What exactly makes some people say Legion was good but BfA is bad?

[kaminaris]

Oh brother...
Legendary means it's orange. Blizzard said it was legendary too. Strange thing to point out it's not legendary when it will be. So we are indeed getting a legendary wether you like it or not.

You can name it as you like, but "legendary" in original sense lost it's meaning with free handouts.

Will be interesting to see how the legendary will be built though. Probably drop/grind which are targetable. Hope the legendary will be powerful. At least we don't get the shitty azerite armor and band aid essences. It's pretty clear they see them as failures, especially the armor which they already acknowledge were a mistake. I guess they also learned from the success from Legion, of artifact weapon(soulbinds) and legendaries(making a legendary) which were popular. Focus more on transmogs like they did with the artifact weapon skins. The paralells are clear.

I'm honestly not interested at all. This concept is shit anyways, that only takes out equipment slots and effectively makes us have one (or more) slots less.
Especially with that massive failure in legion. Blizzard learned that it just doesn't work, same as bandaid artifact weapon garbage so we are getting essence like system in forms of covenants. Cause that is essentially what covenants are - azerite essences.

Targettable legiondaries are closer to benthic gear than legiondaries.
Soulbinds are nothing like artifact weapon. They are generic, not spec specific. And you can't activate them all. We all know artifact was a failure.
And covenants are like azerite essences, one generic active ability and one class specific ability.


Yeah it's clear, shadowlands is way closer to BfA than legion. In most of the aspects.

[TheLucky1]

You can name it as you like, but "legendary" in original sense lost it's meaning with free handouts.


I'm honestly not interested at all. This concept is shit anyways, that only takes out equipment slots and effectively makes us have one (or more) slots less.
Especially with that massive failure in legion. Blizzard learned that it just doesn't work, same as bandaid artifact weapon garbage so we are getting essence like system in forms of covenants. Cause that is essentially what covenants are - azerite essences.

Targettable legiondaries are closer to benthic gear than legiondaries.
Soulbinds are nothing like artifact weapon. They are generic, not spec specific. And you can't activate them all. We all know artifact was a failure.
And covenants are like azerite essences, one generic active ability and one class specific ability.


Yeah it's clear, shadowlands is way closer to BfA than legion. In most of the aspects.

Targetable legiondaries are actually like end patch legiondaries and that was pretty nice.
And i'd wait for alpha/beta to judge the soulbinds really, if they have interesting and cool traits like the artifact weapons they can potentially be great.
The essence system is great too imo. if it would have been account wide from the start..

If SL can combine the best of Legion and BfA while shuting down the bad aspects it will be a great expansion, so let's better hope for that..

[Polarthief]

To me, BfA is almost exactly the same as Legion.

It's the same focus on world quests. One daily quest with bigger reward etc.

It's the same focus on M+. The same key system, and endless scaling of dungeons in a "modern" GOGOGO AoE fashion.

It's the same Raiding system. 4 difficulties. LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic.

It's the same questing system.

It's the same AP grind.

It's the same Titanforging system.

It's actually a bit BETTER system than the "no gear should matter in PvP", "100% random garbage ilvl PvP gear" PvP system we had in Legion.

To me, it seems like the only reason people liked Legion was because of the transmogs on your cool weapons. And people seem salty that BfA don't have Class sets (another transmog argument). Is it really this easy to make you enjoy an expansion? Cool transmogs = good expansion?

No Azerite in Legion

No Essences in Legion

No Corruption (WAY worse than TF) in Legion

8.2 onward started ditching WQs for dailies. 8.3 took that to the extreme as we now have no WQs (besides the assaults themselves, but you still have to turn them in when completed!)

Stupidly better class design. Artifacts felt good. Azerite does not remotely fix the things they removed, neither Essences.

Legion also updated two mediocre systems, CMs and Dailies, into two much better systems, M+ and WQ, that will continue for expansions to come. Meanwhile, BfA added two systems of its own, WFs and IEs, that will not continue into the future and were both quite disliked too.

