dear blizzard take your time to make next xpansion right

[Seranthor]

.. and we still had those that quitted years ago which still play white knights on forums of games they do not play for years already.

So you accuse me of white knighting, yet you have never ever produced a single shred of evidence. Why not? Or are you going to continue your lying?

- - - Updated - - -

I surely would not call a game director who caters to the wrong people competent. Also, considering the debacle he created with BFA and patch 8.3.



I am sure they would still have a lot more customers if they did not focus on organized gameplay.

Have you remotely considered that YOU are the wrong people to cater to? You are 'sure' they'd have more customers if they listened to you? Prove it. Make your own game, run it the way you want, and show Blizzard how it should be done. Be the hero of your own story.

[kaminaris]

erm ... in world where bis corruption can give you like 20% of your dmg ? how about no.

Yes, that is how I spot bad players, complaining about corruption somehow making the game ignore skill.

[Gonfer]

Yes, that is how I spot bad players, complaining about corruption somehow making the game ignore skill.

It is more about spotting bad game design.

[kaminaris]

It is more about spotting bad game design.

Nah, gear is irrelevant anyways. Skill is the key.

[Gonfer]

Nah, gear is irrelevant anyways. Skill is the key.

In World of Warcraft?

In which universe?

[kaminaris]

In World of Warcraft?

In which universe?

In this universe and this world of warcraft. What makes you think guilds like limit/method are able to clear raids first 1-2 weeks while having subpar gear (worse than random bobs have 2 months into a patch)? Or what makes people do 24 keys while most people are struggling with 18s? Or arena gladiators?

Its not gear, it fukken skill.

[Gonfer]

Its not gear, it fukken skill.

Oh yeah, it is skill if a heroic raider with ilevel 470 kills an ilevel 430 pvp player in matchmade battlegrounds. No matter if the pvp player who plays matchmade battlegrounds plays them all day, while the raider joined it the first time.

Skill. Right.

"Play fair. Play nice". You know.

[Seranthor]

Oh yeah, it is skill if a heroic raider with ilevel 470 kills an ilevel 430 in matchmade battlegrounds. No matter if the guy who plays matchmade battlegrounds plays them all day, while the raider joined it the first time.

Skill. Right.

"Play fair. Play nice". You know.

Are you saying that because you dont have the motivation to be a heroic raider or to get 470 that other people should be limited by your lack of motivation... How 'fair' is that exactly?

[Kralljin]

I blame it on the devs and their wrong design focus on minorites they took from the start, by focusing on gameplay like organized raids and mythic+ dungeons, by focusing on competition and rated pvp. I blame the massive loss of players directly onto their design decisions, and yes, i blame the 60% loss of subs in the last quarter on the work of Ion Hazzikostas.

Has it ever occurred to you that no one really knows how *real casual* MMORPG is supposed to look like?

Like, the basic formula that Blizzard applied in creating WoW was a casualized version of Everquest.
That succeeded, so they kept casualizing the game because it worked in the past, removed barriers, increased accessability, made everything more convenient and yadada.

But i think we're at a certain point where this stops working, the issue with the legendary cloak and N'zoth LFR has shown that.
A cloak, that is the most powerful item within that slot for the remainder of this expansion, which power can be increased even further via Visions, acquireable via 2-3h questchain that doesn't have any real challenge involved...and people still skipped it.

I am not blaming casuals nor want to imply that going "more hardcore" would make the game better / more successful, but it gives you a hint that the "casualization of the reward structure" isn't the key to make a good casual game, but that's the catch, it's the one trick Blizzard had their bag for the last 15 years and that has kinda stopped working.

I've grown that apathetic towards the design of retail that i simply say:
Do whatever you want to do with the game, but make it enjoyable, being a casual game is not by default a bad thing to me , a game doesn't need to be super difficult to entertain me, but it needs some sort of entertainment value that has grown rather small to me.

