Main Scenario Quest system like in FFXIV
The problem is that WoW evolves from WCIII, although they were made concurrently. WC3 had some faction conflict, like Thrall vs. Proudmoore, but mostly it was Burning Legion and in Frozen Throne, the LK. Which are morally black and white, full evil villains.
And it didn't stop having morally black and white, evil villains.
Even Illidan was devolved into a mustache-twirling villain. Same with Kael'thas.
Of course. OP's proposition is silly.
Garrosh does have one redeeming quality; he's a great villain. However, his influence has wreaked irrepairable damage by escalating the faction conflict nonsense and by splintering the horde player base into two camps. Then they repeated that with Sylvanas. Cue most of the arguments that occur on this forum.
He was definitely a better villain than Sylvanas. I felt more emotion for him during his fight with Thrall than I did for Sylvanas in the entirety of Legion and BfA. Also his actions made a lot more sense than Sylvanas'. Sylvanas literally had no reason to start the war, whereas with Garrosh you can at least argue that he was forced to do so because his people were literally dying in the streets.
It wasn't just world domination. Maybe in the old lore. Chronicles explained that Lich King wanted to conquer the world so that he could protect it against the Legion and the Old Gods. Also he wanted to remake the world into a paradise where there are no more wars and no more injustice, which ties back to the idea that Arthas originally had good intentions but was misguided. Plus he had dreams of world domination or anyway world apocalypse since WC3. Remember what he said after he killed Terenas? "And from the ashes shall arise a new order that will shake the very foundations of the world". He was set up as a world-ending threat long before WotLK.
I also don't see what the problem is, it's just natural that villains get stronger and stronger with each expansion. Especially in a story like WoW that is centered around fighting enemy bosses. MoP pretty much reset the story anyway, because all the villains between Deathwing and Garrosh were confined to Pandaria (even Sha-empowered Garrosh was an ant compared to Deathwing).
Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-09 at 09:03 PM.
It didn't have to be like that though, and World of Warcraft was an opportunity for a real fresh start. WC3 happened, apocalyptic war that threatens the whole world, but Vanilla starts in the aftermath of all of that. They could have kept the story-scope scaled down such that no conflict would ever endanger the world like the Burning Legion did. I think TBC was good in that many of their villains were localized threats, except for KJ at the Sunwell. But WOTLK fucked up and made it so that if the LK wasn't stopped, he'd conquer the whole world. But world domination is such a lazy motivation that doesn't even fit Arthas' character at all. It could have started with a Scourge invasion of Lordaeron and Stormwind as Arthas tries to conquer the Human Kingdoms. And then we beat him back into Northrend and the story goes on. It becomes a story about bringing this asshole to justice instead of merely preventing an undead apocalypse.
Deathwing literally blowing up the world with his nuke-bod was truly the worst and the laziest though.
Fair enough about Cromush, though without the orc superiority angle you lose significant chunks of Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria.
But Garrosh's role was possible because he was Warchief, and he gained the mantle almost solely because of his relation to Grom. Take that away, and you just have another Putress or Krom'gar.
That's all assuming WoW didn't go from expansion to expansion bumbling their way forward without a true vision for the story just like the "Trilogy" of Star Wars 7, 8 and 9 they had no Idea how the story would go forward years ahead. Imean just during Wrath's launch people seeing Wrathgate cinematic made them go "maybe we should change the ending of the expansion entirely" and they did that alot, to their defence they listen to players but that doesn't mean always listen to us especially the vocal minority like the one on MMO-Champ and other sites.
The only time as far as I'm aware they had a coherent narrative was MoP with Garrosh being the big baddie at the end, and then they fudged up with Grom supposedly being the endboss of the expansion again until they changed It to pre-introduce the Legion Invasion of Azeroth and screw up the lore with Archimonde showing up and devaluating everything we've done in Warcraft 3 and Introducing the worst gaming systems possible in Legion. I don't care we had pretty weapons, 1 out of 20 positives Is still 19 negatives.
Permabanned on WoW since April 14th 2015, main acc I had since vanilla gone and trashed for no good reason, 6+ years later still banned with more appeals resulting in my BATTLENET games being suspended for a month eachtime I try making TICKETS because I'm asking for help with the perma ban. Blizzard has stopped caring for their first veteran players and would rather we leave, considering the Lawsuit, can you afford to keep peps banned even for so long under questionable circumstances?
It looks good on paper but it is the details that matter:
- how to make MoP without Garrosh?
