Are the infinite power grind here to stay?

[Aliven]

The past does not predict the future. Why be pointlessly cynical about Blizzard's approach to game design? Are you really so bitter that you need to validate your very original opinion that Blizzard hates its players and only does (or doesn't) do anything is because fuck you?

My opinion is that blizzard will do anything to stretch game time and gate the fuck out of anything as there is no tomorrow and will double down on every infinite grind possible. Because thats what they do now.
They have valid reason to do that, it works, exploiting player base and inhumane design really, really work.

[thilicen]

no, they specificly said that wont be a thing in shadowlands, so nah its not here to stay.

also titanforging and corruption are not going to be in shadowlands, so again no.

I hope to God that's true. Though I would take titanforging back in a heartbeat if it meant corruption going away early.

[Relapses]

My opinion is that blizzard will do anything to stretch game time and gate the fuck out of anything as there is no tomorrow and will double down on every infinite grind possible. Because thats what they do now.
They have valid reason to do that, it works, exploiting player base and inhumane design really, really work.

Except, y'know, they went out of their way to let us know that the "big infinite grind" (AP) that's been around for the last two expansions is going away in SL. You can be dismissive and say that this game design is "exploitative" but it's a fucking MMO. Time gates have existed since well before WoW existed. Would you chastise Riot games for having a cash shop to buy skins in League of Legends? Then why give Blizzard shit for something that is inherently part of the game design (and has been since its launch)?

It's understandable to feel like the game is far too systems-driven in its current state but when the developers are actively saying, "Hey, we heard you so we're changing it," it seems unnecessarily contemptuous to pretend like the developers are ignoring feedback.

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Though I would take titanforging back in a heartbeat if it meant corruption going away early.

Corrupted gear is definitely not going anywhere before SL. And Titanforging is 100% dead.

[Onikaroshi]

It really wasn't the same. Badges only went out of control during sunwell in tbc. The first wave of gear was usually worse then blue dungeon gear in most cases less you needed fire resist.

They had good gear (not the best gear, but good) from badges in Wrath, also the only place to get epic Relics. And in cata some of the tier gear came from badges.

[Aliven]

Except, y'know, they went out of their way to let us know that the "big infinite grind" (AP) that's been around for the last two expansions is going away in SL. You can be dismissive and say that this game design is "exploitative" but it's a fucking MMO. Time gates have existed since well before WoW existed. Would you chastise Riot games for having a cash shop to buy skins in League of Legends? Then why give Blizzard shit for something that is inherently part of the game design (and has been since its launch)?

It's understandable to feel like the game is far too systems-driven in its current state but when the developers are actively saying, "Hey, we heard you so we're changing it," it seems unnecessarily contemptuous to pretend like the developers are ignoring feedback.

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Corrupted gear is definitely not going anywhere before SL. And Titanforging is 100% dead.

And then saying we need MANDATORY grind of Torghast and MANDATORY Anima power (AP in short :P) grind (with a cap but we can go over it easily) and MANDATORY Covenant grind.

This is RIGHT NOW 3 new mandatory systems to grind even before we step foot into building our gear. And this is with patch 9.0 so imagine how many more shitty mandatory grinds, new mandatory currencies etc they will introduce in 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3 on top of that

Like, are people stupid or something?

[Elias01]

And then saying we need MANDATORY grind of Torghast and MANDATORY Anima power (AP in short :P) grind (with a cap but we can go over it easily) and MANDATORY Covenant grind.

This is RIGHT NOW 3 new mandatory systems to grind even before we step foot into building our gear. And this is with patch 9.0 so imagine how many more shitty mandatory grinds, new mandatory currencies etc they will introduce in 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3 on top of that

Like, are people stupid or something?

Have you count in fact gear aqusition is lika what? 300% faster than in any previous expansions? People walked in 465itemlvl gear 1 week into 8.3. So no **** game need new progression systems so game can actualy last atleast few months.

[Rogue Karl]

They had good gear (not the best gear, but good) from badges in Wrath, also the only place to get epic Relics. And in cata some of the tier gear came from badges.

I would argue that they shouldn't of existed. It felt like only cata had difficult enough heroics to justify it and they merged those to the ground after a while.

[Kumorii]

And then saying we need MANDATORY grind of Torghast and MANDATORY Anima power (AP in short :P) grind (with a cap but we can go over it easily) and MANDATORY Covenant grind.

This is RIGHT NOW 3 new mandatory systems to grind even before we step foot into building our gear. And this is with patch 9.0 so imagine how many more shitty mandatory grinds, new mandatory currencies etc they will introduce in 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3 on top of that

Like, are people stupid or something?

All games are designed by doing mandatory things...because that's what games are.
You not liking what a game offers you find one that offer the mandatory things you like.

[Elias01]

My opinion is that blizzard will do anything to stretch game time and gate the fuck out of anything as there is no tomorrow and will double down on every infinite grind possible. Because thats what they do now.
They have valid reason to do that, it works, exploiting player base and inhumane design really, really work.