Even if you want to disregard everything i said above, take my word as a hardcore raider:
The game does not cater towards the hardcore audience, a lot of people from the hardcore audience have spoken out and they are not happy with the direction of the game.
Not the "they're catering to casuals" or "it's too easy"; "Balance sucks" or whatever, they are complaining about intentional changes or systems made by Blizzard, where the devs have absolutely not budged at all to improve things for the "hardcore" audience.

And if both sides, the casual and hardcore, are complaining, it's perhaps a sign that the quality has simply degraded or the devs are creating content / gameplay loops that aren't that fun.
It just goes back what i implied above, i think Blizzard really wants to go full casual, but they have no damn clue how such a version of WoW is supposed to look like that is actually fun to play.

I mean, just as one example, do you really think Blizzard had Rated PvP on their Radar when they implemented corruption Affixes such as Echoing Void / Twilight Devastation / Appendages and Infinite Stars?
Somehow i doubt it.

[Seranthor]

It is more about spotting bad game design.

Forgive my insolence, but it seems to me that you cant even keep your story straight (whether you have quit, are quitting, or going to quit if Ion doesn't act on your demands). So what qualifies you to identify 'bad game design'. When its pretty clear that its just game design you dont approve of.

[Gonfer]

Has it ever occurred to you that no one really knows how *real casual* MMORPG is supposed to look like?

Well, the approach to adress organized groups only does not seem to work. Or do you think a fluctuation of 10 million players per year from start is actually healthy?

Like, the basic formula that Blizzard applied in creating WoW was a casualized version of Everquest.

Unfortunately, they stopped at the most interesting parts. In casualizing the raiding game. In casualizing pvp. From start.

That succeeded, so they kept casualizing the game because it worked in the past, removed barriers, increased accessability, made everything more convenient and yadada.

No, they did not casualize it enough. They kept raids old school for a very long time. And even LFR just was half assed.

But i think we're at a certain point where this stops working, the issue with the legendary cloak and N'zoth LFR has shown that.
A cloak, that is the most powerful item within that slot for the remainder of this expansion, which power can be increased even further via Visions, acquireable via 2-3h questchain that doesn't have any real challenge involved...and people still skipped it.

People do not expect a cloak to be a prerequisite for a theater mode for raiding content. The devs did neither care nor understand that.

I've grown that apathetic towards the design of retail that i simply say:
Do whatever you want to do with the game, but make it enjoyable, being a casual game is not by default a bad thing to me , a game doesn't need to be super difficult to entertain me, but it needs some sort of entertainment value that has grown rather small to me.

I think it is too late be done right. The devs fucked up the game and here we are.

Even if you want to disregard everything i said above, take my word as a hardcore raider:
The game does not cater towards the hardcore audience, a lot of people from the hardcore audience have spoken out and they are not happy with the direction of the game.
Not the "they're catering to casuals" or "it's too easy"; "Balance sucks" or whatever, they are complaining about intentional changes or systems made by Blizzard, where the devs have absolutely not budged at all to improve things for the "hardcore" audience.

They cater to premade group players. The best gear comes from premade groups. The raiding game is all based on premade group mechanics, even in LFR, while a matchmade group would need a complete different approach. The world content they create is a chore. Matchmade battlegrounds are gear-based, where heroic raiders may farm pvp only characters just because they killed some pixel bosses without any pvp skill. And premade groups roflstomp random groups.

Open world pvp is also based on ilevel, and therefore no gameplay for casual gamers.

And if both sides, the casual and hardcore, are complaining, it's perhaps a sign that the quality has simply degraded or the devs are creating content / gameplay loops that aren't that fun.

Yeah, the quality has degraded in general, yet, the game should have had another focus since start. The massive fluctuation of the players shows that. People buy the game, play it for some months, and quit it. Same goes to new expacs. People bought a new expac, leveled up, found that endgame sucked, and unsubscribed again.

Only because the devs do not know what the majority of their players wants.

[Kralljin]

People do not expect a cloak to be a prerequisite for a theater mode for raiding content. The devs did neither care nor understand that.