- how would you change TBC?
- how would Legion feel different enough from TBC?
On top of that, he's a soldier. "The Old Soldier." He's not a leader. We see that as part of his BFA arc, where he's being given the opportunity to truly be out from under a warchief and make his own decisions, and even being expected to lead the forces against Sylvanas and potentially be the next warchief, which he struggles with. That's a big part of his arc, and part of what made him the right choice for our main relatable character to the PC.
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-no idea, and I'm only just realizing how wonky trying to jam Saurfang in there would be.
-A more clear storyline of us believing Illidan has gone rogue on us only come to find out later in the expansion that was the Legion luring us into Outland, not his forces invading Azeroth. (All these demons look the same to me!) Vashj escapes after ominously hinting at this in her boss dialogue, and Kael'thas still goes crazy to keep that the same. Top it off with a humbling beating of Illidan before he reveals his plans and leaves for Azeroth, having still accomplished freeing Outland of him.
-On reflection not all that much of it was fighting the Burning Legion, BC was kind of all over. We went to Karazhan at one point. I don't think it'd be too bad. Mostly I just salivate at the thought of what Outland could've looked like with modern graphics.
In hindsight it's rather hard to write an arc where we keep relatively close to the existing BC (freeing Outland from Illidan's tyranny and exploitation) without making it sound like WOD's original ending (Draenor is free! All is forgiven, Grom!).
Of course. Why would Saurfang even get the position of Warchief? Garrosh was the son of the most renowned hero in orcish history and took the merit for the Horde victory against the Lich King. That's why he was made Warchief.
But Saurfang? 0 reason to make him Warchief. He's not even a high-ranking member of the Horde, he's a strong soldier, but a soldier nonetheless. If Garrosh didn't exist, Thrall would have likely appointed either Vol'jin or Cairne as his successor. Or perhaps even Sylvanas, depends if Danuser was already working for Blizzard at that time.
Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-13 at 10:40 PM.
Blizzard had NO idea WoW would get as popular as it did. Back then, it was standard to release a game and then 2 xpacs. The natural expansions were Outland and Arthas. Outland was an obvious choice as the original plot was about Orcs from Outland invading Azeroth via the Dark Portal. Arthas was set to wrap up the trilogy as he was the most popular lore figure. Once WoW got huge, they had to scramble and start setting up more stuff.
But there was absolutely no way they were gonna hold off the Outland xpac for 5 years.
TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.
Didn't understand all of that but IMO there is too much content & too many expansions, too many raids per expansion & even more severe the fact that the xpak tales intertwine, there are 2 warchiefs in Orgrimmar atm for an e.g., make a sturdy game not a fragmented one.
Instead of expansion releases there could be 2 new bosses every 6 months & some minor new stuff.
Last edited by DookuDookuTree; 2020-03-17 at 10:28 PM.
Do you think its only been a year or 2 after WC3? According to the official timeline it's been at least 5 years since the end of Frozen Throne and the beginning of Wrath. According to this, Arthas claimed the Helm of Domination in the year 22 and we are in the year 33, with Legion taking place in year 32. So they had 10 years to regroup to attack Azeroth again. Hell at this point, Bolvar has been LK longer than Arthas was.
The Horde and Alliance invade the Shadowlands to stop the global threat of the Jailer.
TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.
Changing the order of expansions wouldn't make the writing team any more or less skilled. You can't salvage the bad parts of WoW's story just by shuffling around the order of some expansions.
Yeah, it's nice to see someone remembers. Blizzard were absolutely blown away when they sold 250k copies virtually instantly with WoW, and scrambled to print/make more copies and scale up their server architecture and so on to cope with the massive and ongoing demand. They were on the back foot for much of Vanilla as a result (hell, it took nearly 11 months to clear up the "loot scoot").
They were expecting a sub-EverQuest level of success, probably more in the DAoC range (i.e. 200k to 500k subs). A game that would be popular, and likely gradually sell millions of copies, but not instantly explode. And at the start, as they explained quite a few times, their content pipeline was even longer than it is now. Stuff had to be planned well in advance, and it's likely that they had the first two expansions sketched out, at least in the broadest terms (i.e. where they were set), either by launch or in the first year or so of WoW. I agree that they probably thought they would do a couple of expansions and then didn't have detailed plans. I suspect they thought the game would go into a slower kind of development after that, possibly with a smaller team (IIRC, they did indeed shrink the team with Cata and didn't re-grow it until they started developing Legion).