BfA also destroyed the point of Missions and they felt more pointless than ever whenever you were required to do them. They were an amazing source of gold for people who preferred waiting than actively doing anything for it (which even if the content was bad [which it wasn't], being subbed was paying for itself, and now it's most absolutely not).


You'd have to be insanely ignorant to think BfA was remotely as good. Content wasn't really the issue, though it didn't add anything new that people actually want to do, which was definitely a problem.

[Doffen]

You can name it as you like, but "legendary" in original sense lost it's meaning with free handouts.

I am naming it from what blizzard named it.

Yeah it's clear, shadowlands is way closer to BfA than legion. In most of the aspects.

Yeah, no. Why are you trying to spin everything as something akin to essences? You know essences we got now and how it is set up is a mini artifact weapon right? Soulbinds as well. Artifact weapon is the thing that made those. The trees are working like the artifact weapon. Why do you think they got that idea? Everything we see from Shadowlands originate from Legions content and system, just like essences.

Covenants = Class Hall
You will stay there when not out in the world
Will give you abilities like bodyguard/outdoor buffs like the follower system in Legion.
Gives you transmogs which you earn from content aka weapon skin and Class Hall set

Soulbinds = Artifact
Will give you a tree where you choose what you want to play with, as it was with the Artifact Weapon in the early stages. Devs said they liked the initial progression first where you got to choose if you wanted more AoE or ST damage for instance.
It will give you passives, while covenant will give you one ability, aka same as the active artifact weapon ability.

Torghast = Mage Tower
Mage Tower was a huge success which is why we get Visions now and Torghast later on.
It's obviously something more since you can do it in groups and will be the same challenge for all, while it will be ever changing so you'll get some replayability of it. One and the only major complaints about Mage Tower was that players wanted to do it more. It's obvious Mage Tower is why we get content like Horrific Vision and Torghast.

Legendary = Legiondairies
Devs have said they liked how gameplay affecting Legiondairies were, and that's what the player base have said as well. But the biggest complaint was obviously the randomness of the drop so they have both those in mind when they say stuff will be targetable, but also that you can get the effect you want that will affect gameplay.

We all know artifact was a failure.

Imagine writing that and believe it. It's why we got essences as a band aid. Devs(Ion) said they were very happy on how popular the Artifact weapon was, but it was completed to fast. Which means filling the weapon up was something that was done early on among the player base. Which should tell you that the grind in Legion was way faster done than what you makes it out to be. Them telling what they felt about the Artifact Weapon are reasons why we get Soulbinds in Shadowlands, and not gear with traits you have to regrind all the time. The proof is evidential, time to open your eyes.

[kaminaris]

Targetable legiondaries are actually like end patch legiondaries and that was pretty nice.
And i'd wait for alpha/beta to judge the soulbinds really, if they have interesting and cool traits like the artifact weapons they can potentially be great.
The essence system is great too imo. if it would have been account wide from the start..

If SL can combine the best of Legion and BfA while shuting down the bad aspects it will be a great expansion, so let's better hope for that..

Targettable legiondaries by last patch was like putting a bandaid over amputee leg that has already fully healed.
Think of it carefully. What is the point of having variety of legendaries if everyone will just pick the same - bis. And after that they will get others in exact same order.
Because guide on icy veins says so and sims says so. It would be much better if legendaries were exactly equal in terms of dps output and just gave you some utility.
This might be as well just added as a talent, that you need to earn. And it would be even better since it won't take up gear slot.

Soulbind are not like artifact weapon traits. They are generic, not spec specific. They are not attached to equipment, and you cannot just activate them all.
They are like mini generic talent trees.
They may turn like a good concept unless blizzard fucks it up and introduces some broken ones. Like the ones they showed - you have more crit if percentage of your hp is higher than target hp - that looks like must have for raids since boss is usually lower percent than you.
Ultimately people are going to pick simply what is "best".

As long as we don't get that shit rng we had with legiondaries I would be ok with it. And not too much farming like in BfA.

