and then ultimately use this as a platform for really weird, condescending gloating about achievements that literally nobody except you cares about.

The retail wow model is built on scaling and multiple difficulty tiers. THAT is a grind. When you finish the content and the next thing is... the same content with bigger numbers... that's a grind, and its the worst kind of grind. If you think that climbing 15 ranks of mythic dungeons, which are the same dungeons over and over and over again, and all you get rewarded with is more gear to do.... more of the same dungeons... isn't a grind, you don't quite understand what a grind is.

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You literally came to a forum for something you *don't like* to tell us why we shouldn't like it either. And then you tell everyone else to grow up? Seriously?

I don't like dogs. I don't go to dog forums to tell people why they should like cats more, because I can't even put myself into the headspace I would need to be in to do something that absolutely bizarre, childish, and a waste of my time.

[Belloc]

I didn't say that it was awful -- I said that it was a grind. If you like grinds then Classic is great for you. Also, I didn't define "playing the game" as a grind. I called leveling a grind because you literally have to kill random mobs to get through certain parts of the leveling process, since there aren't enough quests to do the job. That's a grind. No one with a clue can argue against that. I called PvP a grind because... you're running the same BGs over and over and over again for hours a day just to have access to the gear. That's a grind. I called farming resistance gear a grind because... you have to do it if you want to do other content and you wouldn't have any interest in doing it otherwise. That's a grind. I called the loot farm a grind because bosses drop, what, 2 epics for 40 people? Yeah, Vanilla/Classic had the biggest raid-loot grind ever!

And then you referred to my attitude as "toxic mania" and bitched about wanting other sources of progression that didn't involve item level... and then directly mocked me when I pointed out that one of my favorite parts of the game was an alternate source of progression that didn't involve item level. You know who loses an argument and then mocks the person they lost to? Children who haven't learned how to interact with their peers.

Let me break it down for you: You took offense to me calling Classic a grind, despite the fact that it is, objectively, the time period of WoW with the most brutal grinds. You took offense to it because you like Classic, but you don't like it being referred to as a grind. Well, sorry buddy, but you can't have it both ways. You're perfectly free to enjoy grinds -- pretty much every fan of Classic does -- but you can't sit here and complain about me calling it a grind when that's exactly what it is! You also can't sit here accusing my attitude of being toxic and only being interested in item level progression when I speak incredibly fondly of a non-item level source of progression that I loved. When you say stupid shit and then get proven wrong, the correct response is to apologize or remove yourself from that part of the conversation, not mock the person that you were wrong about.

Get your shit together and stop being butthurt because you attach negative connotations to an activity that you enjoy. You like grinding. Good for you. You're perfectly welcome to enjoy the grindiest part of WoW's history all you want ... just don't start throwing a fit when someone calls it what it is and refutes your bullshit claims. You can love something and defend it to the death and sometimes still be wrong. So, please, show some dignity and be wrong in peace instead of mocking other people when they call you out on your bullshit.

And now, since you're only interested in putting out inflammatory posts intended to cause fights, I'm going to lead by example and remove myself from this discussion, as well as permanently removing myself from discussing anything with you ever again by blocking you. I suggest you do the same, though I suspect you wont.

[lollerlaban]

You clearly never got very far into it, then. End-game raiding has been my thing for the entire time I've played WoW and getting to wave 66 Endless Tank Proving Grounds was more of a challenge than any raid encounter I've ever experienced. A single mistake over the last 20 minutes was pretty much a guaranteed wipe. Have you ever had one encounter last 66 straight minutes? Have you ever had to play flawlessly for over 20 straight minutes just so the previous 40 minutes weren't a complete waste of time? Yeah, I'm guessing no. Even the most hardcore raiders still get a minute or two break in between 5-10 minute attempts. I didn't get a break for a solid 66 minutes and I had no one to carry my ass if I made a mistake.

Maybe don't disparage people for enjoying content that you passed up. I tanked pretty much every max-difficulty raid encounter from TBC through most of MoP and none of it was anywhere near as challenging as wave 50+ of Endless Tank Proving Grounds. Anyone who never got past wave 50 in tanking has absolutely no idea what they're talking about when it comes to tanking proving grounds. That shit was hard.

