If Horrific Visions is anything to go by, Torghast is DOA

[Wheeler]

Visions are already stale to me, but I don't do them in groups.

I find them boring and repetitive (Having to run the same vision 3-4 times in a row to upgrade the cloak? Yikes).

I think the timer is unnecessary, and would much rather prefer a difficulty spike as opposed to a timer.

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

Good thing people really liked Vissions

[vsb]

I love horrific visions idea. What i don't like about them is:

1. Timer. I hate timers. I love to move slowly and carefully. I love to be able to take a break in between if I want so.
2. Debuffs. Blizzard are masters of unenjoyable debuffs. Why do I have to suffer? Why not buffs instead?
3. Not enough content. Reused cities, reused models, it's getting old too fast. I'm at level 13 cloak and I already saw every location and every boss.
4. Very few tactics. It's even simpler than dungeons.

I hope that Torghast will fix those bullets.

[Sithalos]

I love when people complain about systems we know literally nothing about.

[razorpax]

I love horrific visions idea. What i don't like about them is:

1. Timer. I hate timers. I love to move slowly and carefully. I love to be able to take a break in between if I want so.
2. Debuffs. Blizzard are masters of unenjoyable debuffs. Why do I have to suffer? Why not buffs instead?
3. Not enough content. Reused cities, reused models, it's getting old too fast. I'm at level 13 cloak and I already saw every location and every boss.
4. Very few tactics. It's even simpler than dungeons.

I hope that Torghast will fix those bullets.

well from what we know

1. no timer
2. i mean you can go find buffs in visions but each level of the tower is supposed to give you a new buff
3. constantly different so floor 5 might have a healing debuff mob and a few summoners this time but next time it will have 2 tank mobs and a healer with a new layout
4. see 3

its looking good but we need the alpha soon

[DemonDays]

I don't really get why blizzard clings to the failed scenario model. The only time the community seems to like them are for personal challenges like the mage tower and leggos.

Because they want to create endlessly repeatable content with minimal effort and time investment on their part.

They tried this with Islands but failed miserably.

This is exactly why Mythic+ exists now.


Think of this. It's a tower that has the same assets on every level. Just with different mobs and bosses. Minimal effort.

[Schizoide]

Yes of course that is the goal. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't be fun, D3 rifts were fine.

[tru]

Yes of course that is the goal. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't be fun, D3 rifts were fine.

D3 at least had seasons.... For whatever that was worth. But how many times do you run a rift before that just gets stale . I mean I ran s* tons back in like s9 maybe... Haven't touched the game since.

And what's the reward supposed to be? Skins? Mandatory way to level generic d3 paragon system? This will be the third xpac that's had that now. Why can't they just go back to the old model of things... When the game was good and they had a LOT more subs. Business 101 and they wouldn't have to bandaid fix patch and catch up system upon catch-up.

Sounds about as fun as withered army training...

[Schizoide]

I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content either. Hand-crafted is many orders of magnitude better. But the tower is in addition to all the stuff generally in a WoW expansion, it doesn't replace dungeons and raids, so I keep an open mind.

[Boricha]

My hope is that Torghast won't be artificially timed, so you only get kicked out if you die and can't self-rez. I want it to have rooms with challenging mobs/trash packs that you plan your way through and eventually leads up to Mage Tower style bosses. Almost like Darkest Dungeon. If it's just a time-gated tower that you speedrun with weird affixes, then I won't enjoy it.

[dcc626]

Imagine crying about WoW on forums only to then turn around and give Blizzard Money to play the game you hate anyway.

its ok. most people hate themselves more than they hate blizz. it all makes sense.

[Eurhetemec]

My hope is that Torghast won't be artificially timed

They've specifically said it won't be, so I'd be shocked if it turned out that it was.

Think of this. It's a tower that has the same assets on every level. Just with different mobs and bosses. Minimal effort.

I really doubt it'll have the same assets on every level. That just seems extremely unlikely.

[kamuimac]

its ok. most people hate themselves more than they hate blizz. it all makes sense.

thats textbook addiction symptoms.