They are not doing it to exploit players. They do it becouse their chase after acessbility with features like LFR, LFG, flying, welfare gear, faceroll leveling, windriders on everystep,etc.. decreased playtime drasticaly. It was so agressive that casuals had literaly nothing to do like 3 weeks into expansion. You dont see any of it in Vannila or TBC becouse content could last months with most people even finishing raid tier Blizzard had while new patch ready. There was no reason to gate anything.

[Onikaroshi]

I would argue that they shouldn't of existed. It felt like only cata had difficult enough heroics to justify it and they merged those to the ground after a while.

I'd argue the game was better then, instead of being all RNG you always had something you could work for. "In X days I can get my Item!". Same with PVP and old honor/conquest.

If you were good and doing Heroic Raids you were getting things faster, and better things, so really it was just overall a decent system.

[Elias01]

I'd argue the game was better then, instead of being all RNG you always had something you could work for. "In X days I can get my Item!". Same with PVP and old honor/conquest.

If you were good and doing Heroic Raids you were getting things faster, and better things, so really it was just overall a decent system.

Cata didnt had Mythic+, welfare worldq gear and LFR most of time. This system would not work in current raid/dungeon structure.

[StrawberryZebra]

Infinite grinds aren't harmful to the game, of anything they're actually good for overall well being of the the game, some players however can't control themselves and must grind grind grind, so they hate it.

What are the benefits to me as a player? You're saying that they're good for the game overall, I'd really like to know how you've come to that conclusion.

As someone who mainly just wants to raid, and has limited time to do so, AP has been hugely harmful to my experience in BFA. I'm currently raiding with a group of people in a similar situation to myself. I suppose you could call it a Dad Raid. It's mostly older players who've got family, children etc, and we're of understanding that sometimes people aren't going to be able to make it, will have to leave early etc.

No one has had anything positive to say about the system. It's only generated resentment at being forced to spend time doing other content.

I appreciate that's both anecdotal and people whos situation doesn't really reflect on the WoW playerbase as a whole. I'd like input from others as to what, if anything, makes the system fun.

You're saying it's good for the health of the game, but I'm just not seeing how it's good for me as a player.

So your idea is to completely ignore what is likely the most populated part of the game?

Is it the most populated out of choice or out of nessecity though?

I don't choose to do the Emissary Quests for Magni, but they're 3000 AP I can't afford to ignore. I'd argue that many others feel the same way about WQ's in general. I should have long since graduated past this part of the game, but I've still got to keep doing it continually because there's a resource I simply must have.

[Onikaroshi]

Cata didnt had Mythic+, welfare worldq gear and LFR most of time. This system would not work in current raid/dungeon structure.

That's not a good argument, it would definitely work. Nothing in M+ or LFR or Welfar WQ gear would prevent badges.

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What are the benefits to me as a player? You're saying that they're good for the game overall, I'd really like to know how you've come to that conclusion.

As someone who mainly just wants to raid, and has limited time to do so, AP has been hugely harmful to my experience in BFA. I'm currently raiding with a group of people in a similar situation to myself. I suppose you could call it a Dad Raid. It's mostly older players who've got family, children etc, and we're of understanding that sometimes people aren't going to be able to make it, will have to leave early etc.

No one has had anything positive to say about the system. It's only generated resentment at being forced to spend time doing other content.

I appreciate that's both anecdotal and people whos situation doesn't really reflect on the WoW playerbase as a whole. I'd like input from others as to what, if anything, makes the system fun.

You're saying it's good for the health of the game, but I'm just not seeing how it's good for me as a player.

Always having something to do, every time you log in, is a good thing. Always having something to work towards. Look at WoD, it didn't have ANYTHING outside of raiding and most people hated it.

And as for wanting to just raid and not having time, well MMO's are time consuming, if you don't have time to do the content maybe it's time to find another game. We can't have MMO's catering to people with "not enough time" or we end up with WoD again.

[Niwes]

seriously, if corruption system or similar one and the endless power/AP grind move into SL, i am finally done with this game.

i play wow since 2005 without interruption in sub. always was 100% sure i stop playing when the last server goes offline in 2031 or so and i never thought i stop playing that game for such reasons. i saw so much shit or better said stuff that was not tailored to me, saw so many things i thought „that could be easily done better“ or „they have just a giant broad audience of player types, so i accept it“ and so on. i saw this game moving from a fine MMORPG game to a sandbox based cash grab transport medium. all well and good. its ok.

but that alt behaviour, the meaning and design of gear in general and that absurd grind nature the game became, is finally, after Legion and BfA, even for a die hard fan like me, just too much.

maybe i try to live with classic only, but i do not like the class design of classic. maybe i stop completely playing after a while or maybe TBC servers rescue me. Its 15 years and the game changed A LOT. maybe its time to go.

but if SL has the same „systems“, same level of RNG, and same amount of grind... I. Am. Out. 100%

[Onikaroshi]

seriously, if corruption system or similar one and the endless power/AP grind move into SL, i am finally done with this game.