The problem is that the cloak isn't something you buy off the auction house.
Blizzard has put considerable amount of dev time of 8.3 into the cloak, the problem isn't accessability of that content or the difficulty, most just couldn't be arsed to do it.
And as said, that cloak is the most powerful item you can, especially in the larger picture of upgrade levels and corruption resistance.

The best gear comes from premade groups.

Yeah, you just exposed a massive flaw in your logic.
As said earlier, you can acquire the most powerful items within the game rather easily, cloak is one of them, a good corruption item can also come from virtually any source.
Yet there is a not a insignificant portion that flat out ignored the cloak, if you really care about getting the most powerful items, the cloak should be your #1 priority, which it absolutely wasn't for a lot of players within the LFR audience.

If it was as easy as dropping the best possible loot from extremely trivial (in terms of difficulty) content to massively boost your sub numbers, Blizzard would have done so.
But that's not how it works, if you just hand out power to players that easily, you just remove any incentive to play the game, as this game has always been about improving your character.

where heroic raiders may farm character just because they killed some pixel bosses without any pvp skill.

Remember Legion, yeah, where gear had virtually almost no impact on your character's power in PvP?
PvP participation dropped hard.

the game should have had another focus since start.

As said in my post above, WoW started as a casualized Everquest, that's still true at its core and if such a fundamental thing is problematic to you, then i really have to wonder why you started playing this game in the first place.

And after 15 years, Blizzard sure as shit won't fuck around with the direction of WoW, if subs drop further, they just ramp up MTX to compensate that.

The massive fluctuation of the players shows that. People buy the game, play it for some months, and quit it. Same goes to new expacs. People bought a new expac, leveled up, found that endgame sucked, and unsubscribed again.

Only because the devs do not know what the majority of their players wants.

Out of the many things that makes me discard the opinion of someone really quickly, the claim that they know what the silent majority wants or why they do things they way they do is most certainly one of them.

[sephrinx]

I'd rather let BFA stay on life support for another year and a half and have Shadowlands be above decent.

I don't want another shit expansion. I don't want a decent expansion. I want a fucking awesome one.

[Gonfer]

Out of the many things that makes me discard the opinion of someone really quickly, the claim that they know what the silent majority wants or why they do things they way they do is most certainly one of them.

It is a fact that 70-80% of the players played LFR, while less than 1% completed mythic raids.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, you just exposed a massive flaw in your logic.

Not really. You know, Blizzard thinks their vertical system is the non plus ultra, while it turned the game into a caste system. You have the caste of premade group players, the caste of matchmade players, and the caste of solo players.

The premade caste gets the best gear. The matchmade players gets LFR and dungeon gear lower than mythic. And the solo player caste gets quest rewards.

The premade caste is the top notch, without ever questioning, why they are, considering they make a small part of the playerbase.

The vertical progression also turned the game into an unfair game. As top level pve players have advantages in pvp, while they rarely play pvp. As questers have as good gear as normal raiders, while they do not raid at all.

The solution for this dilemma would be horizontal progression. Means, you have dedicated pvp gear, for both matchmade and premade brackets, dedicated permade group pve gear, dedicated matchmade group gear and dedicated solo player gear. All of them could have the best gear for their gameplay.

You would have to progress seperately in these game styles. A raider would have no advantage in pvp. A pvp player would have no advantage in raids. A solo quester would have no advantage in raids. A raider also no advantage in questing content. You could freely chose which gamestyle you played, without being forced into gameplay you did not like. That would be the best solution for all gamestyles.

[Kralljin]

It is a fact that 70-80% of the players played LFR, while less than 1% completed mythic raids.

...yes?
Does this make your claim somehow true?

The solution for this dilemma would be horizontal progression. Means, you have dedicated pvp gear, dedicated premade group gear, dedicated matchmade group gear and deidcate solo player gear. All of them could have the best gear for their gameplay.

So basically four different versions of the same game.
Might as well give each group dedicated servers.

Like, just straight up say that you want the most powerful gear instead of beating around bush - but once you have it, you'll realize that most of this "power" is mostly just in your head, not because you need this gear to beat certain content.

