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  1. #221
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content either. Hand-crafted is many orders of magnitude better. But the tower is in addition to all the stuff generally in a WoW expansion, it doesn't replace dungeons and raids, so I keep an open mind.
    It's a ripoff of Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High in FFXIV. The only difference is, in FFXIV, it's very much a side/optional thing (it's mostly used to level alts). The way FFXIV works is, there are a LOT of side/optional things, and you can pretty much choose what you like doing, and you have PLENTY of choices.

    Blizzard is not like that. They believe in "forcing" people to do "everything". They have the mindset of "we spent good money making all this content, so you are going to do every bit of it and like it, because we know what's fun". So they will design the systems to "require" people to do everything. You can bet that Torghast will be absolutely forced, the same way dailies were in MOP, the same way the garrisons were in WOD. I personally quit WOW in Oct 2017 and have no plans to ever return (because Blizzard is no longer a company that I am ok with giving money to), so this won't affect me, but I played WOW for long enough to be able to tell what they will do when a "feature" of an expansion is marketed so heavily.

  2. #222
    They describe Tourghast as an Endless Dungeon. They're probably building it to be more similar to Mythic Plus, which lasts people as renewable content through expansions now.

  3. #223
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Source of that?
    Source of which bit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I just don't believe that they were thinking about Azerite Islands for 2 expansions(and if they seriously did then fuck them for being lazy asses), same for Dragon Soul, it just felt like someone didn't have any resources or was really uninspired.
    Dragon Soul, given the massive complexity of what they did, as hard as it might have sucked, and the huge, world-altering implications, and so on, was definitely planned an extremely long way out. Just because something sucks or is boring, doesn't mean it didn't take a long time to do (I mean, just look at the dev cycles of most MMOs lol - years and years to make utterly tedious content that makes WoW look like Devil May Cry or something). I don't think it was "uninspired", either, just like the rest of Cataclysm, "a fucking terrible idea". Cataclysm is a giant pile of bad ideas on top of a fundamentally good one (re-vamp the old world), and even that good idea they implemented in the dumbest long-term way possible. The original old world was kind of timeless, and it made sense for it to still be the way it was as you leveled. Cataclysm stuck the entire old world into a very specific period of a few days or weeks, which was a completely insane thing to do. I genuinely believe that the people who directed Cataclysm were on serious amounts of coke (LSD or weed would have produced something a lot nicer).

    Azerite islands are I suspect an evolution of ideas that had been bouncing around for a long time. I think Blizzard had been trying to work out some engaging small-group content, and trying to work on smarter NPCs/monsters for a while, and I also suspect the idea of islands appealed to them for a long time. But it all came together in a totally horrible way. The fact that they're all giant rush (because of the "competitive" design), use three players exactly, have terrible rewards (OOOOH Azerite everyone fucking loves more fucking Azerite), and you can't actually explore them or anything. I do agree they probably didn't have them planned specifically pre-BfA, but I have no doubt they had "small group" content on the cooker for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Torghast + HV? Sure thing. But everything? I'm not buying that.
    Yeah, I'm not saying everything. It's literally right there in the text you quoted! But something like Dragon Soul is a good example of something that was planned long-distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    It's a ripoff of Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High in FFXIV. The only difference is, in FFXIV, it's very much a side/optional thing (it's mostly used to level alts). The way FFXIV works is, there are a LOT of side/optional things, and you can pretty much choose what you like doing, and you have PLENTY of choices.
    Wow, no it isn't. This has been discussed at some length in another thread.

    If you want to say it's a rip-off of something, it's a rip-off of Dead Cells or Slay the Spire or something. Of progressive Roguelikes in general. It's a massively different design to PotD etc. and if you're probably going to back here complaining at huge length that the Maw is "not what I expected!" and claiming "Blizz lied" or the like, when in fact you just didn't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    Blizzard is not like that. They believe in "forcing" people to do "everything". They have the mindset of "we spent good money making all this content, so you are going to do every bit of it and like it, because we know what's fun". So they will design the systems to "require" people to do everything. You can bet that Torghast will be absolutely forced, the same way dailies were in MOP, the same way the garrisons were in WOD. I personally quit WOW in Oct 2017 and have no plans to ever return (because Blizzard is no longer a company that I am ok with giving money to), so this won't affect me, but I played WOW for long enough to be able to tell what they will do when a "feature" of an expansion is marketed so heavily.
    Why are you still posting here if you have no plans to return? At least the other people who compare here and spew out cynical nonsense admit that they will likely try SL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I don't want Torghast because it sounds way too similar to D3 rifts. I've played D3. I've played rifts. Years and years ago. They sucked. I don't want to see WoW go anywhere in that direction.
    It's amazing how good people are at misunderstanding what Blizzard have said. It's not timed, it's not a rush, and it's all about the randomised stuff you find which permanently alters that entire run.