And you just upped the cringe factor even more.

[NineSpine]

I didn't say that it was awful -- I said that it was a grind. If you like grinds then Classic is great for you. Also, I didn't define "playing the game" as a grind. I called leveling a grind because you literally have to kill random mobs to get through certain parts of the leveling process, since there aren't enough quests to do the job. That's a grind.

I've leveled multiple characters in both factions and never ran out of quests.

No one with a clue can argue against that. I called PvP a grind because... you're running the same BGs over and over and over again for hours a day just to have access to the gear. That's a grind.

The honor system is grindy, for sure. But its also optional. You can enjoy PvP without shooting for high ranks.

I called farming resistance gear a grind because... you have to do it if you want to do other content and you wouldn't have any interest in doing it otherwise. That's a grind. I called the loot farm a grind because bosses drop, what, 2 epics for 40 people? Yeah, Vanilla/Classic had the biggest raid-loot grind ever!

That's not what "grind" means. A grind is something that you have to repeat quickly. A raid that has a 7 day lockout cannot be a grind. Something you can do once per week is not a grind.

And then you referred to my attitude as "toxic mania" and bitched about wanting other sources of progression that didn't involve item level... and then directly mocked me when I pointed out that one of my favorite parts of the game was an alternate source of progression that didn't involve item level. You know who loses an argument and then mocks the person they lost to? Children who haven't learned how to interact with their peers.

Yes, it is toxic mania to define a once per week activity as a "grind".

Let me break it down for you: You took offense to me calling Classic a grind, despite the fact that it is, objectively, the time period of WoW with the most brutal grinds. You took offense to it because you like Classic, but you don't like it being referred to as a grind. Well, sorry buddy, but you can't have it both ways. You're perfectly free to enjoy grinds -- pretty much every fan of Classic does -- but you can't sit here and complain about me calling it a grind when that's exactly what it is! You also can't sit here accusing my attitude of being toxic and only being interested in item level progression when I speak incredibly fondly of a non-item level source of progression that I loved. When you say stupid shit and then get proven wrong, the correct response is to apologize or remove yourself from that part of the conversation, not mock the person that you were wrong about.

Retail WoW has randomized gear that encourages you to endlessly repeat content, to the point where it makes it almost impossible to complete an activity to the point where you don't need anything from it anymore. Everything scales, and when you finish one difficulty there is almost always ANOTHER difficulty of the SAME CONTENT just waiting for you to push through even more for even more randomized gear.

Proving grounds were not progression. They were a side activity.

Get your shit together and stop being butthurt because you attach negative connotations to an activity that you enjoy. You like grinding. Good for you. You're perfectly welcome to enjoy the grindiest part of WoW's history all you want ... just don't start throwing a fit when someone calls it what it is and refutes your bullshit claims. You can love something and defend it to the death and sometimes still be wrong. So, please, show some dignity and be wrong in peace instead of mocking other people when they call you out on your bullshit.

I'm not wrong just because I don't accept your absurd definition of "grind" where somehow it does not include an endless treadmill of scaling content with randomly generated gear and bars to fill up that have NO END and reward you less and less the more you do that. AP is not a grind, but... leveling is a grind??? What the hell kind of bizarre anti-logic is that? You are insane.

And now, since you're only interested in putting out inflammatory posts intended to cause fights, I'm going to lead by example and remove myself from this discussion, as well as permanently removing myself from discussing anything with you ever again by blocking you. I suggest you do the same, though I suspect you wont.

Baby took his ball home, oh no!

[munkeyinorbit]

I find the retail gameplay of "PULL IT ALL AND AOE IT AND NEVER, EVER DIE" to be far less engaging.

Then why are U still playing?

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First time in my life i've seen anyone be proud of doing proving grounds, that's a fucking yikes.

What's a fucking yikes is your poor attitude. Don't tell me, you "play" classic. Don't down talk so wine because of their proving grounds. Don't be that dick.

