Wrathion and Xalatath

[Venziir]

Hm, possible. Though Azshara at least claims to know "what Darkness [Sylvanas] plans to unleash", if she knows about the Jailor she probably does so from N'zoth, so he would know that Sylvanas is not easily corrupted (in fact Undead are not susceptible to the Void if I recall correctly). Could be hubris that he still tried though.
I kinda hope that there is more to his plans really, connections that we have overlooked. At the moment they seem quite weak for one of the most active Old Gods in the recent history.

Sylvanas knows of the Jailor because of her suicide in Icecrown.

[DemoBytom]

I was thinking about that but being captive and tortured.. I assumed they silenced her magic as well, otherwise why wouldn't she just zap Xanesh and TP out?

The same way Doctor Strange hid the Time Gem while being captured and tortured by Ebony Maw in Infinity War..

[KOUNTERPARTS]

With all the threads on this forum that are immediately closed after the "topic has been answered and resolved" I'm surprised this one is still open.

[bullseyed]

After Xal'atath gained her new form, the severed dagger was brought to Sylvanas by the Horde player. In turn, Sylvanas gave the dagger to Nathans in preparation for the expedition to Nazjatar. After the fleets were crippled, Nathanos briefly left the Horde camp to complete his secret mission. After that, the blade somehow found its way into Azshara's hand and, subsequently, into Ny'alotha when Azshara was captured by N'Zoth. It is revealed in 8.3 that Azshara was never truly loyal to N'Zoth, and always sought to backstab him using the blade. That's why she ultimately gave the blade to Wrathion for the inevitable fight with N'Zoth.

The only mystery here is what happened during that time gap between the start of 8.2 and 8.3 and how the blade passed from Nathanos to Azshara. When Nathanos disappeared for a moment from the Horde camp, did he give the dagger to Azshara? It seems like that, because when next we see the dagger it's in Azshara's hand. Furthermore, it was revealed after the Saurfang cinematic that Sylvanas had a secret bargain with Azshara to defeat N'Zoth, so Sylvanas probably told Nathanos to give the blade to Azshara after the fleets were wrecked.

This is no mystery. These things are plainly stated in game.

The Alliance had the superior fleet once the Zandalari fleet was terrorist-bombed by the Alliance. This meant the Horde would eventually lose the war.

Sylvanas knew Azshara would want the dagger to double-cross N'zoth. Azshara was a slave of N'zoth the same way Sylvanas was a slave of the Lich King. Each wanted to use their master's blade against him.

Sylvanas sent Nathanos to deliver the dagger with the remainder of the fleet, knowing the Alliance would follow. Azshara would destroy both fleets, saving the Horde from losing the war. In exchange, Nathanos would give the dagger to Azshara so she could kill N'zoth.

So at that point:
1. The world would be saved from N'zoth, thanks to Sylvanas.
2. The Horde would be tied or winning the war with the Alliance.
3. The Alliance would have no fleet left.

But instead of letting N'zoth die, we moronically beat up Azshara instead, freeing N'zoth. And then just as Sylvanas was gaining the upper hand to win the war... a rebellion started. Again.

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This is a very weird thing here. N'zoth HAD the dagger. He demands it from elfy Xalatath as price for her freedom. The one weapon in the world that can do serious harm to him and he then allowed a random Horde to take it and bring it to Sylvanas. Presumably he forsaw that the Banshee would use it to make a deal with Azshara that would result in his freedom.
But what did he think Azshara would do with it? From his actions right after being freed he apparently knew that she was going to betray him, why ever would he allow her to get her fingers on that weapon? ....

For all we know N'zoth is in the dagger now and not dead. "Defeat" may have been part of his plan.

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Sylvanas knows of the Jailor because of her suicide in Icecrown.

Except for that would mean the "problem in Shadowlands" pre-dates Sylvanas and she isn't the "big bad" of the expansion.

A more logical explanation that keeps Sylvanas from being ret-conned as much would be if you said Sylvanas met with the Jailer while being imprisoned by Helya in Legion.

[Aucald]

With all the threads on this forum that are immediately closed after the "topic has been answered and resolved" I'm surprised this one is still open.