Go ahead, give people that are doing World quest gear that is equivalent to mythic raid gear while doing world quest, it won't change that much for them.
If you then go into PvP and everybody has the same, powerful gear, you will also realize that you are making the same mistake that the devs made in Legion.

The legendary cloak kinda shows that there are people within the LFR audience don't care that much about the relative power of their gear, they just want to progress their character while playing the game and you absolutely don't need Mythic gear to do any content outside of Mythic raiding.

[Gonfer]

...yes?
Does this make your claim somehow true?

Yeah? Do you think that LFR caters to the players it should adress really well, considering that they wipe their asses of at N'Zoth?

Do you think that the devs put any effort into LFR other than "design heroic raid, water down boss abilities, and remove some"?

Actually, LFR is not a little bit especially catered to the people which play it. Actually, the devs do not invest more than they have to into the difficulty that "justifies the massive creation of raid content".

They create the heroic raid, and not a special version of LFR gameplay. They invest all their effort into gameplay that does not matter for the majority, and water that minority content down to make the masses see content without any useful gameplay.

...yes?
So basically four different versions of the same game.
Might as well give each group dedicated servers.

No, that would split the realm communities. Horizontal progression would not.

Like, just straight up say that you want the most powerful gear instead of beating around bush - but once you have it, you'll realize that most of this "power" is mostly just in your head, not because you need this gear to beat certain content.

The most interesting fact about gear is that it is a reward for playing a game. And character progression is useful for every playstyle.

If you then go into PvP and everybody has the same, powerful gear, you will also realize that you are making the same mistake that the devs made in Legion.

The mistake was that gear still matered to a small degress in Legion. The real solution would have been complete normalization. That, or horizontal progression. It is unbelievable, that heroic raiders roflstomp dedicated pvp players in matchmade battlegrounds, and shows how the devs give a shit about playstyles they do not even understand. They want people who do not play what they like feel worse than those that play what they think is the high orgasmic gameplay.

The legendary cloak kinda shows that there are people within the LFR audience don't care that much about the relative power of their gear, they just want to progress their character while playing the game and you absolutely don't need Mythic gear to do any content outside of Mythic raiding.

As i wrote, gear is mainly a reward, also it allows character progression. And even a LFR player loves it to feel more powerful. Not just the posing mythic raider, who thinks he, and only he, should have the best rewards. No matter if he needs a higher item level for the endboss.

[Kralljin]

Yeah?

Simply being part of a group, doesn't automatically make you a spokesperson of this group.

Do you seriously think that no one ever at Activision Blizzard sat down and asked themselves how they could keep those people from unsubbing?
Perhaps the alternative explanation is that's not even a specific issue but a larger group simply has no interest in playing WoW on a Weekly / Daily basis.

New content comes out, they play it a bit, then stop because they had their fill and come back once there is new stuff.

Nah, couldn't be that, these people buy the newest expansion + sub every two years in the vain hope that WoW after 15 years now suddenly suits their playstyle - only to then quit after a few weeks.
And no one at Activision Blizzard ever figured that out and let Millions of revenue slip through their fingers.
Yeah, must be that.

I don't hold the devs / executives at Blizzard in the highest regard, but they're not that stupid.

Do you think that the devs put any effort into LFR other than "design heroic raid, water down boss abilities, and remove some"?

It's content that is designed with the intention to be easily adjustable for multiple difficulties - at low cost obviously.
I mean, don't think LFR is good designed content, partially because it is raid content for an audience that doesn't really want to raid.

They invest all their effort into gameplay that does not matter for the majority, and water that minority content down to make the masses see content without any useful gameplay.

Then maybe take a step back and look at more modern raids.

Say what you want about modern raid design, but the production quality of raids has gone up over years, especially since they made raids more accessible.
Modern raids are much more impressive on the visual side (because after all, visuals are something that is appreciated throughout every player group).

Look at Vanilla raids like MC or BWL, in terms of visuals, there is next almost nothing impressive in there besides maybe 1-2 new models.