Personally I couldn't give a fuck about proving grounds, I did the min just to get them out the way but I do have a little bit of admiration for people who tested themselves. Not for me, but genuine Gratz dude.

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so slowly pulling a single mob one at a time else you die is more engaging? Neither of these scenarios are engaging.

Don't.

That guy hasn't worked out that all the maxmin and "aoeaoeaoe" comes from the private servers.

The retail population did classic just to see what if.

They are gone now, the classic pops are decimated and even though BWL is a 2 hour pug people r still leaving in drives.

AQ in August 2020. 6 months before bfa

[Mayia]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
[breath]
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaaaaaaaa. Yeah, okay. So, when I was farming felweave off mobs that shared spawns with other, worthless mobs, having to take flight paths and ride ground mounts, that wasn't insanely repetitive? Because I remember it being one of the most insanely repetitive grinds I've ever had in WoW -- especially when compared to modern WoW.

Of course, that's not even mentioning the raid loot grind, which was at the worst back in Vanilla. Want your tier set bonuses? Better hope your fellow raiders already have them, because they definitely have more DKP than you're ever going to have. Spoiler alert: They didn't have their set bonuses, which meant that I never once won a single piece of tier gear during Vanilla. That was a fun grind. Oh, and the resistance gear/Onyxia cloaks? Yeah, those weren't repetitive at all. /s

Oh, and what about PvP? If you want PvP gear, you have to run the same BG over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again... and hope that there aren't a lot of people putting in more effort than you are, because you're not guaranteed to get a rank just for grinding -- you have to grind more than everyone else. And if you want to get the max PvP rank? That's an amount of grinding so high that the only truly viable methods are to quit your job and stop sleeping... or have other people playing your account while you are at work/sleeping. Seriously, I'd say that the max PvP rank grind was the definition of "insanely repetitive," but, to be frank, "insanely repetitive" doesn't even come close.

Shit, even getting through the world was a grind. Riding ground mounts, taking flight paths, waiting for boats/zeppelins... god, it's like people are blind to all of the horrible aspects of this game.

Today's grinds? A rotation of World Quests that are different every day and that quickly become unnecessary. Raids with multiple difficulty levels so that you don't have to smash your face against bosses for hours on end if that's not what you're into. Mythic Plus dungeons with a rotating set of affixes that encourage a variety of strategies and allow for exciting innovations. Even the PvP grind is softened by a larger variety of content, whether it be battlegrounds, arenas, islands, or world PvP content.

I suppose you're probably talking about the Azerite and cloak grinds, though, right? Yeah, as someone who played WoW from Vanilla until MoP and then came back for a few tiers of BFA... the Azerite grind is nothing. Islands are extremely quick and easy. They're also actually kind of fun, due to how easy they are. I can't speak to the cloak, but it doesn't sound any worse than any other grind currently in the game... but it definitely sounds better than the grinds I remember from Vanilla.

You may very well be sick of BFA or modern WoW in general, and that is a perfectly valid way to feel, but you are 100% wrong when it comes to Vanilla/Classic grinds.

you seem very upset and not to understand how dkp systems tend to work, granded you could've been in a broken guild but dkp still works the same unless they didn't give you any for some reason.
Its the same "i totally suffered but here is a vague statement" is why blizzard forced personal loot on everyone, because 5 people had bad experiences and everyone else wanted to play a victim zzz.

Grinds are bad in both games, which is worse? i'd say they're much closer than you think.. but classic isn't too much more grindy or less than current.. it really depends what you are doing, AP/Mythic/world quests is grindy in a different way to winterspring sabers, which still exists in a nerfed state.

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Classic is actually a broken game. Might as well play BfA, if you like World of Warcraft.

Or play it for a while? Just to get it out of your system. That seems worked for many.

LOL BIAS butthurt opinion detected.
i wish classic would slow down abit.. need more time between content so angry people can chill out.