i play wow since 2005 without interruption in sub. always was 100% sure i stop playing when the last server goes offline in 2031 or so and i never thought i stop playing that game for such reasons. i saw so much shit or better said stuff that was not tailored to me, saw so many things i thought „that could be easily done better“ or „they have just a giant broad audience of player types, so i accept it“ and so on. i saw this game moving from a fine MMORPG game to a sandbox based cash grab transport medium. all well and good. its ok.

but that alt behaviour, the meaning and design of gear in general and that absurd grind nature the game became, is finally, after Legion and BfA, even for a die hard fan like me, just too much.

maybe i try to live with classic only, but i do not like the class design of classic. maybe i stop completely playing after a while or maybe TBC servers rescue me. Its 15 years and the game changed A LOT. maybe its time to go.

but if SL has the same „systems“, same level of RNG, and same amount of grind... I. Am. Out. 100%

Well, cya then? Cause they already said that they like corruption and will be having a similar system moving forward.

[Elias01]

[QUOTE=Onikaroshi;52162296]That's not a good argument, it would definitely work. Nothing in M+ or LFR or Welfar WQ gear would prevent badges.]

Oh really and fact that there is alredy way too many gear sources isnt enough? You want to add a other one? Not like it took about 1 week to be gear ready for mythic raiding alredy right.

[Onikaroshi]

Oh really and fact that there is alredy way too many gear sources isnt enough? You want to add a other one? Not like it took about 1 week to be gear ready for mythic raiding alredy right.

WQ gear is shit ilvl, LFR gear is shit ilvl. The only 2 valid choices for gear are M+ and Raiding which are both entirely RNG, having a deterministic source that can get you a piece every 2 weeks or so isn't a bad thing at all.

Though M+ should be capped. Maybe 1 of each key level for gear per week, just like mythic. Good players can push for extra gear, but you can't grind a +10 infinitely to be ready for raiding. M+ being infinite was ALWAYS a problem.

[Relapses]

WQ gear is shit ilvl, LFR gear is shit ilvl. The only 2 valid choices for gear are M+ and Raiding which are both entirely RNG, having a deterministic source that can get you a piece every 2 weeks or so isn't a bad thing at all.

Though M+ should be capped. Maybe 1 of each key level for gear per week, just like mythic. Good players can push for extra gear, but you can't grind a +10 infinitely to be ready for raiding. M+ being infinite was ALWAYS a problem.

You would need to have a vendor with gear for badges that correspond to every key level (or bracket). You'd end up with a vendor that has hundreds of pieces by the end of the expansion. It could easily be argued that while this helps gear to become more deterministic, it also introduces a separate issue that this would be confusing as fuck to a new or returning player.

Badge gear masks the bigger problem with current game's gearing methods. As long as M+ exists, some form of RNG on gear has to be around, else you end up with raiders farming it ad infinitum. It's nice to have pie in the sky ideas about the "good ol days" but the reality is that badge gear is a relic of the past and cannot exist without destroying M+ in the process.

[Onikaroshi]

You would need to have a vendor with gear for badges that correspond to every key level (or bracket). You'd end up with a vendor that has hundreds of pieces by the end of the expansion. It could easily be argued that while this helps gear to become more deterministic, it also introduces a separate issue that this would be confusing as fuck to a new or returning player.

Badge gear masks the bigger problem with current game's gearing methods. As long as M+ exists, some form of RNG on gear has to be around, else you end up with raiders farming it ad infinitum. It's nice to have pie in the sky ideas about the "good ol days" but the reality is that badge gear is a relic of the past and cannot exist without destroying M+ in the process.

No you wouldn't, you just have one badge gear for "normal" ilvl and one for "heroic" ilvl. There's zero reason you would need it for every bracket of M+ gear, that's just a copout.

And M+ needs some hard limits, this infinite grind for gear is just not sustainable. It destroys raiding below Mythic.

[StrawberryZebra]

Always having something to do, every time you log in, is a good thing. Always having something to work towards. Look at WoD, it didn't have ANYTHING outside of raiding and most people hated it.

And as for wanting to just raid and not having time, well MMO's are time consuming, if you don't have time to do the content maybe it's time to find another game. We can't have MMO's catering to people with "not enough time" or we end up with WoD again.

I already had something to do when I logged in - Raid. I already had something to work towards, completing AotC then moving on towards being ready to tackle it on Mythic when it's open for cross realm groups.

Rather than giving me something to do when I log in, it's given me something I need to log in and do. That is a significant distinction and why players resent and dislike the system.

I'm not the only person who has in game goals either. They may not all be raiding related, some may want to achieve high PvP ranks, or collect mounts. By your argument, the infiniate grind content isn't designed for these kinds of players. However you cannot opt out of the content, and it's linked to almost every other system in the game at this point. No matter how much you would prefer not to, your involvement in it is mandatory.

If your best argument for why these grinds are a good thing for the players is is "It makes you play X hours per week or GTFO!" then I would argue that you don't have a leg to stand on. That stance is extremely harmful to the game and it's player base. Players may just follow your suggestion and leave the game for good.