If you've been in a volcanic cave in Searing Gorge, gratz, you've also seen the interior of MC, the Boss models are mostly just upscaled trash mobs.
Been in LBRS / UBRS? BWL won't show you a lot more unique stuff.

This even extends into TBC - both SSC and TK are basically 25man versions of their 5man counterparts - there's almost nothing unique in there on a visual level.

Now look at modern raids like Antorus, they just didn't take Assets from a 5man Dungeon to create that, a lot of it is unique, especially Encounters like Argus also extremely impressive on a visual level.
Take a Boss fight like Jaina, probably the most visual stunning encounter we've seen so far - It most certainly wouldn't have been that without the existance of LFR.

Or even take the very first LFR - both Deathwing fights might have been boring they were visually stunning.

Raids like Ny'alotha and EP are extremely visually impressive.
LFR's primary job is to give people a chance looking at these rather impressive and unique enviroments, because that is where Blizzard has absolutely put in a lot more money.

The encounter design, which handles gameplay in that regard, only has had a more difficult job because raids are supposed to cater to an extremely wide audience, which ranges from involves a sightseeing difficulty, two difficultes that ranges from 10 to 30 people and Mythic, which is supposed to pose a challenge to people.

From a gameplay PoV, it would be a lot more cost efficient if raids are far less inclusive, because they could easily create encounters with a fixed group size in mind and put whatever they want into there without having to think whether this would work in difficulty / raid size X or Y.

Want more effort put into gameplay?
While situations such as LFR N'zoth currently aren't good, it also shows why putting a focus onto gameplay within a PvE game rarely works for the casual audience - because the topic of difficulty becomes unavoidable.
It was already shown in Cata, there are casual players that encounter an obstacle, try it 2-3 times, then say "fuck it" and log out.

A good PvE game (mode) that wants to put its focus onto gameplay requires a modicum of difficulty, that however does not fly with the casual audience of WoW, especially once automated grouping systems are involved on top of that for the sake of convenience.

That is also the reason why a lot of other (single player) RPG's completely dodged gameplay as far as focus is concerned.
Take games like Witcher 3 or Red dead redemption - the game basically plays itself on lower difficulties, they know their strengths lies within the immersion, story and visual presentation - so they focused on that.

WoW as an MMORPG however struggles especially in the first two aspects.

No, that would split the realm communities. Horizontal progression would not.

What realm communities?
CRZ is omnipresent on Retail and because there are multiple difficulties, you don't even run into people from other difficulties while doing your activity.

You don't usually don't run into hardcore mythic raiders while doing more casual content - because they get nothing out of there, the entire community on retail is already extremely segregated.

The most interesting fact about gear is that it is a reward for playing a game. And character progression is useful for every playstyle.

And for what exactly do people that are doing world quest need the best gear?
This all comes from quite frankly a rather jealous mindset that only the best gear in the game feels rewarding, which doesn't hold any water.

You don't need the best gear available within the game to get a feeling of progression.

that heroic raiders roflstomp dedicated pvp players in matchmade battlegrounds

If you get stomped by people in heroic gear, you simply refuse to even get World quest / Emissary gear and are a terrible player on top of that.

[Gonfer]

Simply being part of a group, doesn't automatically make you a spokesperson of this group.

I just talk about what i observed in all those years i was playing world of warcraft. I dont pretend to be anyones spokeperson.

Do you seriously think that no one ever at Activision Blizzard sat down and asked themselves how they could keep those people from unsubbing?
Perhaps the alternative explanation is that's not even a specific issue but a larger group simply has no interest in playing WoW on a Weekly / Daily basis.

I think it just needs an ongoing narrative and monthy content updates to keep those casually playing players subbed. I think it just needs a compelling game experience in content they play most, and sorry, that is neither organized raids nor mythic+ dungeons. The bread and butter content in world of warcraft is without any doubt matchmade group content and the solo experiences, this is what the masses play, this is where blizzard needs to invest their effort into.

New content comes out, they play it a bit, then stop because they had their fill and come back once there is new stuff.