- - - Updated - - -

I am naming it from what blizzard named it.

Yeah it's clear, shadowlands is way closer to BfA than legion. In most of the aspects.
Yeah, no. Why are you trying to spin everything as something akin to essences? You know essences we got now and how it is set up is a mini artifact weapon right? Soulbinds as well. Artifact weapon is the thing that made those. The trees are working like the artifact weapon. Why do you think they got that idea? Everything we see from Shadowlands originate from Legions content and system:

No, biggest and most distinguishable difference between artifact and neck (and essences) is that neck is not all-powerful and it is actually generic, which is a huge improvement. Once it's gone, you won't feel like important part of your class is gone.

Covenants = Class Hall
You will stay there when not out in the world
Will give you abilities like bodyguard/outdoor buffs like the follower system in Legion.
Gives you transmogs which you earn from content aka weapon skin and Class Hall set

Wrong, covenants are just factions and you will stay in the city. Bodyguard system originated from WoD and garrison. So it will be closer to 4 garrisons not owned by you. Order halls were all-about class. Covenants are about themselves, not tied to your class in any way - since any class can pick any covenant. You could not pick hunter order hall if you were not a hunter.
Convenants = Faction + Garrison

Soulbinds = Artifact
Will give you a tree where you choose what you want to play with, as it was with the Artifact Weapon in the early stages. Devs said they liked the initial progression first where you got to choose if you wanted more AoE or ST damage for instance.
It will give you passives, while covenant will give you one ability, aka same as the active artifact weapon ability.

Nope, not even close. Not tied to any gear, not fully unlockable, generic not class specific.
Soulbinds = talent trees, more generic

Torghast = Mage Tower
Mage Tower was a huge success which is why we get Visions now and Torghast later on.
It's obviously something more since you can do it in groups and will be the same challenge for all, while it will be ever changing so you'll get some replayability of it. One and the only major complaints about Mage Tower was that players wanted to do it more. It's obvious Mage Tower is why we get content like Horrific Vision and Torghast.

Ohhhhh please that made me laugh.
Torghast = horrific visions and a mix of some other stuff but mostly horrific vision next iteration

Mage tower was purely solo, one time challenge that was irrelevant in terms of character power just purely cosmetic.
Thorgast is expansion feature, grindable, scales from 1-5 players, and can give you real power to your character.
Fundamental difference.

Legendary = Legiondairies
Devs have said they liked how gameplay affecting Legiondairies were, and that's what the player base have said as well. But the biggest complaint was obviously the randomness of the drop so they have both those in mind when they say stuff will be targetable, but also that you can get the effect you want that will affect gameplay.

And that randomness totally killed it.

Imagine writing that and believe it. It's why we hot essences as a band aid. Devs(Ion) saod they were very happy on how popular the Artifact weapon was, but it was completed to fast. Which means filling the weapon up was something that was done early on among the player base. Which should tell you that the grind in Legion was way faster done than what you makes it out to be. Them telling what they felt about the Artifact Weapon are reasons why we get Soulbinds in Shadowlands, and not gear with traits you have to regrind all the time. The proof is evidential, time to open your eyes.

Devs have also said they are very happy how corruption gear turned out, they were also very happy with a lot of their decisions, and guess what? They admitted failing players with legiondaries. They openly apologized for it. Also they admitted they are not happy with tier sets.
If they were so happy with artifact weapon why we got neck instead? Which is basically imo - THE correct approach to artifact.

[magicaldandruff]

Legion was the first genuine taste of "Look at all this cool shit you've never seen in WoW before!" and BfA just had too big of a legacy to live up to peoples' expectations. All that re-hashed content...smh

Netherlight crucible > Azerite traits
Artifact weapon > Heart of Azeroth
Heroic scenarios > Island expeditions
MoP legendary cloaks > Wrathion cloak

At least each expansion had their own little gimmicks (arena/resilence, valor points/badges, reforging stats, glyphs, challenge mode) but BfA just feels like a big bag of old tricks.

