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  1. #21
    The problem is passing it. The current model isn't close to what needs to be done and I'm unsure of how much genuine political will there is to changing it with how much each party is funded from it.

  2. #22
    Having grown up in Wyoming and enjoying a single payer system for the previous 6 years the plan should be to get in the US but the fact of the matter is that Money talks in America period. I mean do people forget the May Day riots? America has been a very right wing nation and i do not see that changing, as a Muslim who experienced bigotry daily while i was in the states tells me that people would rather not have medical services if it meant the other did not get it either. Until the medicare for all people start donating more money then other lobbyists good luck.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Having grown up in Wyoming and enjoying a single payer system for the previous 6 years the plan should be to get in the US but the fact of the matter is that Money talks in America period. I mean do people forget the May Day riots? America has been a very right wing nation and i do not see that changing, as a Muslim who experienced bigotry daily while i was in the states tells me that people would rather not have medical services if it meant the other did not get it either. Until the medicare for all people start donating more money then other lobbyists good luck.
    i think it doesnt have so much to do with donations as much as the enourmous free media the "corporate establishments" recieve from the Television networks and cable networks. until there is more peopledriven media and/or publicly funded elections the establishment will always have the edge in elections.

    The funny thing is i saw a video about Biden shouting and more or less threatened to "take a voter outside and kick his ass" when arguing guncontrol eventhough he was actually right on the issue and the voter was wrong about what Biden had said. But thee was barely any negative coverage for Biden from that only "Biden is strong" and such. Dont try to tell me that Sanders would have gotten the same coverage if it had been him! They would have been screaming "Sanders is toxic and rude to voters of Michigan" all day everyday for weeks.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Deianeira View Post
    i think it doesnt have so much to do with donations as much as the enourmous free media the "corporate establishments" recieve from the Television networks and cable networks. until there is more peopledriven media and/or publicly funded elections the establishment will always have the edge in elections.

    The funny thing is i saw a video about Biden shouting and more or less threatened to "take a voter outside and kick his ass" when arguing guncontrol eventhough he was actually right on the issue and the voter was wrong about what Biden had said. But thee was barely any negative coverage for Biden from that only "Biden is strong" and such. Dont try to tell me that Sanders would have gotten the same coverage if it had been him! They would have been screaming "Sanders is toxic and rude to voters of Michigan" all day everyday for weeks.
    I agree but i still think that money talks first and foremost, its how opinions are changed in D.C. I am sure youtube and twitter videos have helped fuel alot of the populist movements but once legacy media gets more involved in those platforms with some dealings to their content tilted towards the top of search results etc the cycle will loop.

  5. #25
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Any social program that is paid for by involuntary taxes is inseperable from a liberty vs socialism debate.
    The phrase "involuntary taxes" is, itself, bullshit propaganda. Taxes are an obligation. And that's not relevant to whether the system you're in is capitalist or socialist. Or mercantilist, or mutualist, or whatever other economic system you want to talk about.

    BTW I'm not even trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't support universal healthcare, I've literally never done that. I'm just saying they shouldn't justify it for the wrong reasons such as "top economists said it's the best".
    That's one of the right reasons. So far, your only argument against that is "economics isn't science", which A> nobody ever claimed, and B> you've posted a whopping heap of anti-science stuff in the past.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    BTW I'm not even trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't support universal healthcare, I've literally never done that. I'm just saying they shouldn't justify it for the wrong reasons such as "top economists said it's the best".
    Holy FuckExpertOpinions There Batman. And what justifications should we be using here? According to you we can't use history, science and now economics.

    Someday the US will pull its head of its ass and get single payer. You'll bitch about having to pay your taxes until that day arrives when you actually seriously need that healthcare. I would hope when that day arrives you log onto this forum and apologize to the rest of us but you'll probably just bitch about your freedumbs instead.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Any social program that is paid for by involuntary taxes is inseperable from a liberty vs socialism debate. If we're talking about two different healthcare programs that costs the same amount, then yes, it's less of a libertarian debate but it's still a philosophical debate regarding whether or not people should be raised thinking they don't have to work at all in order to get the products/services they want.

    BTW I'm not even trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't support universal healthcare, I've literally never done that. I'm just saying they shouldn't justify it for the wrong reasons such as "top economists said it's the best".
    You're assuming that countries with healthcare are socialist fantasy lands with high unemployement and people who feel like they're slaves. You're wrong.

    And why dismiss expert opinions? My only guess would be that you don't know what an expert are, yet I'm sure that's not the case. You just prefere to dismiss it, since it contradicts your opinion.

    Btw philosophical debates do not wander into silly opinions on rather clear topics. Discuss the meaning of life or some other point which lacks clear facts for what it is.
    Last edited by Crispin; 2020-03-11 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay well I was just making a broader point about how economists aren't a scientific authority over what healthcare and economic policy should be implemented. If that were the case we would just switch from a democracy to a technocracy and then let science determine governmental policy. (Which is impossible)
    Did you read the article? Because if economists aren't the people to say X will be cheaper than Y, then, WADR, who the fuck is?
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    But then we'll have to kill the poors by hand.
    We are just one good excuse away from The Purge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Did you read the article? Because if economists aren't the people to say X will be cheaper than Y, then, WADR, who the fuck is?
    Ignore him. He likes to use the word "scientific" but will often contradict himself twice within as many posts, his definitions are arbitrary and he is mostly just being contrarian for the sake of pushing his looney bin conservative drivel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  10. #30
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    We are just one good excuse away from The Purge.
    The poors already kill the poors by electing people who want to kill the poors. I mean, it is the Purge, but less direct. The Purge would probably be an improvement in the sense that all the people making money off slowly killing the poors would be out of work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    "That's my style; I like to kick 'em when they're down!"
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  11. #31
    I honestly don't understand.

