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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Except Poe's growing success proves it wrong. The retarded design of D3 is the minority in terms of what people generally want from an arpg.
    Nobody is saying D3 got it right; D3 has massive problems.

    But PoE is not a huge mainstream game either, at least not in terms of paying customers. Of course you'll get more total players in a free game, but that doesn't really say much about how many people would play it if it wasn't free - and that's what matters.

    Blizzard operates on different scales. It's not a niche company anymore, it's a mainstream AAA developer. Their goals are orders of magnitude removed from PoE, and their design will reflect that. Of course people that are super into the D2-style design still exist, but there's also SO MANY MORE other, more casual players that are just waiting to be roped into a new AARPG. And it's THOSE people Blizzard is most concerned about.

    PoE may stack up favorably against D3 (which is an older title now with barely any development going into it) but the point isn't to capture the D2 audience - it's to get the largest possible audience, whether they were into D2 or not.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    1. They scrapped one concept. The MMO D3 Blizzard North was working on. Similarly, the original D4 was a souls like 3rd person game, scrapped for the classic isometric design a few years ago.
    Thanks, God.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    First of all Time enjoyed is not time wasted, if you do not enjoy the leveling aspect of ARPGs at all, then maybe it's not your ideal genre? As far as I know, Diablo 3 Is the only big ARPG that easily level caps you? Not sure about Grim Dawn, didn't get to play it much. The journey in an ARPG is just as important as the end game is, it's the primary growth of your character where you learn all sorts of new spells and abilities.

    I personally do not enjoy the easy level cap experience of diablo 3. Getting to max level in a few hours (Yes, it only takes hours in D3) just to grind the same rifts over and over isn't fun to me. That being said, I am sure Diablo 4 will have the same system, because it's Blizzard and it's easier to balance. And if not, you can still play Diablo 3 (Until they pull a WC3 Reforged on it or shut down the servers. )
    I mean, the only question I have about this is... once you've leveled to 70 a few times, does it REALLY need to still take a long time the seventh, eighth, twentieth time around? Is there anything new or interesting you're really missing by just shooting to cap?

    Like, I disagree pretty hard with the argument that it's "all about the journey" if you've already DONE the journey quite a few times. It shouldn't be a pain in the dick slog for EVERY character you create, EVERY time. D3's leveling takes a fair amount of time if you're just starting the game for the first time and you're smart enough to refuse all plvl offers. If you're DETERMINED to go it on your own, you can get a decent amount of play time out of the leveling experience. It's less than other games, but I mean, my contention is that games like PoE/Grim Dawn are bound and determined to waste your time maybe a little bit more than they should. That's just me, maybe other people like pain in the ass grindy slogs. To each their own, I guess.
    "I have watched the other races... I have seen their squabbling, their ruthlessness. Their wars do nothing but scar the land, and drive the wild things to extinction. No, they cannot be trusted. Only beasts are above deceit." - Rexxar

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    -snip-
    To me it's not really a matter of competition, as PoE VS Diablo looks more Apple VS Oranges the more time passes. I mean, it's obvious they're competitors in the genre but given the widely different design choices i think they can just coexist with not many issues.

    What makes PoE important for Diablo, ARPGs and the industry in general, is how GGG is doing things. They have first of all a f2p game, and this attracts a lot of players. They are completely transparent in communication, are not afraid to admit errors and to try new stuff out. They make choices in design and know that this approach can drive out some players but they stick to their philosophy.

    Basically, they never tried to do an AAA game, they just try to make a good one. And this is paying off especially since old big studios have morphed into cash grabbing machines devoid of any passion.

    I am not hoping for Blizzard to change. I am hoping for the development team to have enough room to work with D4 and actually create good gameplay instead of being governed by white collars aiming for max profits with the minimum investment.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I am not hoping for Blizzard to change. I am hoping for the development team to have enough room to work with D4 and actually create good gameplay instead of being governed by white collars aiming for max profits with the minimum investment.
    Unfortunately, that's just not going to be very likely. Profit WILL come before all else, and that includes maximizing target audience beyond the usual core AAPRG demographic.

    The best we can hope for is for them to try and do that by providing a game that has depth and complexity in ways that caters to multiple audiences, and manages to provide something for everyone. Whether or not that works and makes for good design is the big question.

  6. #86
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    I hope it is a lot like D3. I liked D3. If People want PoE type Gameplay, just stick to PoE.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Except Poe's growing success proves it wrong. The retarded design of D3 is the minority in terms of what people generally want from an arpg.
    I'm pretty certain max concurrent player were 1.5M. It's a success, not in the same way D3 was, and it suffered from tons of bad shit like bad graphics, poor animations, janky gameplay, and systems bloat you all RIP WoW and Blizzard a new one over that regularly, yet no one bats an eye towards PoE over that shit. Then you have the ridiculous passive tree, and having to download special apps to plan your character so you don't fuck it up.