    If you think that's D3 Rifts, you're a gaming illiterate. It's Dead Cells and games like that.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The main thing I hate about visions is the time limit (same thing i hate about M+). If Torghast doesn't have the timer, it might be fun.
    For me it's that you have limited attempts and you have to farm to get more. It means you can't lose yourself in the content.

    There was a time in my wow career where I spent hours in proving grounds trying to get the highest endless score I could. I didn't do it by watching videos (much), I just went in there and banged my head against the wall, attempt after attempt, fine tuning my strategy.

    For me, that's the best part of wow. With horrific visions you have very limited attempts and there's a very real penalty for failing because of it, so you can't have that experience if you want to max your character. This encourages people to play the game less and instead watch videos, research, etc. in order to maximize the extremely limited playing time they have.

    I'm new to visions - I've done like 5 or 6. I wasted at least 3 because I blatantly didn't know what I was doing and I try to do minimal research and figure things out on my own. There was the vision where I didn't reset my sanity and lost it before I could kill Thrall. Then there was the one where I did kill Thrall very early and realized that I had just wasted 2 sanity orbs. Then there was the one where I pulled too much trash at once and again, couldn't reset my sanity, so I didn't kill Thrall. All of these mistakes mean that my character will be less progressed 2 months from now that it would be if I had sat down and watched videos instead of playing the game. That's a problem.

    They figured out that limited attempts was bad in raiding about a decade ago. I don't understand why they keep bringing obviously failed designs back into the game.

    I would love visions if I could go in over and over, and at the end of the week my chest was based on my best run. That sounds awesome. But that's not what they are. Instead it's a couple of 10 minute bursts where you can't afford to make a mistake.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2020-03-29 at 06:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    For me it's that you have limited attempts and you have to farm to get more. It means you can't lose yourself in the content.

    There was a time in my wow career where I spent hours in proving grounds trying to get the highest endless score I could. I didn't do it by watching videos (much), I just went in there and banged my head against the wall, attempt after attempt, fine tuning my strategy.

    For me, that's the best part of wow. With horrific visions you have very limited attempts and there's a very real penalty for failing because of it, so you can't have that experience if you want to max your character. This encourages people to play the game less and instead watch videos, research, etc. in order to maximize the extremely limited playing time they have.

    I'm new to visions - I've done like 5 or 6. I wasted at least 3 because I blatantly didn't know what I was doing and I try to do minimal research and figure things out on my own. There was the vision where I didn't reset my sanity and lost it before I could kill Thrall. Then there was the one where I did kill Thrall very early and realized that I had just wasted 2 sanity orbs. Then there was the one where I pulled too much trash at once and again, couldn't reset my sanity, so I didn't kill Thrall. All of these mistakes mean that my character will be less progressed 2 months from now that it would be if I had sat down and watched videos instead of playing the game. That's a problem.

    They figured out that limited attempts was bad in raiding about a decade ago. I don't understand why they keep bringing obviously failed designs back into the game.

    I would love visions if I could go in over and over, and at the end of the week my chest was based on my best run. That sounds awesome. But that's not what they are. Instead it's a couple of 10 minute bursts where you can't afford to make a mistake.
    100% this. I pray Torghast doesn't require grinding garbage boring content that's boring day 1 and you have to grind it constantly like you do for visions right now. Visions are the best part of this really god awful patch, possibly the *only* thing good this patch brought (the raid's fine, but whatever it's a raid, it's expected). The dailies are so terrible though.

    I know it sounds silly but it's actually enjoyable to have solo content I can bash my head on again like Proving Grounds, Warlock Green Fire, Legion Mage Tower, etc. Bashing your head against a wall because 19 other idiots can't do a simple mechanic is annoying, but when it's just me, I know what I need to do to fine-tune my strat, and having a non-timed, endless, dungeon like this would be PHENOMENAL if I don't have to grind boring content that's also time-gated because "lel limited attempts".
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  6. #226
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    You simply have no idea how Torghast will be, none does.