    If vast majority of Americans are progressive, good nature people. Very willing to help each other. Then socialism would be beautiful. Everybody pulling resources together to help each other.

    Above doesn't even have to be true. You just have to tell people that, and people will be more likely to accept socialism.

    But NO! so many racists, bigots. Those that show up to vote for Trump primary are so horrible I have no words. What are they thinking. MAGA? Trump supporters are not my people! They are not us, no way! So many of them old folks just watch FOX NEWS all day showing up for that useless primary, they don't even know what is going on!! But hey on a second thought lets share resources together shall we, we are a community? please =)

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by gobio View Post
    I honestly don't understand.

    If vast majority of Americans are progressive, good nature people. Very willing to help each other. Then socialism would be beautiful. Everybody pulling resources together to help each other.

    Above doesn't even have to be true. You just have to tell people that, and people will be more likely to accept socialism.

    But NO! so many racists, bigots. Those that show up to vote for Trump primary are so horrible I have no words. What are they thinking. MAGA? Trump supporters are not my people! They are not us, no way! So many of them old folks just watch FOX NEWS all day showing up for that useless primary, they don't even know what is going on!! But hey on a second thought lets share resources together shall we, we are a community? please =)
    People are stupid. If they have to pay 100$/pay for insurance that's 'offered' via work they are all for it. If the evil government is 'stealing' 75$/pay for the same insurance it's horrible and evil socialism!!!

    They will scream that as they cash in their government checks

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    It doesn't really matter.

    100 years from now, robot doctors will perform surgery, diagnose, write prescriptions, and do it 1000x better than any human. People will look back on today's debate between insurance vs government healthcare as hilarious and dumb.

    Unless of course our partisan bickering and destruction of trust leads us to nuke ourselves extinct before that happens.
    I'd rather improve on our current situation. 100 years from now, if we manage to do it that quickly, is still past our lifetimes. I'd like to improve things in my lifetime. Medicare for All sounds promising. At the least, an improvement. How do we transition to it safely and effectively in spite of the lobbyists who profit off the status quo doing everything in their power to stop it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Any social program that is paid for by involuntary taxes is inseperable from a liberty vs socialism debate. If we're talking about two different healthcare programs that costs the same amount, then yes, it's less of a libertarian debate but it's still a philosophical debate regarding whether or not people should be raised thinking they don't have to work at all in order to get the products/services they want.

    BTW I'm not even trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't support universal healthcare, I've literally never done that. I'm just saying they shouldn't justify it for the wrong reasons such as "top economists said it's the best".
    Involuntary taxes is a bullshit deflection.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It is on topic because the OP is making an 'appeal to authority' argument as opposed to putting forward his or her own argument on the matter.
    Expert opinions and/or finding on their subject is not an appeal to authority.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  16. #36
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Involuntary taxes is a bullshit deflection.
    It's part of the circle of bullshit of an-caps.

    Taxation is "bad" because it's involuntary, and force is used on those who resist it (not really, but they say this shit.)
    Thus, laws against rape and murder are "bad", because they're also involuntary, and force is used to arrest lawbreakers there, too (really, in this case).

    They don't like when you point out that the latter follows necessarily from the premises of the former, because it exposes that their viewpoint is complete garbage that no reasonable human being could ever believe was actually workable in a society.

    Make up nonsense premises like "all use of force in any respect is always bad", never defend those premises, complain when people show that those premises are just inherently stupid.

  17. #37
    W
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'd rather improve on our current situation. 100 years from now, if we manage to do it that quickly, is still past our lifetimes. I'd like to improve things in my lifetime. Medicare for All sounds promising. At the least, an improvement. How do we transition to it safely and effectively in spite of the lobbyists who profit off the status quo doing everything in their power to stop it?
    The issue has become far too politicized for government to fix it. By the time you fight thru the courts and red tape and arrive at a workable solution in the US, robot doctors will be almost ready.

  18. #38
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The issue has become far too politicized for government to fix it. By the time you fight thru the courts and red tape and arrive at a workable solution in the US, robot doctors will be almost ready.
    No robots and AI are no where remotely close to replacing doctors. There's literally no evidence or reason to believe that. The only medical sub-field where AI has made any progress is in radiology where pattern recognition is super human. Pattern recognition isn't intelligence though and it can't replace doctors it can only supplement them.
    -------
    A problem consists of a conflict between two ideas. Problems are soluble.
    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to predetermine the future.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    W

    The issue has become far too politicized for government to fix it. By the time you fight thru the courts and red tape and arrive at a workable solution in the US, robot doctors will be almost ready.
    they still can't get robots to make burgers right enough to replace all those workers. There is very limited success.
    They seem to be able to kind of do it right, but over time they fail....the cost of maintence increases, the cost of cleaning and disinfecting...etc

    hell taco bell put a touch screen in and half the time I go there its out of order and now its permantly has a cloth over it because of the virus. Great replacement




    the smaller you get with the things robots need to do, the longer its going to take.
    "The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court Justice. Therefore, this vacancy should not be filled until we have a new president," - McConnell

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's part of the circle of bullshit of an-caps.

    Taxation is "bad" because it's involuntary, and force is used on those who resist it (not really, but they say this shit.)
    Isn't this the same crowd that claims "if you don't like it, move somewhere else"? What stopping them from moving to somewhere with no taxes?

    (I have one of the anti-taxers at work. Every time he starts up, I ask him why he's still here, what with all the thievery he has to deal with. Still no answer.)

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