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  1. #101
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    I think there is a lot of truth in that.

    EA just isn't going to invest the amount of money needed to do anything with swtor. They are happy to ride it out till their contract ends in 2023. I have no doubt it makes enough to not shut the doors but 2023 is closing in.

    Like anthem, development will just eventually stop and while it kind of feels like that now it's so slow, EA will leave servers up and collect their monthly fees and cash shop fees and generally ignore swtor from then on. Which is likely the only reason anthem is still up and running as well. There is a chance someone still spends money to buy it or in the over priced cash shop.
    SWToR kind has already gone through that phase.

    There were 3 years between KotFE and Onslaught where they started just trickling out content in the form of flashpoints for the most part.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #102
    I do not think so. The Star Wars IP took a massive hit with the last trigoly. SW is nowhere near as popular as it used to be i am afraid.

    I played SWTOR at launch, and it was a fun mmo. Back then Bioware was still a good studio as well. The game suffered a lot from its technical issues and the limited number of races available though (blue human, red human, human, human with horns, human with tentacles..). No Jawa, no Wookies etc.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Which is likely the only reason anthem is still up and running as well. There is a chance someone still spends money to buy it or in the over priced cash shop.
    That's very much not why. I highly doubt Anthem has generated enough revenue to even be statistically significant in a long time. They leave it up because it's a bad look to kill it so soon and the operating costs for a game without an active development team and a small server footprint (tiny population) are negligible. They lose more on the reputation from from a quick closure than they lose financially by keeping the game live.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It was simply not set up for success, at all. Sure it had the "BioWare Magic(tm)" and the Star Wars IP, but that was never going to be enough to account for the design issues present in the game that were pretty core to its foundation.
    What would you say those are?

    I only played it from around a month or two after launch up until a little after they announced they were going f2p. But during that time I enjoyed the game, I really only quit because I had a hard time finding a good guild with the game hemorrhaging players and I had finally found a great one and it dissolved the second they announced f2p + my friend was trying to convince me to join his wow guild to do their weekend raid.

    But I enjoyed the shit out of swtor, I honestly can't remember having any glaring "core" issues with the game. It just had bugs and needed some polish and a lot of that stuff got fixed over the course of me playing. Granted at the time I had quit wow and the last time I had touched an mmo was TBC, but swtor just seemed like an improvement by comparison.

    It was really the only time I've ever played an mmo where I actually enjoyed making alts because of the 8 storylines basically being 8 different lil rpg's I got to experience. I revisited it for a few days more recently and at least the questing felt like it held up.

    I have no idea where they went with the game after the Denova raid though.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  5. #105
    As a fan of SWTOR, no for multiple reasons.

    1) The engine itself has always been a hassle since they bought the alpha version of it.
    2) EA no longer has exclusive rights to the Star Wars license, so while they'll keep SWTOR going as long as they can, they are unlikely to double down on the investment on such an older title
    3) Bioware team who made it is long since gone
    4) Bioware itself is on a short leash currently proverbially. They were on top of the world when they made SWTOR. Now? They don't really command the clout in the gaming world to ask EA for another hundred million

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    What would you say those are?
    Bad choice of engine given the lack of engineering expertise.
    Focusing too much on copying WoW (there was a quote from one of the Dr's about how any MMO not copying a lot from WoW was dumb).
    Thinking 8 unique storylines with unique dialogue and cutscenes was feasible and sustainable.
    Small population cap servers without cross-server grouping for dungeons and no meaningful dungeon finder tool despite it being industry standard by that time.
    Thinking it would take players 3+ months to hit max level and consequently not having much of an endgame at launch, and not a lot in the hopper for post-launch. This is the biggest one for me since it speaks to how grossly out of touch the team was with how MMO gamers actually play MMO's.
    Pushing PvP content to keep players busy post-launch (Hutt Ball, which is popular but hardly what folks came to SWTOR for).
    The bad, on the rails space combat that pretty much nobody liked.
    Dovetailing off that the "nobody wants to see an episode of han and chewie dicking around in space" comments about why they weren't going to allow any kind of open spaceflight which...everyone hated (speaking more to them kinda missing the mark with a lot of their decisions)
    Some bad class design that had to be addressed over time (certain classes not being able to do their role on some bosses, like shadow tanks having a helluva a time on some bosses with their cooldowns)
    To the earlier points, reports that alpha raid tester feedback was frequently ignored as the testers providing feedback were often told they were "wrong".