    I mean D3 had it's issues, but it's a better game IMO than PoE. And I want to like it. I really do. I try each league and just cant make it through that snorefest that is the campaign. Which is another downside. At least D3 added adventure mode instead of forcing players through the god awful campaign over and over.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Unfortunately, that's just not going to be very likely. Profit WILL come before all else, and that includes maximizing target audience beyond the usual core AAPRG demographic.

    The best we can hope for is for them to try and do that by providing a game that has depth and complexity in ways that caters to multiple audiences, and manages to provide something for everyone. Whether or not that works and makes for good design is the big question.
    We will see. I like what i saw because i know it's just a prototype - i like the style and the ideas behind, but it needs lots and lots of work on. For example, the talent trees are good as baseline system but the current implementation is even more than barebone.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    We will see. I like what i saw because i know it's just a prototype - i like the style and the ideas behind, but it needs lots and lots of work on. For example, the talent trees are good as baseline system but the current implementation is even more than barebone.
    Agreed. It seems to be going in a good direction, but they've taken a mere few steps on a journey of many miles. Let's hope they have it in them to go the distance.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    I'm pretty certain max concurrent player were 1.5M. It's a success, not in the same way D3 was, and it suffered from tons of bad shit like bad graphics, poor animations, janky gameplay, and systems bloat you all RIP WoW and Blizzard a new one over that regularly, yet no one bats an eye towards PoE over that shit. Then you have the ridiculous passive tree, and having to download special apps to plan your character so you don't fuck it up.
    Point is that even with all the bloat and complications, most people just check guides/youtube and copy a build, so they don't actually deal with anything about the systems. That's why it's not a problem. The pople who like theorycrafting are satisfied, everyone else have a working build ready to use.

    The fact there are a huge selection of skills makes so there are lots of builds available. Something D3 failed completely. Not saying one game is better than the other.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Point is that even with all the bloat and complications, most people just check guides/youtube and copy a build, so they don't actually deal with anything about the systems. That's why it's not a problem. The pople who like theorycrafting are satisfied, everyone else have a working build ready to use.

    The fact there are a huge selection of skills makes so there are lots of builds available. Something D3 failed completely. Not saying one game is better than the other.
    That's a problem IMO. If people ignore things in game just to follow a guide, it means you did poor job. Same for D3, where many go to site to get the best builds and go from there. I disagree with your last point. I played so many builds that were ever on any "tier list" because I like certain abilities. Of course LoN made things a bit better for non set builds. Something hopefully D4 is correcting, the reliance on sets.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    That's a problem IMO. If people ignore things in game just to follow a guide, it means you did poor job. Same for D3, where many go to site to get the best builds and go from there. I disagree with your last point. I played so many builds that were ever on any "tier list" because I like certain abilities. Of course LoN made things a bit better for non set builds. Something hopefully D4 is correcting, the reliance on sets.
    While i agree that the distance from sets is right, i think it has nothing to do with this.

    ARPGs are a genre based on one simple concept - efficiency. You farm the best spots for the best loots or the higher XP/hour ratio etc. Doing differently is just going to "hurt" you (meaning that compared to others you will naturally fall behind - though to me at least it has no meaning since the only progression that matters is my own).

    Anyway most players nowadays always look at the competitive side (as in "i am better than others"), and many just want the "easy way out". Many many people find fun to beat a challenge as fast as possible so they cannot move onto the next one, while their approach actually makes the whole thing easier.

    This is why cookie cutter builds won't cease to exist and why people will always search for guides/videos about the strongest build. It's in the nature of the game itself and cannot simply disappear.

    My opinion is that if all builds are all in a reasonably limited interval of power, any build can do all content and there's enough variety, i am fine. I never check guides, i design my own characters and i don't care if i "fail", since my objective has always been to see how far i can go.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  13. #93
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    Don't worry about Diablo 4, It's in the capable hands of Blizzard Devs.

  14. #94
    Elemental Lord Beazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    Don't worry about Diablo 4, It's in the capable hands of Blizzard Devs.
    LoL omfg my sides.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    While i agree that the distance from sets is right, i think it has nothing to do with this.

    ARPGs are a genre based on one simple concept - efficiency. You farm the best spots for the best loots or the higher XP/hour ratio etc. Doing differently is just going to "hurt" you (meaning that compared to others you will naturally fall behind - though to me at least it has no meaning since the only progression that matters is my own).

    Anyway most players nowadays always look at the competitive side (as in "i am better than others"), and many just want the "easy way out". Many many people find fun to beat a challenge as fast as possible so they cannot move onto the next one, while their approach actually makes the whole thing easier.

    This is why cookie cutter builds won't cease to exist and why people will always search for guides/videos about the strongest build. It's in the nature of the game itself and cannot simply disappear.