If it's a thread that can prompt a conversation topic (as this one has) it's generally left open - but a basic "question/answer" thing that precludes further discussion doesn't really need to be left open.

[Raisei]

This is no mystery. These things are plainly stated in game.

The Alliance had the superior fleet once the Zandalari fleet was terrorist-bombed by the Alliance. This meant the Horde would eventually lose the war.

Sylvanas knew Azshara would want the dagger to double-cross N'zoth. Azshara was a slave of N'zoth the same way Sylvanas was a slave of the Lich King. Each wanted to use their master's blade against him.

Sylvanas sent Nathanos to deliver the dagger with the remainder of the fleet, knowing the Alliance would follow. Azshara would destroy both fleets, saving the Horde from losing the war. In exchange, Nathanos would give the dagger to Azshara so she could kill N'zoth.

So at that point:
1. The world would be saved from N'zoth, thanks to Sylvanas.
2. The Horde would be tied or winning the war with the Alliance.
3. The Alliance would have no fleet left.

But instead of letting N'zoth die, we moronically beat up Azshara instead, freeing N'zoth. And then just as Sylvanas was gaining the upper hand to win the war... a rebellion started. Again.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, well, except that Sylvanas wanted to have N'zoth unleashed to kill as many people (on both sides) as possible and that she wanted the Hordes she send to Nazjatar to die and that she never cared about the Horde winning the war in the first place.

[Venziir]

This is no mystery. These things are plainly stated in game.

The Alliance had the superior fleet once the Zandalari fleet was terrorist-bombed by the Alliance. This meant the Horde would eventually lose the war.

Sylvanas knew Azshara would want the dagger to double-cross N'zoth. Azshara was a slave of N'zoth the same way Sylvanas was a slave of the Lich King. Each wanted to use their master's blade against him.

Sylvanas sent Nathanos to deliver the dagger with the remainder of the fleet, knowing the Alliance would follow. Azshara would destroy both fleets, saving the Horde from losing the war. In exchange, Nathanos would give the dagger to Azshara so she could kill N'zoth.

So at that point:
1. The world would be saved from N'zoth, thanks to Sylvanas.
2. The Horde would be tied or winning the war with the Alliance.
3. The Alliance would have no fleet left.

But instead of letting N'zoth die, we moronically beat up Azshara instead, freeing N'zoth. And then just as Sylvanas was gaining the upper hand to win the war... a rebellion started. Again.

- - - Updated - - -



For all we know N'zoth is in the dagger now and not dead. "Defeat" may have been part of his plan.

- - - Updated - - -



Except for that would mean the "problem in Shadowlands" pre-dates Sylvanas and she isn't the "big bad" of the expansion.

A more logical explanation that keeps Sylvanas from being ret-conned as much would be if you said Sylvanas met with the Jailer while being imprisoned by Helya in Legion.

Except what I wrote was litterally confirmed by Blizzard when they showcased Shadowlands.
Also, N'zoth was nuked - he's dead and gone, confirmed ingame and by Blizzard

[formerShandalay]

Except what I wrote was litterally confirmed by Blizzard when they showcased Shadowlands.
Also, N'zoth was nuked - he's dead and gone, confirmed ingame and by Blizzard

Can you give me the source on Blizzard confirming it? Was that in one of the interviews? Asking seriously, here, because I couldn't find it.
Ingame it is not confirmed, because while everyone keeps saying, we're all safe now and the Old Gods are dead, N'zoth is dead and celebrating, his eyes are still on people's foreheads (and the NPCs in question recognize if the player has one or not, so it's not an 'engine only' thing) and Alleria tells Turalyon she's not so sure, because the voices have gotten more, not less.

Edit: I mean the thing about N'zoth. Sylvanas knowing the Jailer since her jump from Icecrown was confirmed by the devs, I saw that one

[Aucald]

Can you give me the source on Blizzard confirming it? Was that in one of the interviews? Asking seriously, here, because I couldn't find it.
Ingame it is not confirmed, because while everyone keeps saying, we're all safe now and the Old Gods are dead, N'zoth is dead and celebrating, his eyes are still on people's foreheads (and the NPCs in question recognize if the player has one or not, so it's not an 'engine only' thing) and Alleria tells Turalyon she's not so sure, because the voices have gotten more, not less.