Yeah. So the solution is to add new stuff way more regularily. And not .. every 6 months, because the organized raiders completed the raid tiers.

Nah, couldn't be that, these people buy the newest expansion + sub every two years in the vain hope that WoW after 15 years now suddenly suits their playstyle - only to then quit after a few weeks.
And no one at Activision Blizzard ever figured that out and let Millions of revenue slip through their fingers.
Yeah, must be that.

I don't hold the devs / executives at Blizzard in the highest regard, but they're not that stupid.

It is not about stupidity, if is about fanatism. The devs at blizzard entertainment are fanatics with a heavy bias towards premade group play. They say that the game is "played best with friends", and focus everything onto that "played best" scenario. The game director, Ion Hazzikostas, talks about nothing else than premade and competetive gameplay, it seems he does not know any other gameplay that matters. The developers did not add LFR to be a viable endgame for the masses, but just for the sake to ".. justify the creation of large raids", which means, mainly raid gameplay that matters in premade settings. As there is only just one matchmade difficulty, but three premade difficulites (flex being a hybrid as it also adresses PuGs, yet, the focus is clear).

It's content that is designed with the intention to be easily adjustable for multiple difficulties - at low cost obviously.

You mean, finding the correct fine tuning for mythic raiding taking weeks is more justified than adding a seperate game system for LFR and making it worthwhile? Because that is what Hazzikostas likes most. To fine tune his own preferred difficulty. Instead of investing the effort to create a great experience for the masses.

I mean, don't think LFR is good designed content, partially because it is raid content for an audience that doesn't really want to raid.

See, that is what is my main concern. LFR is just a raped premade group play, and the developers do not invest a little bit effort to make this experience worthwhile for the millions of players that potentially plays LFR. So why should these players stay longer than seeing the very first run, if there is no other gameplay than "hope the mechanics are not too hard for the audience so we would not wipe for hours"?

Say what you want about modern raid design, but the production quality of raids has gone up over years, especially since they made raids more accessible.
Modern raids are much more impressive on the visual side (because after all, visuals are something that is appreciated throughout every player group).

No wonder it has gone up since LFR. As very many see the content. That is why the devs added LFR. Not to offer a compelling gameplay for the masses, but just to justify the creation of a big amount of well done raids for the audience they had been already made before.

Look at Vanilla raids like MC or BWL, in terms of visuals, there is next almost nothing impressive in there besides maybe 1-2 new models.

If you've been in a volcanic cave in Searing Gorge, gratz, you've also seen the interior of MC, the Boss models are mostly just upscaled trash mobs.
Been in LBRS / UBRS? BWL won't show you a lot more unique stuff.

Even these bad raid implementations were not justified, considering how few players played raids those days. Since LFR, the devs had a way to get the money from the casual gamers to make big raids, and unique raids. The hardcore raiding crowd has its raiding gameplay, and the masses get served.. N'Zoth. Where they wipe for hours. Preach made a video recently, where he wiped 6 hours with an LFR group on N'Zoth. Really, is that the "quality" blizzard wants to offer its customers? Is that the gameplay LFR players should get? Just because some stupid number juggler with a bias wants to create premade group focused gameplay only without any effort for many?

Now look at modern raids like Antorus, they just didn't take Assets from a 5man Dungeon to create that, a lot of it is unique, especially Encounters like Argus also extremely impressive on a visual level.
Take a Boss fight like Jaina, probably the most visual stunning encounter we've seen so far - It most certainly wouldn't have been that without the existance of LFR.

Yeah, yet, the devs do not honor the big audience that makes big raids possible. The people want a theater mode. The devs give them a wipe fest. For some malicious joy of organized raiders. While i do not really wonder blizzard lost 149 million players with that attitude.

Raids like Ny'alotha and EP are extremely visually impressive.
LFR's primary job is to give people a chance looking at these rather impressive and unique enviroments, because that is where Blizzard has absolutely put in a lot more money.

LFR is a component in a computer game, and should not just allow people to perma-wipe on a boss whichs gameplay was created for premade groups mainly. It should have a compelling gaming experience for matchmade groups, it should have dedicated gameplay for those that pay the great art and assets you enjoy. But no, rather than that the devs invest all their design effort into the premade version.