[msdos]

The Classic vs Retail is hilarious. It reminds me of Dark Souls vs Bloodbourne. The Bloodbourne crowd literally wouldn't even exist without Dark Souls, but they can't wait to tell you how superior everything about everything they do is. It's called lack of respect and lack of acknowledgement of the fundamentals.

Maybe you think everything in classic is boring and easy and bad and this and that, but until I see you do it yourself, you have no room to say anything. Like it's always the same; Retail defenders(?) hate hate hate, but can't get a toon to 60, can't rank up in pvp and can't get good loot or they refuse to do it and then fall back on an excuse, but that doesn't lend them any credibility, it's just a cop out. You can play retail, but can't play the vastly more simple version? That just makes you look even worse as a gamer in general.
I can succeed on retail and classic without making excuses and give objective opinions on both, because both are rather boring. Classic bores you to death with slowness and simplicity and Retail bores you to death with inconsequential, infinite, perpetual busy work, but I'm not gonna pretend either are more than they are and defend either one over the other.

[Mayia]

Hey Team,

Just starting Wow Classic now as I finally have the time again ,

Any advice for a good NA Pvp server I generally like pretty full busy servers even if there is queues or else the world feels too empty for me,

Now the game has been out for awhile I'm happy to play any role / class is there any feeling for what roles are more in demand tank/dps/healers

Thanks

Play the class you feel you'll enjoy honestly.. there are enough tanks/healers if you get a good guild and you dont wanna be stuck in a role you don't enjoy.

[Tronski]

Hey Team,

Just starting Wow Classic now as I finally have the time again ,

Any advice for a good NA Pvp server I generally like pretty full busy servers even if there is queues or else the world feels too empty for me,

Now the game has been out for awhile I'm happy to play any role / class is there any feeling for what roles are more in demand tank/dps/healers

Thanks

My two best advices are:

1, Don't listen to naysayers. Classic is a different game, don't compare it to retail. You like what you like.

2, Multibox. Having more accounts (RAF them) is fun and makes many aspects of the game easier. 2 or 5 doesn't matter.

[NineSpine]

Then why are U still playing?

I don’t.

Don't.

That guy hasn't worked out that all the maxmin and "aoeaoeaoe" comes from the private servers.

The retail population did classic just to see what if.

They are gone now, the classic pops are decimated and even though BWL is a 2 hour pug people r still leaving in drives.

AQ in August 2020. 6 months before bfa

Yes, people are leaving in droves, and that’s why theres still numerous high population servers.

[sanobrewww]

The Classic vs Retail is hilarious. It reminds me of Dark Souls vs Bloodbourne. The Bloodbourne crowd literally wouldn't even exist without Dark Souls, but they can't wait to tell you how superior everything about everything they do is. It's called lack of respect and lack of acknowledgement of the fundamentals.

Maybe you think everything in classic is boring and easy and bad and this and that, but until I see you do it yourself, you have no room to say anything. Like it's always the same; Retail defenders(?) hate hate hate, but can't get a toon to 60, can't rank up in pvp and can't get good loot or they refuse to do it and then fall back on an excuse, but that doesn't lend them any credibility, it's just a cop out. You can play retail, but can't play the vastly more simple version? That just makes you look even worse as a gamer in general.
I can succeed on retail and classic without making excuses and give objective opinions on both, because both are rather boring. Classic bores you to death with slowness and simplicity and Retail bores you to death with inconsequential, infinite, perpetual busy work, but I'm not gonna pretend either are more than they are and defend either one over the other.

At least there's something to do in retail XD
in classic you just go through the extremely boring leveling grind (which could actually be used as torture in some places like ngl)
and then you just grind the pre-raid bis (even though you don't need it at all), to start raidlogging the hilariously easy and slow raids, and that's literally it. there's nothing else. once you have the bis gear there is nothing to do.

[NineSpine]

At least there's something to do in retail XD
in classic you just go through the extremely boring leveling grind (which could actually be used as torture in some places like ngl)
and then you just grind the pre-raid bis (even though you don't need it at all), to start raidlogging the hilariously easy and slow raids, and that's literally it. there's nothing else. once you have the bis gear there is nothing to do.