    My opinion is that if all builds are all in a reasonably limited interval of power, any build can do all content and there's enough variety, i am fine. I never check guides, i design my own characters and i don't care if i "fail", since my objective has always been to see how far i can go.
    Hell even in MMOs I never gave a flying fuck about falling behind, the xp/hr BS, or any of that. In ARPGs I play to push myself. So even if some builds suck that's fine. Why should an all Defensive aura/buff/shout build with no spenders be viable in all content? I know you aren't asking for this but many on the official forums are.

    I think there were plenty of build variety in D3, the issue is the focus was solely on the top GR builds. Which was basically 1 per class. Most of those tier lists have a few builds per set and multiple mixed set builds as well as a few LoN builds.

    I'd argue there was enough build variety and enough variety of builds to handle all content. I'm sure only a small % of players ever cleared a GR150. I cleared Inferno without using any AH but I have yet to come close. But then I don't try and I might have 1500 paragon split between two accounts. I have no desire to farm for perfect rolls and supplement that with augments and all that crap. Just like I wasn't spending years to get perfect item rolls in D2. I beat hell. I was done. I got as far as I could with this wacky shield bash pinball build I made, I'm done.

    I've been called a loser for not giving a shit about being competitive in a SP game. I guess I challenge myself, but could care Lee's about what anyone else does in game. It like a discussion on the official forums about the skills which ties back to D3. People complaining about how having access to all skills is bad and meaningless as if Blizzard forces anyone to change abilities. Stop worrying about how other people do things and you'll find you enjoy things a lot more.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I found Inferno to be a total mess. Only a couple of builds could exploit the game and do it "without problems", or you ran a shield barb. Difficulty was not much of an issue because itemization was shit and basically unfarmable until you bought stuff from AH - the few things that were good in an ocean of useless drops.
    Sounds like Diablo from the beginning to me. Recently went back to play D2 again and by the time you're in nightmare you're ignoring everything that isn't a set, socketed, or unique piece unless you're a masochist who picks up blues to vendor for gold to gamble.
    One of the most difficult things for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back.

  17. #97
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    LoL omfg my sides.
    Hey, it's true!

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    -snip-
    Well, i fully agree with your approach, as it's the same as mine; though we're the minority. Correctly you said that GR system makes so only one build can be at the top and there's no reason for anything else to exist.

    In D4 the endgame will be about dungeons which will work the same as M+ in WoW and will have a difficulty cap. That makes all the difference since we're not talking anymore about beating certain thresholds but just how fast someone wants to go. This way opens up to many more builds since if you're able to beat the content, to me it's classified as perfectly viable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Sounds like Diablo from the beginning to me. Recently went back to play D2 again and by the time you're in nightmare you're ignoring everything that isn't a set, socketed, or unique piece unless you're a masochist who picks up blues to vendor for gold to gamble.
    Well, you could roll good rares or craft stuff in D2. The point is that you didn't needed sets/uniques to be able to do stuff while gathering them made life easier. In D3 it's was the completely opposite - either you had a specific "cheesy" build or the right gear otherwise you could be easily at a wall.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  19. #99
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    I'm pretty certain max concurrent player were 1.5M.
    You must be smoking some dank delusional shit if you think D3 past its 1st launch year ever touched those digits. After the launch and rmt fiasco it never got up even with the lame attempts of RoS.
    Now addressing the absurdity of saying D3 being a better game than PoE, you just can't, you seriously can't say that. Trying to pretend that you are too lazy to learn/play the game which has infinitely more depth and reward doesn't make the mega garbage autoplay autotardgear design of D3 better. Those awesome animations don't make it better than PoE just as the micro crowd of lazy people preferring that play style can't ever bring anything in a debate about D3 vs PoE.
    A single PoE season that gets dished every 3 months has more content, more interesting, more daring and more flavour than Blizzard releases in 3 years.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    You must be smoking some dank delusional shit if you think D3 past its 1st launch year ever touched those digits. After the launch and rmt fiasco it never got up even with the lame attempts of RoS.
    Now addressing the absurdity of saying D3 being a better game than PoE, you just can't, you seriously can't say that. Trying to pretend that you are too lazy to learn/play the game which has infinitely more depth and reward doesn't make the mega garbage autoplay autotardgear design of D3 better. Those awesome animations don't make it better than PoE just as the micro crowd of lazy people preferring that play style can't ever bring anything in a debate about D3 vs PoE.
    A single PoE season that gets dished every 3 months has more content, more interesting, more daring and more flavour than Blizzard releases in 3 years.
    You're smoking something f you think PoE regularly sustains that number. Just the sure volume of RoS sales would say otherwise. Both games spike and fall off quickly. Both have garbage endgame systems. It's fine if you like one ove the other, but a game being better is purely subjective. For me the infinitely smoother combat, extremely readable enemies, and encouragement to try new builds makes D3 vastly superior to PoE. I just find it to be a boring game that doesn't feel good to play.

    As for learning, I prefer to learn how to play games while playing them. Not researching them on the internet.

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