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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    What is your perception of how long it would take you (time /played) to get to the point you could raid at the level you wanted to raid or run the keys you wanted to run? What level of raiding are you talking about? What level of keys are you talking about?

    My guildmate boosted a priest and 2 calendar days (and about 8 hours /played) later we almost timed a 15 with him healing. Given that people tend to want to complain and they make shit up to justify their complaining ... and given that what you are saying is demonstratively false, my perception is that you have no intention of being honest. Unless you're going to quit immediately after running your first key, you're not going to spend as much time catching up as you will take playing the endgame. It won't even be close. To claim otherwise is absurd.
    It's gonna take a month or so to get essences. It's going to take longer to get cloak caught up.

    I also don't have guildies carrying me through things so it takes waaay longer to do all the quests than it would working with guilds. I did 6 islands yesterday for the weekly, it was some of the worst gameplay I have seen in a game ever. When I was done I logged off in disgust.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's gonna take a month or so to get essences. It's going to take longer to get cloak caught up.

    I also don't have guildies carrying me through things so it takes waaay longer to do all the quests than it would working with guilds. I did 6 islands yesterday for the weekly, it was some of the worst gameplay I have seen in a game ever. When I was done I logged off in disgust.
    So you can't answer very specific and straight-forward questions. Exactly as expected. Good luck doing whatever you do that is not WoW!

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    So you can't answer very specific and straight-forward questions. Exactly as expected. Good luck doing whatever you do that is not WoW!
    I don't know how long... I haven't done it. All I know is I'm stuck in bullshit for a while... I told you what I do know but I don't sit there and research the whole game before I play it... hard to see other people's perspectives, huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I don't know how long... I haven't done it. All I know is I'm stuck in bullshit for a while... I told you what I do know but I don't sit there and research the whole game before I play it... hard to see other people's perspectives, huh?
    So you don't know what level you want to raid at ... maybe LFG maybe cutting edge Mythic. And keys, maybe you're looking to do +2 and maybe +20. You know enough to know you want to do these things, but you have no idea what level. And you know it is going to take longer to get prepared than you will spend playing endgame, but you can't even give a clue of what your perception is of how much time /played that actually is.

    I have no problem empathizing with people who aren't just bullshitting and evading.

    Regardless, you don't play WoW and I don't care. Peace to you and have fun not playing WoW.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    So you don't know what level you want to raid at
    Where did I say that? To answer your question... heroic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    And keys, maybe you're looking to do +2 and maybe +20.
    I'd like to do a +15.

    Anyway, you keep ending every post by saying goodbye and that I'm not worth it... then you respond. Lol.

    My point remains, there's too much crap to do before the excellent dungeon and raid content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  6. #326
    High Overlord LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Where did I say that? To answer your question... heroic.




    I'd like to do a +15.

    Anyway, you keep ending every post by saying goodbye and that I'm not worth it... then you respond. Lol.

    My point remains, there's too much crap to do before the excellent dungeon and raid content.
    It is a perception problem though.
    you don't need the neck instantly at 80 to raid/m+, you don't need rank 3 essences for everything for that, rank 2 is fine, your cape doesn't need to be lvl 15 or whatever already etc.

    If everyone could instantly catch up from scratch in a week or two and have everything above mentioned that would piss people off that played continuosly.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    It is a perception problem though.
    you don't need the neck instantly at 80 to raid/m+, you don't need rank 3 essences for everything for that, rank 2 is fine, your cape doesn't need to be lvl 15 or whatever already etc.

    If everyone could instantly catch up from scratch in a week or two and have everything above mentioned that would piss people off that played continuosly.
    He doesn't need any essence at all. Or absolutely completely random ones he got by accident.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    It is a perception problem though.
    you don't need the neck instantly at 80 to raid/m+, you don't need rank 3 essences for everything for that, rank 2 is fine, your cape doesn't need to be lvl 15 or whatever already etc.

    If everyone could instantly catch up from scratch in a week or two and have everything above mentioned that would piss people off that played continuosly.
    That's the part I don't understand.

    If you play continuously, you're always going to be on the cutting edge content and the game is generally going to be better. Why is it that you feel that people who join later have to pay a penance for being unsubbed? What harm does it do to you if there's catch up for essences for people who just resubbed? I didn't play in 8.2, I don't get the payoff you got for doing the essence grind. But I still have to do it in 8.3.