There’s nothing to do besides level, do dungeons, raid, and work on reputations.

I just described retail and classic, but tell me more about raidlogging but I’ll be right back. I’ve gotta go run LFR and we all know how hardcore that is.

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At least there's something to do in retail XD
in classic you just go through the extremely boring leveling grind (which could actually be used as torture in some places like ngl)
and then you just grind the pre-raid bis (even though you don't need it at all), to start raidlogging the hilariously easy and slow raids, and that's literally it. there's nothing else. once you have the bis gear there is nothing to do.

In retail you level through an incredibly bland on-rails experience that doesn’t even let you move on from zones because you stay in the same zones as the leveling ones for the whole expansion and they scale with you so the leveling is meaningless.

Then you hit max level and in literally one or two days you could have run every dungeon and every raid.

[neik]

LOL BIAS butthurt opinion detected.
i wish classic would slow down abit.. need more time between content so angry people can chill out.

Projections, projections.

Don't use these words next time, or you risk exposing yourself again.

[DazManianDevil]

In retail you level through an incredibly bland on-rails experience that doesn’t even let you move on from zones because you stay in the same zones as the leveling ones for the whole expansion and they scale with you so the leveling is meaningless.

Then you hit max level and in literally one or two days you could have run every dungeon and every raid.

While I would agree this is all a very subjective feel, I'll give my hot take.
What are the End Game dungeons of Classic? Diremaul, BRD (maybe) Upper and Lowers, Strat live/undead and Scholo. If you can't run those within a day or two, I question something. (Let me know if I missed one, I only got as far as level 52 into Classic :3 )
Conversely, BFA has a dozen dungeons that are considered End Game content, due to their scaling, even when you discount Mythic scaling and several of them can't even be done until 120.

I personally prefer the raid structure of BFA. In BFA, you only run the previous tier for very specific trinkets for very specific specs, kind of like in MC to Classic.

However, there's no BiS Legendary bindings in Uldir to keep me going back there for garbage loot, which I personally like as visiting previous tiers holds 0 interest for me as it's antiqued content.
I can hardly bother myself to run Heroic Nyalotha, I personally would hate feeling obligated to run MC, Ony, ZG and BWL all in one week, even if they're easy and quick.
(This doesn't even include the world dragons, Kazzak, AQ20/40 or Naxx. Yikes)

Or to the idea of dungeons in Classic vs BFA. Let's say for sake of Hyperbole, my BiS mainhand is an Ironfoe from BRD.
(Gonna compare 2 rare mainhands for sake of comparison)
How many runs would it take to get that, realistically speaking? I've read it taking near 100 kills, and even with lava skips that's a tall order.

In M+, yeah I'd need a Bilecrawg tusk every season, but at least now it just has to drop, and is tradeable by several classes to circumvent personal loot.
Sure it could get a socket, which I can farm for now anyway so it's less of an issue, or Corrupt. Nice thing about corruption, you can mix/match gear. Fun stuff!

I tried to enjoy Classic, and for the time I played it, I did. That being said, I was an altaholic between 2006-2008 so I'm well aware of what Classic leveling more or less feels like.

It's a means to an end, having leveled in Vanilla and several other characters into mid TBC, I don't find that it's an immersive or adventuresome experience.
Hell even in BFA I've only capped 1 of 7 120s via zone questing. I leveled a Warlock from 110-120 strictly through Islands during the Uldir patch.
2 others I leveled via Dungeons, BGs and Timewalking. Quite the varied experience compared to my time in Classic, which realistically has far fewer efficient options for leveling paths.

As for on-rails, I don't personally mind much. The zones even culminate in doing that zone's dungeon as a small climax to your efforts, which reminds me of Westfall more or less ending in the Dead Mines and slaying Vanqueef. (Which as a side note, god I miss Old Smite. I play Classic every now and again just for Deadmines <3 )

In closing, I respect that you've been able to stick to your guns during this thread, many would have quit over the bickering. Best of luck to you in all your future travels.
/Cheers!