The encounter design, which handles gameplay in that regard, only has had a more difficult job because raids are supposed to cater to an extremely wide audience, which ranges from involves a sightseeing difficulty, two difficultes that ranges from 10 to 30 people and Mythic, which is supposed to pose a challenge to people.

The encounter design in LFR needs to be completely different than in premade groups. The whole concept of including the holy trinity is nothing worth in a matchmade settings, where building a group built around the existence of tanks and healers ends in hour long queues and the fact to give all responsibility of that bad implementation to a very few, mainly the tanks and the healers.

It is bad design to expect a matchmade group to organize the group setup. It is bad design to lazily implement the minority gameplay and to derive the mass gameplay from it, while both are just completely different.

From a gameplay PoV, it would be a lot more cost efficient if raids are far less inclusive, because they could easily create encounters with a fixed group size in mind and put whatever they want into there without having to think whether this would work in difficulty / raid size X or Y.

Cost efficiency surely is not the biggest concern of a player, or dont you agree? Players want a compelling game experience, or they quit.

Want more effort put into gameplay?
While situations such as LFR N'zoth currently aren't good, it also shows why putting a focus onto gameplay within a PvE game rarely works for the casual audience - because the topic of difficulty becomes unavoidable.
It was already shown in Cata, there are casual players that encounter an obstacle, try it 2-3 times, then say "fuck it" and log out.

In this regard, Greg Streets idea failed miserably, to add back difficulty to dungeons and raids. I remember his arrogant "dev water cooler" where he talked about dungeons being challenging, and why he thinks it is great.. while losing million of casual gamers. And that did not stop with Cataclysm. Every new expansion those players hoped to find an ongoing fun experience in endgame, and the devs have never been able to create that. Only because they focus on the wrong gameplay, and cannot even imagine that players do not want to experience what the devs serve them.

That is also the reason why a lot of other (single player) RPG's completely dodged gameplay as far as focus is concerned.
Take games like Witcher 3 or Red dead redemption - the game basically plays itself on lower difficulties, they know their strengths lies within the immersion, story and visual presentation - so they focused on that.

WoW as an MMORPG however struggles especially in the first two aspects.

WoW struggles with its developers focusing on the wrong gameplay. It always did. The devs wanted great raids. They did everything to achieve that goal. With the fact that the version that justifies big raids is just a horrible implementation for those who are meant to pay for it.

What realm communities?
CRZ is omnipresent on Retail and because there are multiple difficulties, you don't even run into people from other difficulties while doing your activity.

Currently, the world only has one difficulty. And world pvp is "the best geared and organized survives".

You don't usually don't run into hardcore mythic raiders while doing more casual content - because they get nothing out of there, the entire community on retail is already extremely segregated.

Even mythic raiders have to do world content if they want the cosmetic questing rewards. The devs design the game in a way everyone is lured into every gameplay, no matter if people love to focus on their own agency. A pvp player needs to run pve dungeons and raids to get competetive gear. Someone who wants to level sub races neeeds to run dungeons on mythic difficulty just to be allowed to play that race. See mechagnomes and Kul Tirans.

I think the best way to implement the different playstyles is to allow players to focus on what they like, and not to force everyone into gameplay just for the sake to gate gameplay.

And for what exactly do people that are doing world quest need the best gear?

To be able to do quests faster, for example. And to obtain better and better gear. Literally the same as raiders. Also, to have an ongoing reward for playing the game.

This all comes from quite frankly a rather jealous mindset that only the best gear in the game feels rewarding, which doesn't hold any water.

No, actually an ongoing character progression feels rewarding. Means, you start with feeling rather weak, and get better and better and make the world experience easier and easier as better gear you get. That is the same in raids, people get better gear, and become able to beat bosses faster. There is no reason not to have an ongoing character progression in content outside of raids. Except the entitlement of some raiders believing they, and only they, exclusively earn the right to enjoy a progression.