    To me it's mind boggling that people think they should design a game that's purposefully not fun for a period of time when you start playing it, as like a punishment or something. I get why blizz does it - they want the profits - but I don't understand why people who play the game want it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Looks like your trying to justify "being forced" to grind your neck.
    Sorry that you apparently have zero idea how OCD works, even after it was explained. I'm not going to repeat myself because you want to take a random comment in the middle of a conversation, so go back and read and don't reply to me again, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I have to ask... is this just the new norm? Is wow doomed to have wacky random items obtained from excessive grinding from now on?
    Want a Blizzard-level response?

    Officially: No.
    Also Officially: Yes.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Sorry that you apparently have zero idea how OCD works, even after it was explained. I'm not going to repeat myself because you want to take a random comment in the middle of a conversation, so go back and read and don't reply to me again, thanks.
    It's not ocd. People have a natural desire to get better at things. The way wow is set up right now, the best way to get better at things is often doing random stupid easy content. The alternative is to do harder, more interesting content for worse rewards. It's a shitty choice. No one wants to be the guy who is underperforming.

    In legion I held out for a long ass time. I did mythic+ because I liked it and they said, do what you like, legendaries will come. I was behind on ap, and I had to watch as my guildies who did world quests (but didn't play any more time than I did) all had 2-3X as many legendaries as I did, and their ap was much higher too.

    Eventually you end up so far behind that you give in and start grinding the bullshit and suddenly your gear starts improving much more quickly. Just a bizarre situation that's very frustrating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's not ocd. People have a natural desire to get better at things. The way wow is set up right now, the best way to get better at things is often doing random stupid easy content. The alternative is to do harder, more interesting content for worse rewards. It's a shitty choice. No one wants to be the guy who is underperforming.

    In legion I held out for a long ass time. I did mythic+ because I liked it and they said, do what you like, legendaries will come. I was behind on ap, and I had to watch as my guildies who did world quests (but didn't play any more time than I did) all had 2-3X as many legendaries as I did, and their ap was much higher too.

    Eventually you end up so far behind that you give in and start grinding the bullshit and suddenly your gear starts improving much more quickly. Just a bizarre situation that's very frustrating.
    It is much much easier now than it was in legion. With both AP and essences. They are really not hard not tedious to get as other people claim it to be. And reaching your goals can be done in 2 weeks or even faster if you grind M+ (because ultimately gear is what makes you strong).

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    So you don't know what level you want to raid at ... maybe LFG maybe cutting edge Mythic. And keys, maybe you're looking to do +2 and maybe +20. You know enough to know you want to do these things, but you have no idea what level. And you know it is going to take longer to get prepared than you will spend playing endgame, but you can't even give a clue of what your perception is of how much time /played that actually is.

    I have no problem empathizing with people who aren't just bullshitting and evading.

    Regardless, you don't play WoW and I don't care. Peace to you and have fun not playing WoW.
    I don't see why slowly feeling out difficulties rather then just mindlessly grinding out challengless content is the wrong way to go about it...?

    How is his experience made better with the grinds?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is much much easier now than it was in legion. With both AP and essences. They are really not hard not tedious to get as other people claim it to be. And reaching your goals can be done in 2 weeks or even faster if you grind M+ (because ultimately gear is what makes you strong).
    Depends on class. Some require the time locked ones that take 3-4 weeks to get depending on your skill. Hopefully the change in Tuesday helps with that.

  14. #334
    High Overlord LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    That's the part I don't understand.

    If you play continuously, you're always going to be on the cutting edge content and the game is generally going to be better. Why is it that you feel that people who join later have to pay a penance for being unsubbed? What harm does it do to you if there's catch up for essences for people who just resubbed? I didn't play in 8.2, I don't get the payoff you got for doing the essence grind. But I still have to do it in 8.3.

    To me it's mind boggling that people think they should design a game that's purposefully not fun for a period of time when you start playing it, as like a punishment or something. I get why blizz does it - they want the profits - but I don't understand why people who play the game want it.
    It's not about punishment, it's about current players not getting apathetic with the giant catch up that is already there.
    Azerite power is a good example, you need 30% less every week so basically your ap grinds worth halves every 2 weeks, for me that was a big reason to not grind much ap at all.

    Same goes albeit not as much for corruption (patched to get easier via visions) essences (patched to get easier) and the legendary cape.
    The reason for the massive catch up systems in place is pretty much the fact that the grinds are endless (no end to your neck and cape really) and that makes some players like me apathetic to play at all ala: why should i? my efforts diminish by half every 2 weeks.

    Let's all just hope there isn't any endless grind in SL.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I don't see why slowly feeling out difficulties rather then just mindlessly grinding out challengless content is the wrong way to go about it...?