    Not even open alpha is out yet.

    What we saw is all theories and paper.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    You simply have no idea how Torghast will be, none does.

    Not even open alpha is out yet.

    What we saw is all theories and paper.
    They are described as challengless grind content for people who want to progress without doing harder content that isn't all that inspiring.

    Raiders re torn between hoping they wont be required for progression and hoping they will be hard enough to make bank selling runs to terrible players for gold.

  8. #228
    The Lightbringer
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    Rifts in Diablo were good. Not amazing, not perfect but fun and repeatable. They work way fucking better than M+ does, that's for sure.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  9. #229
    Well, you say you despise M+ and that's quite a successful feature so your opinion doesn't seem to reflect what the majority finds enjoyable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    All of these mistakes mean that my character will be less progressed 2 months from now that it would be if I had sat down and watched videos instead of playing the game. That's a problem.
    No it doesn't. There's a cap exactly so you don't get "permanently behind". I swear, maybe there would be a lot less hate if people understood the systems instead of analyzing what they think is wrong with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Instead it's a couple of 10 minute bursts where you can't afford to make a mistake.
    I think I did 6 this week. In half of them I boosted someone who sat dead on the floor while I did the wings with several masks. Pretty sure you can afford a LOT of mistakes. People got scared the first run and didn't understand that it becomes more forgiving and easy the more time goes by. That it's SUPPOSED to be very hard at the start and you keep working on it so it gets easy

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Well, you say you despise M+ and that's quite a successful feature so your opinion doesn't seem to reflect what the majority finds enjoyable.
    Just because M+ are successfully (and I'm not disputing that) doesn't mean that the majority of players find them enjoyable. It's anecdotal, but most people I've talked to don't enjoy them, but some still run them for the rewards. There's a difference between participation and enjoyment, and even then, I'd be surprised if the majority of the player base runs M+; if there's evidence somewhere, I'd love to see it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I think I did 6 this week. In half of them I boosted someone who sat dead on the floor while I did the wings with several masks. Pretty sure you can afford a LOT of mistakes. People got scared the first run and didn't understand that it becomes more forgiving and easy the more time goes by. That it's SUPPOSED to be very hard at the start and you keep working on it so it gets easy
    Did they get credit for being dead on the floor? I thought people had to be alive for killing a wing boss in order to get credit, but I could be mistaken about that. Regardless, I do think people really think they're less forgiving than they actually are. I've failed a bunch of runs, was behind the cap for the first week, but I caught up on week 2, did my solo 5-mask runs before 15, and am right up next to the others. I now host runs for raid members who are behind to help them get their 15 cloaks. Overall I think it's a great system beside the time commitment required to get attempts.

  11. #231
    Hey guys I tried healing a dungeon on my ret paladin but its extremely low and inneficient! If blizzard keeps this up I think dungeons on shadowands might be dead on arrival.

  12. #232
    I like horrific visions, but not really keen about the farming entry fee. And the worst is playing it with Alts without Titanic Research levelled. It's fine to farm all of it on main char first but please for the love of Elune make any such thing in Thorgast account wide.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    The Buzzword of the hour... Time gate...

    Blizz can do what they want, everything is timegate for some.

    Sometimes i think the only way for Blizz to win with these people is to give them max level gear instant, have them not level anything, kill every rep faction and guide them into PVP elite and/or mythic endboss kills on day one. In other words: The want to play overwatch in a fantasy setting.
    imo better comaprison would be "they want to play LoL with gear progression system while in instances"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I like horrific visions, but not really keen about the farming entry fee. And the worst is playing it with Alts without Titanic Research levelled. It's fine to farm all of it on main char first but please for the love of Elune make any such thing in Thorgast account wide.
    problem is it doesnt work with this system being acount wide.

    because they on alt you would just walk in and start pushing masks imidiately .

    and be done in 1-2 evenings per toon .