    I'm probably forgetting a lot more, but BW really didn't set themselves up for success for a host of reasons. That doesn't mean I think the game was totally bad, it was bad at launch IMO (a friend I told not to buy it bought it and regretted it), but it was deeply flawed at launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    But I enjoyed the shit out of swtor, I honestly can't remember having any glaring "core" issues with the game. It just had bugs and needed some polish and a lot of that stuff got fixed over the course of me playing. Granted at the time I had quit wow and the last time I had touched an mmo was TBC, but swtor just seemed like an improvement by comparison.
    It was a HUGE improvement from TBC WoW, but was behind a lot of trends in the industry overall (like group finder) and BW was pretty arrogant about why they didn't do X or Y...only to have to do X or Y after realizing that nobody liked the decisions (again, group finder sticks out most to me). The class stories are solid though, always were, but the problem is while they're great the post-story game was...lacking. So BW, expecting people to take months to hit max level, was telling folks to level alts shortly after launch when they were asking about what what coming around the bend for the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    It was really the only time I've ever played an mmo where I actually enjoyed making alts because of the 8 storylines basically being 8 different lil rpg's I got to experience. I revisited it for a few days more recently and at least the questing felt like it held up.
    Yeah, they're great little RPG's each, but just don't combine to make a good "MMO", which was the games long-running issue. It was much more of a single player RPG taking place in a MMO than an actual MMO. They've had issues with that over the years, pushing more group/MMO content at times and then knee-jerking back to a nearly 100% solo experience for the KotFE storyline, only to double back again and focus the KotET expansion on said group content.

  7. #107
    It's not that MMOs aren't profitable. They are. Even SWOTR makes really nice profit or else it would have been long gone. They won't run these things as a loss. Where MMOs suffer is having a massive up front cost. Massive up front time requirements. Then the need to continue development though patch cycles that go beyond balance changes and new maps. They also are steady more gain machines a less splash spike in profit models business seems to favor these days. Sure, I would be happy with steady gains but in that world it's endless growth or death. Which yeah, I hate, but that just seems how it is.

  8. #108
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    I do not think so. The Star Wars IP took a massive hit with the last trigoly. SW is nowhere near as popular as it used to be i am afraid.

    I played SWTOR at launch, and it was a fun mmo. Back then Bioware was still a good studio as well. The game suffered a lot from its technical issues and the limited number of races available though (blue human, red human, human, human with horns, human with tentacles..). No Jawa, no Wookies etc.
    People are severally overestimating the "hit" Star Wars took with the Sequel Trilogy. Galaxy Edge was huge and is set during that time. Yes, the hype will die down. But, you have tons of people going crazy for Mando. Star Wars IP is if anything stronger than when Disney bought it. The High Republic Novels are NY Times best sellers despite people saying it sucks. You have new characters that have yet to appear in live action that people love.

    The bulk of the money from Star Wars IP is in merchandizing which Disney has exclusive rights to. Disney owns the 3rd through 5th highest grossing media franchises of all time (Winnie the Pooh, Mickey Mouse, & Star Wars). The Star Wars IP is fine and can take hits far far far worse than the sequel trilogy did.

    If a new Star Wars MMO was released, people would play it because it is Star Wars.

    And playable races because of cutscenes are required to be humanoid and because they are voice acted are required to be able to speak basic. Jawa and Wookiee fail the 2nd requirement.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Thinking 8 unique storylines with unique dialogue and cutscenes was feasible and sustainable.
    This is one of those things that is great on paper, but the implementation is killer. Essentially post base game, the only things "unique" is flavor dialogue and one quest on Rishi in the 2nd expansion.

    It also locks you from adding a new class to the game. As you are required to add an entire story for that class or have it be a randomly introduced new character. Neither of those work well.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    This is one of those things that is great on paper, but the implementation is killer. Essentially post base game, the only things "unique" is flavor dialogue and one quest on Rishi in the 2nd expansion.
    There are a handful of class-specific one-liners (though I don't know if they reference any of the specific choices you made) throughout the expansions if memory serves, I took a Sage and a Sniper through KotFE (I think I finished all of it) to get the empire/republic and force/non-force user experience and recall the occasional acknowledgement of my class/faction. But really, that's about all they can do without needing to record like 4-8 different versions of much of the dialogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It also locks you from adding a new class to the game. As you are required to add an entire story for that class or have it be a randomly introduced new character. Neither of those work well.
    This is the biggest bummer for me. The cost for a new class with a class story is astronomical, that's a ton of new dialogue, a ton of new cutscenes, and depending on if they did it a ton of work updating some of the class-specific dialogue from expansions. And they'd have to do it twice, since the class would need to be mirrored.