    How is his experience made better with the grinds?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Depends on class. Some require the time locked ones that take 3-4 weeks to get depending on your skill. Hopefully the change in Tuesday helps with that.
    Right. And those aren't necessary.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    It's not about punishment, it's about current players not getting apathetic with the giant catch up that is already there.
    Azerite power is a good example, you need 30% less every week so basically your ap grinds worth halves every 2 weeks, for me that was a big reason to not grind much ap at all.

    Same goes albeit not as much for corruption (patched to get easier via visions) essences (patched to get easier) and the legendary cape.
    The reason for the massive catch up systems in place is pretty much the fact that the grinds are endless (no end to your neck and cape really) and that makes some players like me apathetic to play at all ala: why should i? my efforts diminish by half every 2 weeks.

    Let's all just hope there isn't any endless grind in SL.
    Essences have not gotten easier to my knowledge. There's no reason the essences grind should still exist in 8.3 for new characters. It's a pain and it keeps people from resubbing when they hear that they have to go complete the grind from 8.2 That's my real gripe at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  17. #337
    I just tried retail after a long ass break and I don't even know where to begin gearing a new char...

    If I have to do all the war effort quests for a new character I don't think I'll even continue playing retail lmao.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    but I don't understand why people who play the game want it.
    I didn't play Classic for ~2 months and BWL came out in the meantime, logged in, my gear was still relatively decent and equivalent rewards were not awarded by rather trivial content.
    On top of that, i didn't have to go through the same content that now suddenly award superior loot.


    In regards to essences however...i feel a big issue is that they're tied to active abilities and what i call "power customization".
    In previous expansions, you could (relatively) easily customize the power of your character for a given situation, change talents, glyphs, etc.. you get the idea.
    All those "customization" options were unlocked right off the bat once you were max level (or easily obtainable, such as glyphs).

    Now, the customization is locked behind grinds, so in order to have every option, you need to grind, just to be "on par" with anyone else.
    In Wotlk / Cata / MoP, you could just buy the glyphs off the auction house and were set, you didn't have to grind Faction X or Y in order to unlock a certain glyph on every character.

    On top of that, grinding for a R3 Essence just to use the minor power to gain additional stats or some random damage proc, isn't exciting as well.

    The same can also be said about Azerite and Corruption, you need luck or the willingness to engage in a given daily / weekly again and again in order to unlock additional customization options for your power.

    I think there is some value in attempting to preserve the accomplishment of players and not just trivialise that with each patch, but i'm not sure if (rental) power systems that tie in with character customization are the right path here.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-03-17 at 06:46 PM.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I didn't play Classic for ~2 months and BWL came out in the meantime, logged in, my gear was still relatively decent and equivalent rewards were not awarded by rather trivial content.
    On top of that, i didn't have to go through the same content that now suddenly award superior loot.


    In regards to essences however...i feel a big issue is that they're tied to active abilities and what i call "power customization".
    In previous expansions, you could (relatively) easily customize the power of your character for a given situation, change talents, glyphs, etc.. you get the idea.
    All those "customization" options were unlocked right off the bat once you were max level (or easily obtainable, such as glyphs).

    Now, the customization is locked behind grinds, so in order to have every option, you need to grind, just to be "on par" with anyone else.
    In Wotlk / Cata / MoP, you could just buy the glyphs off the auction house and were set, you didn't have to grind Faction X or Y in order to unlock a certain glyph on every character.

    On top of that, grinding for a R3 Essence just to use the minor power to gain additional stats or some random damage proc, isn't exciting as well.

    The same can also be said about Azerite and Corruption, you need luck or the willingness to engage in a given daily / weekly again and again in order to unlock additional customization options for your power.

    I think there is some value in attempting to preserve the accomplishment of players and not just trivialise that with each patch, but i'm not sure if (rental) power systems that tie in with character customization are the right path here.
    you have forums playerbase to blame for

    only them not blizzard

    its forums who have been complaining for over 10 years how they lack "content"

    instead specify that by content they mean more dungeons and more raids more often.

    here you go - you got content to do.

    just not stuff people wanted

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you have forums playerbase to blame for
    No, that is stupid.

    Blizzard is the one at the wheel, not the players.
    Leaving aside that Blizzard isn't exactly a company that is recognized for putting a lot of value on player feedback.

    That aside, even reasonable player demands can be screwed up if the execution is just botched.
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    instead specify that by content they mean more dungeons and more raids more often.
    Mixing a faustian twist into your game design is generally a terrible idea, for obvious reasons.

    This forum noise is nothing but sound and fury at the end of the day, what matters is what goes into the game.
    What goes on in the forum is something that needs to be decided case by case, rather than just "people are complaining about something, they must be correct!", one needs to look at whether these complaints are justified (because sometimes, they are, unlike what some contrarians attempt to tell people).
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-03-18 at 01:07 AM.

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