[Doffen]

Ohhhhh please that made me laugh.
Torghast = horrific visions and a mix of some other stuff but mostly horrific vision next iteration

Mage tower was purely solo, one time challenge that was irrelevant in terms of character power just purely cosmetic.
Thorgast is expansion feature, grindable, scales from 1-5 players, and can give you real power to your character.
Fundamental difference.

Not gonna reply to the others since you are so wrong. But this one is funny indeed, since you can't even see that the Mage Tower and HV/Torghast is the same kind of thing. It's the fundamentals which is the point. For the rest of the system/contents as well. But I didn't really expect you to really want to understand this, but I thought I would give it a try. Mage Tower/HV/Torghast are content that are challenging and depends on both skill and slowly progressing your character. You can't do Mage Tower yet? Let's try in 1 month when you power up through the artifact(which was connected to the mage tower) It's the same for HV and most likely Torghast after how they described it.

The fundament is built on Legion's iteration of challenging solo content. You can do HV/Torghast solo as well. But now also with a group if you like. And that's the continuation of that particular content. You probably think that we would have gotten HV if Mage Tower was a failure like Islands. Which is false. That's why we get a continuation of that content, but Islands are gone.

You talk about the neck? What did the neck do? Nothing but something you would grind over and over to learn the same azerite traits over and over. They went out and said that essences are the band-aid for that system. And still you go and say its the correct approach to artifact? You should read this thread, artifact weapon is over and over repeated as the good parts of Legion. Maybe read and learn from it, that your flawed definition of good is just a wrong one and completely scrapped by the devs while they learned from the mistake and made the neck a small scaled artifact weapon.

[Alkizon]

Well... I didn't say that
(at least about Legion)

[Kalisandra]

BfA also destroyed the point of Missions and they felt more pointless than ever whenever you were required to do them. They were an amazing source of gold for people who preferred waiting than actively doing anything for it (which even if the content was bad [which it wasn't], being subbed was paying for itself, and now it's most absolutely not).

They, and garrisons before them, were a great reason to level up some alts, and play them enough to be able to run missions on them (that was something they messed up with Garrisons, where the missions paid for new missions, meaning your alts never had to do anything once the garrison was up and running). There's nothing wrong with people being able to make gold by levelling alts rather than whatever other gold farming systems you have in game.

You'd have to be insanely ignorant to think BfA was remotely as good. Content wasn't really the issue, though it didn't add anything new that people actually want to do, which was definitely a problem.

Two things I liked about BfA: Levelling (though Drustvar is the only zone I don't mind doing over on alts). Boralus - wandering round, looking in everywhere was fun, with lots of little shops and stuff (not something that holds interest long-term).

Things that annoy me all the time: The Horde city, with stuff spread out all over the place. Just about everything else as well.

[kaminaris]

Not gonna reply to the others since you are so wrong. But this one is funny indeed, since you can't even see that the Mage Tower and HV/Torghast is the same kind of thing. It's the fundamentals which is the point. For the rest of the system/contents as well. But I didn't really expect you to really want to understand this, but I thought I would give it a try. Mage Tower/HV/Torghast are content that are challenging and depends on both skill and slowly progressing your character. You can't do Mage Tower yet? Let's try in 1 month when you power up through the artifact(which was connected to the mage tower) It's the same for HV and most likely Torghast after how they described it.

The fundament is built on Legion's iteration of challenging solo content. You can do HV/Torghast solo as well. But now also with a group if you like. And that's the continuation of that particular content. You probably think that we would have gotten HV if Mage Tower was a failure like Islands. Which is false. That's why we get a continuation of that content, but Islands are gone.

You talk about the neck? What did the neck do? Nothing but something you would grind over and over to learn the same azerite traits over and over. They went out and said that essences are the band-aid for that system. And still you go and say its the correct approach to artifact? You should read this thread, artifact weapon is over and over repeated as the good parts of Legion. Maybe read and learn from it, that your flawed definition of good is just a wrong one and completely scrapped by the devs while they learned from the mistake and made the neck a small scaled artifact weapon.