[Trend]

BfA is a black hole. A void of nothing.
No community.
Can (and will) be played solo and without ever saying a word.

Classic is the one and only good MMORPG of the market.

Facts

LMAO Classic is so fucking easy you definitely don't need to talk to anyone ever unless you're in one of the better raid guilds (more because of social convention than actual necessity) or do organized PvP. In BfA you can't do much of the real endgame without talking to people ... raids, mythic+ and pvp. But grats, you did a WQ and picked a flower without a group ... you beat the game without talking to anyone.

Not sure why I'm even responding to you since you're just a nonsense troll about all things BfA but what you say is so absurd I can't help myself.

[lukkoth]

Hey Team,

Just starting Wow Classic now as I finally have the time again,

Any advice for a good NA Pvp server I generally like pretty full busy servers even if there is queues or else the world feels too empty for me,

Now the game has been out for awhile I'm happy to play any role/class is there any feeling for what roles are more in demand tank/DPS/healers

Thanks

Seeing a lot of extremely unhelpful comments coming your way. Ultimately, if you wanna play classic, play it. It's time-consuming in its own way, the same as BFA is.

If you want to be in demand, tanks and healers are the top picks, especially tanks. Good DPS isn't as hard to come by but still valuable (fury warrior, rogue, warlock, mage). You're rolling a healer, do yourself a favor and if you're alliance, go Dwarf. It'll help. If you're going to play horde, you're going to be waiting a really long fucking time to get into BGs due to imbalance. If you pick alliance, you're going to have instant queues, but typically fewer wins per hour or no wins at all in AV. It depends on what's important to you.

Pick a high pop server, Faerline, Whitemane, Herod, Fairbanks, etc.

Leveling zones are always populated. A lot of people are dungeon grinding, but you should have no problem finding a questing group, dungeon group, or elite group wherever you go on a high pop server.

[NineSpine]

LMAO Classic is so fucking easy you definitely don't need to talk to anyone ever unless you're in one of the better raid guilds (more because of social convention than actual necessity) or do organized PvP. In BfA you can't do much of the real endgame without talking to people ... raids, mythic+ and pvp. But grats, you did a WQ and picked a flower without a group ... you beat the game without talking to anyone.

Not sure why I'm even responding to you since you're just a nonsense troll about all things BfA but what you say is so absurd I can't help myself.

Since every piece of content in retail has an easy mode, you can also run all of the content in retail without talking to anyone. Increased difficulty versions of content you already completed isn’t “content” at all; it’s a trick, a scam.

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While I would agree this is all a very subjective feel, I'll give my hot take.
What are the End Game dungeons of Classic? Diremaul, BRD (maybe) Upper and Lowers, Strat live/undead and Scholo. If you can't run those within a day or two, I question something. (Let me know if I missed one, I only got as far as level 52 into Classic :3 )
Conversely, BFA has a dozen dungeons that are considered End Game content, due to their scaling, even when you discount Mythic scaling and several of them can't even be done until 120.

Dire Maul is three dungeons.
BRD is absolutely huge.
You missed Sunken Temple, although that one is arguable.

The collective size of those dungeons easily rivals BFA.

Classic also has ~20 leveling dungeons, and I don't think its fair to ignore those, especially considering that BFA allows you to skip leveling up to the expansion entirely, and if you choose to level it rockets you through leveling so fast that the dungeons don't really matter.

I personally prefer the raid structure of BFA. In BFA, you only run the previous tier for very specific trinkets for very specific specs, kind of like in MC to Classic.

However, there's no BiS Legendary bindings in Uldir to keep me going back there for garbage loot, which I personally like as visiting previous tiers holds 0 interest for me as it's antiqued content.
I can hardly bother myself to run Heroic Nyalotha, I personally would hate feeling obligated to run MC, Ony, ZG and BWL all in one week, even if they're easy and quick.
(This doesn't even include the world dragons, Kazzak, AQ20/40 or Naxx. Yikes)

The argument you just made is that wow classic has too much relevant raid content. That's a very weird argument to me.

