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  1. #181
    OP is right. Convenants are shit if they make them like in announcement.
    Last edited by TOM_RUS; 2020-03-06 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Abilities that are before balance passes and insofar as our information, prior to Beta or even Alpha iteration. Again, I'll wait for the playable Beta to make a firmer determination - trying to pass judgment on them now is jumping at shadows. By all means point out the issue with BiS issues and so forth, but it's highly unlikely they'll remain the same as the pre-Alpha information we were made privy to. As for them being punishing to switch, I'm actually okay with that - I like the idea of having to make semi-permanent and impactful choices when it comes to gameplay and story elements. Adds variety to alt play, and makes said choices more meaningful. Puts me in mind of the old Aldor/Scryer choice back in TBC, which was also an impactful one when it came to the expansion story.
    Every alpha / beta / ptr cycle people ALWAYS make the same argument as you just did now that it's "just alpha / beta / ptr" and that we should wait to see the final product and every and I mean EVERY time it invariably ends up being shit. It's time to face that if something is shit on paper, it's going to be even more shit in practice. Tuning or not.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Every alpha / beta / ptr cycle people ALWAYS make the same argument as you just did now that it's "just alpha / beta / ptr" and that we should wait to see the final product and every and I mean EVERY time it invariably ends up being shit. It's time to face that if something is shit on paper, it's going to be even more shit in practice. Tuning or not.
    I find that argument to be a key example of the slippery slope fallacy, and it ignores that while there have been occasions where Alpha/Beta testing still let a flawed system be implemented (e.g. Azerite Traits), there are other cases where iteration improved a system (e.g. Artifact weapons in Legion) or saw it dismantled entirely (e.g. Path of the Titans in Cata). Alpha/Beta is where we see the more or less "final product" for such systems, just like we saw in BfA - and while it was unfortunate the system wasn't improved or iterated on in the Beta, the important fact is that the knowledge of the system's flaws was visible and explored in the Beta and not the final product, as it were.

    It's also true that whether or not something is "shit" tends to be a highly subjective determination - even Azerite traits have their devotees, although I think they're a minority of the playerbase. Artifact weapons were largely popular in Legion, but there was still a vocal minority who disliked them.
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    I don't think Method is a good example here, because they always keep several classes up to speed in case a class gets nerfed or buffed.
    Allow me to clarify, they are prepping several of the same class per PERSON. They are doing this to not lose time during the world first race when Blizzard inevitably nerfs/buffs certain covenants (see: corruption).

    For the average player, this means we are going to have to eat the high respec cost. We don’t know whether that will be just a high amount of gold, or some time-gated or non-time hated resource. Either way it will be a disaster for the competitive community.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I find that argument to be a key example of the slippery slope fallacy, and it ignores that while there have been occasions where Alpha/Beta testing still let a flawed system be implemented (e.g. Azerite Traits), there are other cases where iteration improved a system (e.g. Artifact weapons in Legion) or saw it dismantled entirely (e.g. Path of the Titans in Cata). Alpha/Beta is where we see the more or less "final product" for such systems, just like we saw in BfA - and while it was unfortunate the system wasn't improved or iterated on in the Beta, the important fact is that the knowledge of the system's flaws was visible and explored in the Beta and not the final product, as it were.

    It's also true that whether or not something is "shit" tends to be a highly subjective determination - even Azerite traits have their devotees, although I think they're a minority of the playerbase. Artifact weapons were largely popular in Legion, but there was still a vocal minority who disliked them.
    weren't Azerite traits only added late in the Beta? so they couldn't get the proper feedback?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    weren't Azerite traits only added late in the Beta? so they couldn't get the proper feedback?
    The later (and most important) fourth and fifth ring traits, yes. But the system itself as well as three-ring gear was available early on, more or less. The main issue with Azerite Traits wasn't statistical inasmuch as it was the fact that Azerite Traits were boring as compared to the Artifact system in Legion. Some of the end-game traits were out of whack, of course; but most of those were fixed when Uldir gear came available and entered play. The system remained boring, though; which is why the Essence system was tacked on in 8.2 to give it an active ability and more impactful passives than the traits alone provided.
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    weren't Azerite traits only added late in the Beta? so they couldn't get the proper feedback?
    Yes, and there was a huge imbalance between the best traits and the rest. Most specs still have a clear BiS but Blizz just started putting those BiS traits on most gear.