[chiddie]

Depends on how you define "artificially timed". There is ZERO chance you can beat it on day 1, so ofc somebody will call it "artificially timed" or "timegated" - not least because it is supposed to be a feature that lasts over the whole x-pac

Even if it somehow magically works out to the point that you can keep pushing it over the time of the entire expansion and get (made up shit coming in as IDK the SL ilvs) ilv 500 in patch 9.0.ilv 550 gear in patch 9.1, ilv 600 gear in 9.2 and ilv 660 gear in 9.3 by further expanding and pushing ahead....somebody is gonna call it a time gate (also "no content")

Yeah, brace yourselves for the usual "worst feature ever" threads - just like I don't even brace myself anymore for the inevitable "duh, you guys excuse everything Blizzard does" comments (putting it mildly as those comments in reality include explicit sexual comments refer to male sexual reproductive organs)

HV are a good example of artificial timed content.

They are horrific in the sense that idea is horrific.

[kamuimac]

Well...I like doing them...and while I started out being frustrated (and it still frustrates me on alts doing them on a low cloak level - I have enjoed them week after week on my main growing stronger by doing tasks that eventually empower me.) - so opinions and all...which is fair.

But I also love to hear suggestions of what kind of content ppl like you enjoy and what would keep you entertained. What makes you happy in an MMO? I doubt it would be any challenge that you can complete on day 1....so there needs to be a mechanic that entices you to come back...and try again...and again.

So...yeah...what is your idea of a "not artificially timed content" that you would enjoy? I favour examples from WoW in the past, as I mostly play that game, but honestly...ANY MMORPG out there ...just to give me an idea of what you folks like and what we could suggest to devs to implement.

well mmorpgs are "time gated " by their nature.

problem is that historicaly that gate was either gear or level

we have here clash of 2 mentalities - typical mmorpg and arpg.

i have been saying for years that a lot of people who play wow dont want to play mmorpg - they want extremly chalenging instanced arpg symulator.

and want to turn wow into such .

[deenman]

D3 at least had seasons.... For whatever that was worth. But how many times do you run a rift before that just gets stale . I mean I ran s* tons back in like s9 maybe... Haven't touched the game since.

And what's the reward supposed to be? Skins? Mandatory way to level generic d3 paragon system? This will be the third xpac that's had that now. Why can't they just go back to the old model of things... When the game was good and they had a LOT more subs. Business 101 and they wouldn't have to bandaid fix patch and catch up system upon catch-up.

Sounds about as fun as withered army training...

they did go back to the old model,it was called wod and had the worst sub drops lol,meanwile bfa had record sales

[VinceVega]

Depends on how you define "artificially timed". There is ZERO chance you can beat it on day 1, so ofc somebody will call it "artificially timed" or "timegated" - not least because it is supposed to be a feature that lasts over the whole x-pac

Even if it somehow magically works out to the point that you can keep pushing it over the time of the entire expansion and get (made up shit coming in as IDK the SL ilvs) ilv 500 in patch 9.0.ilv 550 gear in patch 9.1, ilv 600 gear in 9.2 and ilv 660 gear in 9.3 by further expanding and pushing ahead....somebody is gonna call it a time gate (also "no content")

Yeah, brace yourselves for the usual "worst feature ever" threads - just like I don't even brace myself anymore for the inevitable "duh, you guys excuse everything Blizzard does" comments (putting it mildly as those comments in reality include explicit sexual comments refer to male sexual reproductive organs)

The Buzzword of the hour... Time gate...

Blizz can do what they want, everything is timegate for some.

Sometimes i think the only way for Blizz to win with these people is to give them max level gear instant, have them not level anything, kill every rep faction and guide them into PVP elite and/or mythic endboss kills on day one. In other words: The want to play overwatch in a fantasy setting.

[chiddie]

Well...I like doing them...and while I started out being frustrated (and it still frustrates me on alts doing them on a low cloak level - I have enjoed them week after week on my main growing stronger by doing tasks that eventually empower me.) - so opinions and all...which is fair.