Edit: I mean the thing about N'zoth. Sylvanas knowing the Jailer since her jump from Icecrown was confirmed by the devs, I saw that one

The status of the Old Gods is pretty much a perennial unknown insofar as the Warcraft universe is concerned. Blizzard has confirmed Y'Shaarj, Yogg-Saron, and C'Thun are dead - I don't think this is confirmed for N'Zoth as of yet, but taken as more or less a given since his brothers are also dead. What "dead" actually means for the Old Gods is more up in the air, though; since we know Y'Shaarj was able to speak and even act despite his own death during the Ordering of Azeroth - and Yogg-Saron's "echoes" were similarly active in Ulduar, though this may not mean Yogg-Saron himself remains active.

Much like the players, I don't personally feel death means much to the Old Gods; it's likely they were translated into the Void on the death of their physical aspects and may well return later if needed. But for now they are at least provisionally dead and off the board unless the narrative provides for them to return.

[Varodoc]

They're not killing off the Old Gods, they need mid-tier bosses for the future Void Lords expansion.

[formerShandalay]

The status of the Old Gods is pretty much a perennial unknown insofar as the Warcraft universe is concerned. Blizzard has confirmed Y'Shaarj, Yogg-Saron, and C'Thun are dead - I don't think this is confirmed for N'Zoth as of yet, but taken as more or less a given since his brothers are also dead. What "dead" actually means for the Old Gods is more up in the air, though; since we know Y'Shaarj was able to speak and even act despite his own death during the Ordering of Azeroth - and Yogg-Saron's "echoes" were similarly active in Ulduar, though this may not mean Yogg-Saron himself remains active.

Much like the players, I don't personally feel death means much to the Old Gods; it's likely they were translated into the Void on the death of their physical aspects and may well return later if needed. But for now they are at least provisionally dead and off the board unless the narrative provides for them to return.

Yea, with the others, especially Y'shaarj that was clear, even though I was under the impression that something awakened under Ahn Qiraji with the Azerite flowing there. It was hinted at in the pre-patch and again now in 8.3. Not sure if this was literally C'thun though or if something new was created from his lingering essence with the Azerite (which might be true for all of them).

With N'zoth it was somehow special though. Because if this wasn't all an illusion created for diversion we killed a free Old God on their own plane, which given that dying on your own plane seems to make a difference for everyone, makes him even more dead than the others. But still, his eyes are there, people can still recognize each other by that and his supposed death made the voices more, not less. Also, we knew that he knew that Azshara was working against him, or at least had more ambitious plans than to work for him, he showed us the vision of it. He also knew she had the blade back from Sylvanas. There must be something more to this. I hope ^^

I think why I want to emphasize this so much and why I really seriously want to know how Blizzard worded their confirmation of N'zoth's death exactly, is because at some point when N'zoth or some future reincarnation of him comes back, people are going to scream again that they thought he was dead and that they are retconning stuff, when ... stuff was always kind of iffy about his death from the get go and there's been hints all over and nothing has to be retconned.

Again, I'm not seriously thinking, he isn't 'dead'. I just think that this doesn't mean he'll never return (in any form).

[Aucald]

Again, I'm not seriously thinking, he isn't 'dead'. I just think that this doesn't mean he'll never return (in any form).

I think this is pretty much true of all WoW villains - they can all return given sufficient need, either from alternate realities or the afterlife or what have you.

[formerShandalay]

I think this is pretty much true of all WoW villains - they can all return given sufficient need, either from alternate realities or the afterlife or what have you.

I think so too. I mean, this is a fantasy (/scifi somewhat^^)-setting with a confirmed afterlife, multiple timelines and different worlds and has always been. Undeath as it is in Warcraft is not possible without an afterlife that you/your soul can be brought back from.

Of course they shouldn't go over board with it and just bring everyone back, but if they leave hints and kind of loose ends we just shouldn't expect things to rest in peace forever.