Or to the idea of dungeons in Classic vs BFA. Let's say for sake of Hyperbole, my BiS mainhand is an Ironfoe from BRD.
(Gonna compare 2 rare mainhands for sake of comparison)
How many runs would it take to get that, realistically speaking? I've read it taking near 100 kills, and even with lava skips that's a tall order.

It's a mistake to approach classic saying "I need the best in slot". There are plenty of sufficient, relevant weapons you can get, and since there is no endlessly scaling content and difficulty tiers, the notion of needing "the best" to progress just doesn't match the reality of the game. Also, the existence of extremely rare gear is a plus in my book.

In M+, yeah I'd need a Bilecrawg tusk every season, but at least now it just has to drop, and is tradeable by several classes to circumvent personal loot.
Sure it could get a socket, which I can farm for now anyway so it's less of an issue, or Corrupt. Nice thing about corruption, you can mix/match gear. Fun stuff!

M+ is the dullest activity ever added to the game in my opinion, so any point that hinges on it loses me quickly.

I tried to enjoy Classic, and for the time I played it, I did. That being said, I was an altaholic between 2006-2008 so I'm well aware of what Classic leveling more or less feels like.

It's a means to an end, having leveled in Vanilla and several other characters into mid TBC, I don't find that it's an immersive or adventuresome experience.
Hell even in BFA I've only capped 1 of 7 120s via zone questing. I leveled a Warlock from 110-120 strictly through Islands during the Uldir patch.
2 others I leveled via Dungeons, BGs and Timewalking. Quite the varied experience compared to my time in Classic, which realistically has far fewer efficient options for leveling paths.

I just disagree. I find everything you described horribly dull. Leveling via timewalking in particular sounds dreadful. I want to go out and work my way through the world, not get funneled into, once again, endlessly scaling content.

As for on-rails, I don't personally mind much. The zones even culminate in doing that zone's dungeon as a small climax to your efforts, which reminds me of Westfall more or less ending in the Dead Mines and slaying Vanqueef. (Which as a side note, god I miss Old Smite. I play Classic every now and again just for Deadmines <3 )

On one hand, I love in Classic when the quests culminate in a big final thing, like a dungeon. That's fun. On the other hand, retail has swung too far. The quests feel like such a ridiculous grind that I'm being shepherded through, rather than classic where I feel like I have genuine, meaningful choices about where to go and what to do. Traveling across the world feels meaningful, there is an investment to it. I actually need to think about where I am going and why I am going there, planning out my paths.

In closing, I respect that you've been able to stick to your guns during this thread, many would have quit over the bickering. Best of luck to you in all your future travels.
/Cheers!

I appreciate your criticisms of classic, and I don't think that they are without merit. Classic is not a perfect game and I think that a significantly better game could be made if the same design principles were polished and carried forward. Unfortunately, that's not what Blizzard has chosen to do. Instead, they've chosen a very treadmill approach, with all the scaling and difficulty levels. I think that these are objectively bad design decisions, not because Classic got it perfect, but because they've sucked all sense of wonder out of the game.

I have zero desire to run a dungeon or a raid that I already stomped on an easy mode difficulty. It really spoils the fun, sucks me right out of the game, and makes the seams in the world stick out. I'm glad Blizzard has stuck to their guns fixing their biggest mistake (flying) by restricting it at the beginning of expansions. I wish they would take that logic farther and stop trying to design the game in such a way that every single piece of content is meant to be repeated ad nauseum as it scales with you. It's an RPG. I want to grow more powerful, not have the world grow more powerful with me.

[Highelf]

LMAO Classic is so fucking easy you definitely don't need to talk to anyone ever unless you're in one of the better raid guilds (more because of social convention than actual necessity) or do organized PvP. In BfA you can't do much of the real endgame without talking to people ... raids, mythic+ and pvp. But grats, you did a WQ and picked a flower without a group ... you beat the game without talking to anyone.

Not sure why I'm even responding to you since you're just a nonsense troll about all things BfA but what you say is so absurd I can't help myself.

You just mentioned the same things for both Classic and Retail.