But I also love to hear suggestions of what kind of content ppl like you enjoy and what would keep you entertained. What makes you happy in an MMO? I doubt it would be any challenge that you can complete on day 1....so there needs to be a mechanic that entices you to come back...and try again...and again.

So...yeah...what is your idea of a "not artificially timed content" that you would enjoy? I favour examples from WoW in the past, as I mostly play that game, but honestly...ANY MMORPG out there ...just to give me an idea of what you folks like and what we could suggest to devs to implement.

Do you know why I don’t enjoy visions or similar content? Because they are 25% skill based and 75% class/gear/research_tree based.

This week with my blood dk I suddenly passed from struggling to do 5/5 no mask to do 5/5 1 mask in a breeze. “You have improved your gameplay!”. No. I do the same things as before but I simply unlocked the last research talent and upgraded cloak to level 12 (or 13).

Am I more skilled? Nope. I have simply better insanity res. I will soon hit another wall because I have almost no corrupted gear so I won’t be able to do enough damage to complete 3+ masked runs for a while and again, when I’ll overcome them, it will be again because of gear.

Now, given that skill has nothing to do with this kind of progression, can I at least do things at my own pace?

The only suggestion I can give is “don’t use timers”. Everything is better than timers.

[Eazy]

We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers.

Seriously don't believe it. At least not everything.

This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

I think that's obvious. HV is just a test, something to tune-up Torghast.

Though I don't think Torghast will be timed(or have sanity)?

Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

They're seriously stripping the MMO from WoW. In the next expansion we will be able to solo-queue in raids and do them.

Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

I got bored also, but that's because I've done 5 masks already. Torghast isn't meant to last for one patch(just as HV is), it'll probably have higher difficult(and better reward) each time the new patch hits live. It'll be something like doing M+ once a week for a reward.

From what I understand, this Torghast system is the very core of the whole expansion. It's the Artifact Weapons of Shadowlands. It's the Island Expedition / Heart of Azeroth of Shadowlands. It's the place to get your transmogs, the place to get your mounts, the place to spend several hours every week.

I wouldn' seriously compare Artifact Weapons to Islands, that's not right.
Anyway, I didn't see any mounts/t-mogs being mentioned.

From my standpoint, if I feel like I have to do these, and I also feel inefficient as a Resto Shaman in there. Then, they try to tell me to "just respec or find a group", I'm out. Not only from the system, but from the entire expansion spider web of systems.

I agree here, the system that only a few classes enjoy is bad(e.g. not healers).

If people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months, how is Torghast supposed to last an entire expansion?

^see above

They've specifically said it won't be, so I'd be shocked if it turned out that it was.

They also said that we will be able to focus on each legendary we wanted in Legion...

[Eurhetemec]

Seriously don't believe it. At least not everything.

What do you mean by "not everything"? Because it's definitely true that they're working on stuff, at least conceptually, and probably to some extent content-wise, two expansions out, but obviously not every element of the expansions are pinned down and it's possible that very major changes can happen during actual development. It's been this way since literally before WoW came out.

They also said that we will be able to focus on each legendary we wanted in Legion...

Hahahaha okay yes it is possible they're lying but I doubt it.


@det Re: artificially timed, I took that to mean like Sanity in Visions, not like time-gating in Visions (i.e. you could only get so far initially). Blizzard have said there won't be a timer mechanism like Sanity. There's zero possibility you'll be able to "maximum complete" The Maw on day 1. That's obviously insane, and like expecting SL to launch will all the raid tiers or something. Anyone expecting that is an unreasonable and unrealistic person, frankly. So yeah people will claim it's time-gated, but if raid tiers were a new thing, people would claim they were time-gated, they only don't because they're a legacy thing.

There will undoubtedly be some kind of mechanism whereby either extra levels to the tower are made accessible or increased difficulty for the tower is made accessible over time, probably in time with M+/PvP seasons. They've said the tower will change on I think it was a week-by-week basis too, presumably like M+.