You don't need the best gear available within the game to get a feeling of progression.

Everyone feels great if he has collected the best gear for his gamestyle. And casual gamers will want to play alts once they progressed to the maximum available. Which is one of the other horror stories in current WoW.

If you get stomped by people in heroic gear, you simply refuse to even get World quest / Emissary gear and are a terrible player on top of that.

You have no chance to win in world pvp or matchmade battlegrounds with -30 ilevels. It is all about gear, and not skill in that regard. Also, if a premade organized group adds themself to the queue, they will always win over a random group. Matchmade pvp is the gamestyle that suffers most from developer biases in this regard. Once again.

[kamuimac]

\

You don't usually don't run into hardcore mythic raiders while doing more casual content - because they get nothing out of there, the entire community on retail is already extremely segregated.

\.

i wonder where all those 470 people who que for my WF groups in lfg come from

since according to you mythic raiders dont do casual content.

and atm usually half the group are 470 .

[Kralljin]

I dont pretend to be anyones spokeperson.

Using participation rates as an argument does imply that however.

Yeah. So the solution is to add new stuff way more regularily. And not .. every 6 months, because the organized raiders completed the raid tiers.

The bread and butter for the raiding scene are the encounters, the biggest workload are the visuals.
They could've kept the Vanilla formula and throw a new raid together within a few weeks by re using the visuals and assets from world content / 5man dungeons.

It is not about stupidity, if is about fanatism. The devs at blizzard entertainment are fanatics with a heavy bias towards premade group play.

No, they just don't know how to built a good MMO without these aspects.
Your idea of "horizonal progression" follows the same mistakes, you are just casualizing the reward structure, not changing the actual game.

And at this point, Blizzard won't fuck around with the formula any further, because if they fuck it up, Blizzard has a huge problem.
And corporate structures aren't known for taking on great risks.

Is that the gameplay LFR players should get? Just because some stupid number juggler with a bias wants to create premade group focused gameplay only without any effort for many?

Hanlon's razor.
You should look it up.

While i do not really wonder blizzard lost 149 million players with that attitude.

Considering your complaints about gearing, it's absolutely ironic to pull this argument.
During the "prime" of the game, you got even worse gear without being part of a guild in the grand scheme of things.

LFR is a component in a computer game, and should not just allow people to perma-wipe on a boss whichs gameplay was created for premade groups mainly.

I've called the situation of LFR N'zoth "not good", so i have no idea why you even bring this argument.

The encounter design in LFR needs to be completely different than in premade groups.

Thinking that you could somehow turn LFR into a great experience while also keeping the raid aspect alive shows that you really have no idea what you're talking about.
What sort of encounter design you then want to see?
Anything that's remotely difficult is off the table.

I said it above, the issue of LFR is the fact that it's supposed to deliver a raiding experience to people who do not want to raid, which should give a hint that this content has some "design restrictions".

The whole concept of including the holy trinity is nothing worth in a matchmade settings, where building a group built around the existence of tanks and healers ends in hour long queues and the fact to give all responsibility of that bad implementation to a very few, mainly the tanks and the healers.

Yeah, because there are no casuals that want to heal or tank.
Man, visions must be right up your alley.

It just works off the regular tank/healer/dps formula, which works perfectly fine even for the casual playerbase, as seen in 5man dungeons.

Only because they focus on the wrong gameplay, and cannot even imagine that players do not want to experience what the devs serve them.

It's the point where i really need to make a cut.
If you have *the* idea how a casual WoW is supposed to look like, go ahead, apply to Blizzard and present your idea, if it truly brings in Millions of player as you say, they'll take it.

And before you paint a picture of the "evil hardcore devs" again, their leashes are being held by people who just care about money, nothing more.

i wonder where all those 470 people who que for my WF groups in lfg come from

1. An Achievement they're missing
2. Transmog (Warfront loot has the Elite PvP Armor skin from S1 / S2, which is now unavailable)
3. Possible corrupted Item from the Heroic Darkshore Warfront

I don't think they're exactly common, however.