    I have zero faith in covenants being balanced in 9.0 but they might be by 9.3!

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Unless they've done a complete 180 on Covenant design since the reveal(lol nope). Then they will be the Azerite of Shadowlands.

    We all know Blizzard is absolutely awful at balancing. Locking player power behind a choice that should be for cosmetic and story purposes is absolutely moronic.

    There will be a BEST Covenant ability for your spec/class. It will be the best by a long margin. There will also be an absolute worst.

    Then - nerfs and buffs will happen and the pendulum will swing again. But Blizzard has already said they're going to make it extremely hard to switch Covenants.

    Why can't these morons open their eyes?
    "By a long margin." - By like 2% and it'll only make any difference for those of us at the very top end. Woo. Tryhards will still say everything else is complete shit and feel all smug while pretending it matters.
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    "By a long margin." - By like 2% and it'll only make any difference for those of us at the very top end. Woo. Tryhards will still say everything else is complete shit and feel all smug while pretending it matters.
    What was the difference between the best Azerite trait in 8.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was ~12-18%.

    What was the difference between the best legendary in 7.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was about 20%.

    These aren't tryhard-only mechanics and they're not minuscule, your class/spec is tuned around playing optimally.

  10. #190
    I mean, get the cosmetics you want first - then just switch to the numerically best one for you if it bothers you. Easy

  11. #191
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    Okay buddy.

  12. #192
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    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    So that I need to reroll after every single balancing change? No thanks
    No so you can pick what you think is best/most fun and don't give it any afterthought

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The later (and most important) fourth and fifth ring traits, yes. But the system itself as well as three-ring gear was available early on, more or less. The main issue with Azerite Traits wasn't statistical inasmuch as it was the fact that Azerite Traits were boring as compared to the Artifact system in Legion. Some of the end-game traits were out of whack, of course; but most of those were fixed when Uldir gear came available and entered play. The system remained boring, though; which is why the Essence system was tacked on in 8.2 to give it an active ability and more impactful passives than the traits alone provided.
    well they hopefully will have a significantly longer beta for Shadowlands than they had for BfA (3.5 months) so that should help with feedback

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dreamdaddy View Post
    Yes, and there was a huge imbalance between the best traits and the rest. Most specs still have a clear BiS but Blizz just started putting those BiS traits on most gear.

    I have zero faith in covenants being balanced in 9.0 but they might be by 9.3!
    that's the thing, can they change them that much? they don't want people re-rolling Covenants

  14. #194
    There is always the best class, spec, talents and people still play what they like.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Exactly. And the same people who are shrieking in horror that something might sim 1% higher are, ironically, also the first to complain about anything they decide is "homogenization", and the first to tell you "WoW isn't an RPG any more!".

    - - - Updated - - -



    Imagine believing that a covenant is going to give you a 20% DPS advantage. You'll be lucky if it's 2%. 20% is absolutely wild, outrageous fantasy.
    if it has only near the numbers of 1 "good" corruption effect it will be more than 20% on some classes, i wont complain untill isee the numbers tho, but it can lead to a raid split aoe/st builds and beching on progress in my case.

    for example:

    we used 4x focusing iris on our mythic azshara progress and first kill, now imagine it beein locked behind the covenants... then you would have to specialize 4 people and leave them out in pure st dps checks, and then you have M+ ..
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-03-06 at 03:36 PM.
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  16. #196
    As long as they allow us to remove the socket items and we don't have to infinitely grind for new ones to replace the old ones like the nether light crucible all will be fine, if they make it grindy like it is now with an extra system it will hurt the game even more. they need to move away from this mobile reward system model they have been pushing, it is not good for the longevity of the game, less gear rewards makes it feel MORE rewarding when you get something good, the design they have now actually makes people burn out more and even devalues crafting professions as gear those professions make are easily replaced from world quests a couple of months into an expansion. That is just part of many issues but the most obvious ones.
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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    if it has only near the numbers of 1 "good" corruption effect it will be more than 20% on some classes, i wont complain untill isee the numbers tho, but it can lead to a raid split aoe/st builds and beching on progress in my case.

    for example:

    we used 4x focusing iris on our mythic azshara progress and first kill, now imagine it beein locked behind the covenants...
    I'm not sure how to tell you this, but trinkets and optional class abilities are different things.