It's not the same kind of thing, good lord. When something is fundamentally different in practically ALL of the aspects then it's simply a different feature.

Going with your logic of progressing character, mage tower/hv/tg is the same as M+. Can't do +15 yet? Progress your character and try again.
Oh and don't tell me Mythic plus is not soloable becuse it is! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71w1vEz0wro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=512f9MRVGKU

That fundament has nothing to do with legion iterations. Nothing. They are fundamentally different features.

And that is percisely why neck is far superior than artifact weapon. And no, you didn't need to grind anything as I never did any grind and still could unlock all major and minor traits no matter what azerite I upgraded. Yes that is correct approach. It would be absolutely perfect if azerite gear did not require any neck level (and it practically didnt).

No I should not read other people opinions because they don't matter to me at all. Current iteration is definitely the best one for me. Artifact weapon was garbage, that is why it god severely reduced in BfA and doesn't seems like we are getting any artifact in SL which is even better.

If we have to get artifact -> it should be insignificant so grind doesn't feel mandatory.
If we don't -> then problem doesn't exist anyways.

[sam86]

Dungeons in legion were boring meatgrinder. I cannot comprehend why would anyone think legion dungeons were even remotely close to being good, not to mention being better than BfA ones lol.

how are they bad? i loved them
maybe u grinded way too hard AP and (of course) u hate them for doing Maw of Souls 1502 daily ?

[Ermelloth]

What was good in Legion and lacked in BFA, imho, is:

1. Suramar and all related to it;
2. Artifact Weapons and Order Halls;
3. PvP templates

[kaminaris]

how are they bad? i loved them
maybe u grinded way too hard AP and (of course) u hate them for doing Maw of Souls 1502 daily ?

Because trash was braindead without any mechanics.

[FuxieDK]

What was good in Legion and lacked in BFA, imho, is:

1. Suramar and all related to it;
2. Artifact Weapons and Order Halls;
3. PvP templates

IMO, none of it added anything positive to Legion.

1. Suramar was a crappy blue zone... Blue in color and blue in mood.
2. Artifact weapons were boring, because you were stuck with the same weapon for an entire expansion and Order Halls didn't add anything an NPC in Dalaran couldn't have done
3. PvP is the bane on ANY PvE game.

[Martymark]

Horde player who cares about the story here.

In Legion the Horde was merely ignored.

In BFA Horde were the trash mobs everyone was supposed to hate and want dead, even by Horde players.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I've long questioned why people think Legion was so good when honestly I found it rather stale.

I think the reason is actually Warlords of Draenor. When you come after the worst expansion in the game's history, even a stale, milquetoast expansion seems better by comparison. You'll probably see a similar reaction to Shadowlands where "sure it's purely average but after the train wreck that was BFA, this is pretty good!"

[Godric]

Focus on class identity. Fun as fuck legendaries despite whiners. Wonderful expansion despite Argus.

[iinverse]

Artifact weapons were boring, because you were stuck with the same weapon for an entire expansion

In this case 99% of weapons is boring, because its just stat stick without any cool abilities or effects.

[Segus1992]

Essences, Azerite Armor and Blizzard have proved their Alliance bias beyond any doubts, is what makes BfA bad.

So your criteria for what makes BfA bad is that you think Blizzard cares more about Alliance than Horde? Damn, life must be simple to be that simple.

[Takatin]

Let's not overlook the difference between cool, powerful weapons that you kept all expansion versus... necklaces.

exactly my man...the entire "vocal" community that influenced BFA through complaints about Legion had an impact...Blizzard wanted their RNG...but not in the form of leggos(i preferred that, a random legendary that massively influenced your rotation and playstyle), instead they gave everyone the no RNG azerite gear(yay all flat buffs to my spells, omg so cool i get to use the same talents and rotation for 2 years) and to top it off no point in raiding for cool set bonus gear, instead we have azerite gear with BETTER flat buffs. BFA blew my mind and made me remember WoD(a well polished turd).