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    imo better comaprison would be "they want to play LoL with gear progression system while in instances"

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    problem is it doesnt work with this system being acount wide.

    because they on alt you would just walk in and start pushing masks imidiately .

    and be done in 1-2 evenings per toon .
    But the Gear Progression is also unfair! Because poeple who can play better have better gear than me. I want Mythic+ without timer and Mythic raiding kicked from the game. The bad elitists who raid Mythic are the worst for the game! Just give me full Mythic Gear in the Mail each week.
    /ironyoff

  15. #235
    I don't really understand the comparison to torghast in the manner that torghast is the iterative successor to horrific visions.

    Torghast is a roguelike encounter with levels and buffs that change so frequently both try to try and week to week that no real gameplan can be made until your inside outside of enemies and buffs (as long as layouts are varied enough).

    Horrific visions are a set timed encounter with extremely minor changes such as buff locations,crystals,etc. With the most variation being a rotation system. This means strategies and game plans can be made to deal with the system, and the internal progression is a linear permanent tree.

    These two encounters are fundamentally different to where input on one system doesn't impact another. The tower can be a system that is iterated across the expansion with different mobs different buffs different layouts can be added because the content is supposed to be repeatable. Meanwhile the orgrimmar and stormwind encounters are completed, the challenges are beat the goal is achieved and all they can do is make a new encounter to beat, like a new raid. I think both are cool and both can be iterated on to where they both have a space, it's up to blizzard to make good content. Torghast I would be more worried cause there have been flaws with a lot of repeatable content in recent wow, where designing a set encounter has usually been done pretty well. I think the formulas are good this time, just down to execution.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    problem is it doesnt work with this system being acount wide.

    because they on alt you would just walk in and start pushing masks imidiately .

    and be done in 1-2 evenings per toon .
    And what exactly is the harm in that? We do all the farming once "experiencing the content" as it was meant to be. I see no reason to farm it again and again and again and again (let's face it, most of us have at least 3 max level Alts). So what if my Alt can start with full clears right away.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers. This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

    Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

    I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

    Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

    From what I understand, this Torghast system is the very core of the whole expansion. It's the Artifact Weapons of Shadowlands. It's the Island Expedition / Heart of Azeroth of Shadowlands. It's the place to get your transmogs, the place to get your mounts, the place to spend several hours every week.

    From my standpoint, if I feel like I have to do these, and I also feel inefficient as a Resto Shaman in there. Then, they try to tell me to "just respec or find a group", I'm out. Not only from the system, but from the entire expansion spider web of systems.

    If people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months, how is Torghast supposed to last an entire expansion?

    maybe you should check your iq first before judging challengig solo content because you go in there as a healer?

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    And what exactly is the harm in that? We do all the farming once "experiencing the content" as it was meant to be. I see no reason to farm it again and again and again and again (let's face it, most of us have at least 3 max level Alts). So what if my Alt can start with full clears right away.
    the harm is you are playing mmorpg. at least theoreticaly

    and all you people want is LoL/instance symulator.

  19. #239
    There is absolutely no way an MMO should have something like Torghast. That is not content an MMO would have. An MMO would be centered around large-scale events. Yet as we've seen with arenas, M+, IEs, Horrific Visions, and Torghast, Blizzard doesn't want to make an MMO. Warfronts were the only thing that even resembled MMO style content, but they made them so faceroll that its stupid.

    As I said before, the only reason to add this stuff is if you think your MMO is almost dead so you are creating stuff for tiny groups to do because there aren't going to be enough players for anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Well, you say you despise M+ and that's quite a successful feature so your opinion doesn't seem to reflect what the majority finds enjoyable
    There is NO WAY on earth you can call m+ a successful feature.

    1. Very few people play it.
    2. Sub numbers have collapsed since m+ was introduced.

    If you install raider.io addon and check your who list, almost nobody even has a score. Among those that DO have a score, most of them don't even play enough to know the mechanics. The m+ scene is pretty much barren. M+ is a dead concept. Its a total failure. At any given time, I might see 10 people with a high m+ score on a server.

    On a whim, I decided to count players logged into my server that were over 2k raider.io rating:

    paladin: 1
    demon hunter: 1
    hunter: 1
    mage: 1
    shaman: 3
    druid: 1
    death knight: 2
    monk: 6
    priest: 3
    warrior: 2
    warlock: 3

    24 players over 2k

    NONE were over 3k.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2020-03-30 at 03:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  20. #240
    I think it's irrelevant how good it is, just as with islands and warfronts.

    What is relevant are class design/gameplay and progression systems.

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