    It's not a great comparison since the story is far weaker, but GW2's approach makes it way easier. The story is tied to your race and dovetails into the "main" story that all races participate in (with racial callouts), so adding a new class like the Revnant doesn't require that they redo the whole story for it. Nor does adding new specs to existing classes, which is another thing that SWTOR has never done.

    I'd actually be quite curious to see what a new MMO from the BW Austin team would look like nowadays. They've got tons of experience with SWTOR plus other projects they've worked on like Anthem (where their advice was apparently ignored by Edmonton), and I'd love to see how they'd translate all of that into a new MMO experience, Star Wars or not.

  10. #110
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    There are a handful of class-specific one-liners (though I don't know if they reference any of the specific choices you made) throughout the expansions if memory serves, I took a Sage and a Sniper through KotFE (I think I finished all of it) to get the empire/republic and force/non-force user experience and recall the occasional acknowledgement of my class/faction. But really, that's about all they can do without needing to record like 4-8 different versions of much of the dialogue.
    In Chapter 9? Anarchy in Paradise, if you are a Jedi Knight who had completed Doc's companion quests and met Kaliyo during it. You have the option to refer to Kaliyo as "Doc's Friend." There are some other aspects, like how Theron introduces your character to Jorgan if you are someone other than a Trooper. But, most of it is just favor. It sucks that as a smuggler if you have Vette alive and reunite with Risha there is no scene with the two of them reuniting or the soldier for the Consular who I am blanking on name if he meets Jorgan.

    There are some to show they paid attention, but they ignore so much more.

    This is the biggest bummer for me. The cost for a new class with a class story is astronomical, that's a ton of new dialogue, a ton of new cutscenes, and depending on if they did it a ton of work updating some of the class-specific dialogue from expansions. And they'd have to do it twice, since the class would need to be mirrored.

    It's not a great comparison since the story is far weaker, but GW2's approach makes it way easier. The story is tied to your race and dovetails into the "main" story that all races participate in (with racial callouts), so adding a new class like the Revnant doesn't require that they redo the whole story for it. Nor does adding new specs to existing classes, which is another thing that SWTOR has never done.

    I'd actually be quite curious to see what a new MMO from the BW Austin team would look like nowadays. They've got tons of experience with SWTOR plus other projects they've worked on like Anthem (where their advice was apparently ignored by Edmonton), and I'd love to see how they'd translate all of that into a new MMO experience, Star Wars or not.
    Yeah, I agree.

    If I had to pick an MMO from Bioware, I would love a Mass Effect MMO personally. If you set it before Mass Effect where a lot hasn't been fully explored, but post First Contact War, you have the ability to play as either Citadel or Terminus; and you have biotics, tech, and combat to built off of to make classes.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    What would you say those are?
    Its been a while so my memory of it is spotty but at launch there was a lot of complaints about long animations that locked you in which made combat feel very clunky, especially in PvP situations.

    And as Edge said, a complete lack of content at the end-game. It utterly cratered after the first month and simply could not hold onto players.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    There are some to show they paid attention, but they ignore so much more.
    I don't think they "ignored", they just have limited budgets so spending a bunch of time trying to work in callbacks to 8 classes into the dialogue without it feeling overly clunky, and then recording that additional VO etc. isn't really something they can justify to get the budget for it. I bet they'd love to do a lot more callbacks and things like this if the resources existed...they just don't : /

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    If I had to pick an MMO from Bioware, I would love a Mass Effect MMO personally.
    I'm still sad we never saw the asymmetric PvP modern fantasy game from BW Austin. The PvP aspect was uninteresting to me (super over that for the most part), but I'll take literally anything that's modern fantasy. Secret World and the Dresdon Files are super up my alley. Though we didn't know squat about it overall so... : /

    Reals though, I don't think MMO's make sense for BW at all. Their approach to narrative driven games fits much, much more with a single player experience, and we've seen that confirmed with SWTOR and Anthem (though Anthem could easily be more chalked up to BW Edmonton's hubris and refusal to listen to BW Austin and their tons of experience with MMO's). Their strengths don't fit well with a MMO structure, and I don't think they excel at world building/atmosphere without those deep character connections in a way that say, Funcom does with Secret World and the atmosphere/world they build there (largely without a huge deep dive on characters, but with tons of interesting characters you briefly meet and a few repeat characters).