    When they start locking raid loot behind covenants this complaint will make sense.

    Respect for waiting for numbers though!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    that's the thing, can they change them that much? they don't want people re-rolling Covenants
    If they do change covenant abilities which are OP or underpowered, then people will change covenants.

    If they don't, the same thing will happen.

    Therefore logically they should change them. To achieve balance as best they can because people will change covenants either way.

  18. #198
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    Everything is subject to change, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about this entire system.

    The ability is bound to have a significant effect on your performance in your chosen role. This wouldn't be too bad, if they weren't planning on switching Covenants being a big investment, or if the balance between each one was within a margin that only matters to the abolute biggest of min-maxers.

    I don't think the comparison to Azerite is fair. Azerite was still tied to gear, even if the balance between traits was so awful that a high item level piece could be trash vs a basic emissary reward depending on your spec and what traits each one has. As bad as it was, it was still a matter of gear: get gear with better traits. For that you just had to bash your head against whatever awarded gear with the traits you wanted. Covenants aren't like that at all. They're, as far as we know, entirely separate from gear, and your choice of Covenant is intended to be semi-permanent (as said above, they plan on switching Covenants being a big investment).

    I'm not going to jump on a Blizzard hate train like most people like to do for almost any reason, but I don't really trust them to balance the Covenant bonuses at all.

    Maybe it's not as exciting but I absolutely feel like all Covenant bonuses should be utility oriented. Make them all clones of each other with different names and visual effects if you must really have them affect performance in a significant way.
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  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamdaddy View Post
    What was the difference between the best Azerite trait in 8.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was ~12-18%.

    What was the difference between the best legendary in 7.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was about 20%.

    These aren't tryhard-only mechanics and they're not minuscule, your class/spec is tuned around playing optimally.
    Outlier. For the most part balance is pretty great and the difference between the best and second / third / fourth / etc is quite small. So yeah for the most part it's a tryhard only issue unless you're at the very top end. Comparing best to worst is a little disingenuous, and also dealing purely in percentages - 20% of a nominal amount of still a nominal amount.
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Man, am I tired of that "only the top 100" bullshit meme of people that get carried by their raid groups or don't participate in group content at all..

    There is essentially 2 ways this can go, either the abilities will get neutered to the point where it doesn't matter in the background noise of the covenant passives, which is pretty much the situation we currently have where the 3rd tacked on system overshadows all others ingame up until this point of the expansion. Or they will break the game and cripple you in parts of the game outside of the niche you've choosen (so far it seems ST, AOE, PvP, generic buff from the 2 classes we've seen).


    Either way, the parallels to the beginning of azerite armor are quite apparent and frankly I expect them to repeat the same mistakes; beause Blizzard. Pretty much the same sledgehammer tweaking Blizzard did up until now with Azerite traits. I mean just imagine the essence system without the chance to actually change the primary essence on the fly. By 9.3 we will probably have some passives from the Arbiter that will deal 30% of our damage.

    Btw, I will pick the faction based on style/story myself, but I've also given up on pretty much any content outside of casual IDGAF-grouping - I just know that my take on this is not one from the perspective of good design - and just unsub when Blizzard inadvertedly fucks this up again :P.

    Edit: This shit pretty much started with Legion when originally they'd expect you to only have 1 weapon skilled, which is a horrible and shit idea. In BfA they tried to lock you into traits by making respeccing of Azerite ludicrously expensive, taking all the fun out of the modular system since you couldn't experiment with it. That they still haven't given up on this forced lock-in bullshit in the third attempt is quite frankly just baffling to me.
    Nothing Blizzard does will make you happy. You could open up MMO-C to a personalized letter addressed to you from J Allen Brack himself letting you know he read your feedback and he's instructed the team to design the game around your individual desires and you'd still have some petty cynical take on the outlook of the expansion. You aren't looking for Blizzard to change anything, you just want validation of your incredibly original opinion that everything Blizzard does sucks ass and will continue to suck ass until the end of time "because reasons."

    As an aside, I really don't understand the point of holding an opinion like this. Do you really value meaningless internet high fives over constructive criticism?

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