    I don't even want a MMO from BW, or an always-online live service game. I'd be happy with some coop in their RPG's or a multiplayer mode a la ME3 (though I wasn't the biggest fan of it personally).

  13. #113
    Against all hope, today we are surprised with the announcement of an entire new expansion for SWTOR! Legacy of the Sith is actually going to have a new Operation, even, for those that are interested in such things.

    The official article:
    https://www.swtor.com/legacyofthesith

    A CBR article if you don't want to go to the official website:
    https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-ol...ith-expansion/

    Lots to unpack, sounds interesting so far though.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  14. #114
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    I think the interesting thing is that they're planning on upgrading their tech (not a new engine) which makes me think that they see a future in the game.

  15. #115
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Against all hope, today we are surprised with the announcement of an entire new expansion for SWTOR! Legacy of the Sith is actually going to have a new Operation, even, for those that are interested in such things.

    The official article:
    https://www.swtor.com/legacyofthesith

    A CBR article if you don't want to go to the official website:
    https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-ol...ith-expansion/

    Lots to unpack, sounds interesting so far though.
    I am interesting in the combat stuff. Like do you take on the skills of that class, or could it also just be as simple as you can replace the weapon. Like I like the Sith Warrior abilities, but I want to use a double bladed saber on my warrior ... if that is possible, then that is great. If it I have to trade for the Assassin stuff it is meh, all it is allowing is you to be an Assassin but call yourself a warrior.

    Note: It is a short "quest" but spoilers: Also, given stuff that happened recently. It appears that even though classes have gotten characters back, that other classes may encounter/recruit the character later (Akaavi has returned for Smuggler already and Bounty Hunters can recruit her. And Zenith hints at joining up for missions.) So, we may still get 39 (or all 40) of the companions, or have the ability.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-07-02 at 12:43 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  16. #116
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I am interesting in the combat stuff. Like do you take on the skills of that class, or could it also just be as simple as you can replace the weapon. Like I like the Sith Warrior abilities, but I want to use a double bladed saber on my warrior ... if that is possible, then that is great. If it I have to trade for the Assassin stuff it is meh, all it is allowing is you to be an Assassin but call yourself a warrior.
    From an actual gameplay standpoint you'll now have 4 different playstyles accessible to you on one character from what I understand. But if you want to play a Sith Assassin on your Sith Warrior it will be identical to playing it on a Sith Inquisitor.

  17. #117
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    From an actual gameplay standpoint you'll now have 4 different playstyles accessible to you on one character from what I understand. But if you want to play a Sith Assassin on your Sith Warrior it will be identical to playing it on a Sith Inquisitor.
    Yeah, that is what it sounds like. I don't like it. I don't want the Sith Assassin talents, just the weapon. But, it seems like it I want the weapon, I need the powers which I don't want.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I am interesting in the combat stuff. Like do you take on the skills of that class, or could it also just be as simple as you can replace the weapon.
    Yeah, sounds like something is going on with advanced classes as well. Very curious to hear more about this, might be worth figuring out my account info again and catching up with the stuff after KotET.

    Definitely surprised to see them announcing an expansion. Granted it's a SWTOR expansion, so not quite your full fledged "boxed MMO expansion", but still a pleasant surprise given that things have been a bit quite for a while.

  19. #119
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yeah, sounds like something is going on with advanced classes as well. Very curious to hear more about this, might be worth figuring out my account info again and catching up with the stuff after KotET.

    Definitely surprised to see them announcing an expansion. Granted it's a SWTOR expansion, so not quite your full fledged "boxed MMO expansion", but still a pleasant surprise given that things have been a bit quite for a while.
    I still play luckily. I am interested in it, but we will see. It would be interesting to have my Dark Side Jedi Sage user Sorc abilities. But, I also like just using the Sage abilities.

    My Avatar is literally one of my characters (My Dark Side Sith Warrior.)
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yeah, that is what it sounds like. I don't like it. I don't want the Sith Assassin talents, just the weapon. But, it seems like it I want the weapon, I need the powers which I don't want.
    If I'm understanding the Combat Styles portion correctly, it's basically for new characters. Essentially you select your AC and your storyline separately from each other. I'm not interested in new characters so this is a bit underwhelming for me, but I do like the idea of playing through the Bounty Hunter storyline with an Agent or Smuggler toolkit. But, right now, if I want to play Agent I'll get on my Agent.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

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