Soulbinds - The new Talent Trees

[Eurhetemec]

Hell, tanks that outgear content tend to go for more offensive options. Defensive is typically only used when survival is questionable.

Quite. The different demands of M+ and Raids also factor in, even within progression-based PvE. The demands of The Maw may factor in too in SL (we shall see).

[NineSpine]

It's the only way to keep a system like that in place. If they didn't erase it every expansion they wouldn't be able to keep adding new ones.

That's a fairly critical flaw, and it isn't the only way. When a new expansion comes out, the result is that you lose progress immediately.

There are much more interesting and creative ways to handle this.

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You always replace gear eventually, usually multiple times per expansion. So that's literally just the same system with shorter half-life.

For that matter, that was basically the goal of Azerite gear.

Hell, tanks that outgear content tend to go for more offensive options. Defensive is typically only used when survival is questionable.

You are always in a process of replacing gear, that's right, which makes that transition categorically different from "All that shit you did for two years? Fuck that, it's gone!"

[Big Thanks]

There are much more interesting and creative ways to handle this.

Like how?

You either delete progression or you keep building it on top of eachoter endlessly...something got to give.

[huth]

You are always in a process of replacing gear, that's right, which makes that transition categorically different from "All that shit you did for two years? Fuck that, it's gone!"

No, it does not. Both are in the category temporary powers.

[Niwes]

Not if you are a casual PvP'er who is crazy in the head

who cares about PvP in wow ? ok, you, ofc. but who else, besides you and this other 5 strange guys over there ?

[Big Thanks]

who cares about PvP in wow ? ok, you, ofc. but who else, besides you and this other 5 strange guys over there ?

I mean...my BG queues are 3 min and Arena are 14 secs...someone else is queueing up

[Niwes]

I mean...my BG queues are 3 min and Arena are 14 secs...someone else is queueing up

you sure this aint bots ? i mean...

... let me tell you a story, happened 4 years ago:

i was already a wow veteran. and i even did arena (2s and 3s) for 1-2 years after TBC very well. thought i should check the BGs and queued in, like a good casual do. then i watched ~30 ppl, that did the following:

- run into middle of map
- zerg
- die
- respawn at graveyard
- run into middle of map
- zerg
- die
- respawn...

all that ppl repeated this endlessly until BG was over. so i just queued for another BG type. same here. i was somewhat confused. so i assumed they are bots. a few hours, some chats with the „bots“ and a few hard drinks later, i realized: these are not bots! i was never ever since that time in a queued BG.

that said, now i have to ask you the following:

are you sure the ppl you queued with (which makes a 3min queue possible) are not really bots these days now ?

because i fukin can NOT accept that the last 4 years soooo much ppl still joining that idiot pool of ppl i saw 4 years ago, so that casual BG PvP still exists and that there are still so many ppl that you can q in 3mins! are there really THAT MUCH idiots, or crazy ppl that dont wanna headshot theirselfes after 5mins of that stupidity, out there ?

craaaaaaazzzzzyyyyyy

[Big Thanks]

you sure this aint bots ? i mean...

... let me tell you a story, happened 4 years ago:

i was already a wow veteran. and i even did arena (2s and 3s) for 1-2 years after TBC very well. thought i should check the BGs and queued in, like a good casual do. then i watched ~30 ppl, that did the following:

- run into middle of map
- zerg
- die
- respawn at graveyard
- run into middle of map
- zerg
- die
- respawn...

all that ppl repeated this endlessly until BG was over. so i just queued for another BG type. same here. i was somewhat confused. so i assumed they are bots. a few hours, some chats with the „bots“ and a few hard drinks later, i realized: these are not bots! i was never ever since that time in a queued BG.

that said, now i have to ask you the following:

are you sure the ppl you queued with (which makes a 3min queue possible) are not really bots these days now ?

because i fukin can NOT accept that the last 4 years soooo much ppl still joining that idiot pool of ppl i saw 4 years ago, so that casual BG PvP still exists and that there are still so many ppl that you can q in 3mins! are there really THAT MUCH idiots, or crazy ppl that dont wanna headshot theirselfes after 5mins of that stupidity, out there ?

craaaaaaazzzzzyyyyyy

Ive never seen a bot in my life.

I see a lot is:
-"Guys lets just lose fast, let them win"
-Hey look a tank lets call him all kinds of names and tell him he is useless
-AFK at random spot in map (i quickly tell everyone in chat to report...most of the time they reply AND tell to just lose fast AND call me "stupid tank"...the perfect trifecta)

I dont get mad with losses though. Its CASUAL pvp after all.
I only get mad when is a roflstomp and we are GY camped...which is rare.

[Swnem]

If you want to speak of character progression, you're going to need to explain which definition you are choosing to use. It would help people understand how you've convinced yourself that a lvl 60 toon isnt stronger than a lvl 50 come 9.0.

Obviously, abilities, talent points, perks, etc. Progression that continues past the expansion.

Though, to be fair, i didnt say it isn't stronger, cause the levels and gear themselves do that (though it's also ephemeral cause of squishes). But, there was no progression. In simple terms, what did my character get from this journey he embarked on? A new technique? A new ability? What was gained that made him/her better at their class? What did he gain from this experience?
I guess +10 on the level number.


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No. Your English is not at all good, sorry. I get that you think it's amazing, but it isn't. You write about as well as a 10 or 12-year-old child does in English, except you make some grammar mistakes they never would. That's not an insult, note, and I wouldn't have said anything, but you claimed your English is "better than many native posters". I cannot think of a single native English speaking poster here on MMO-C who writes as poorly as you do in English (though you are better than some other non-native speakers, you're very far behind the best non-native speakers, some of whom GENUINELY are better than most Native English speakers).

So you need to take a step back, and reassess where you're at, English-wise. It sounds like you don't think you need to improve, but if you want to communicate effectively, and to understand other people properly, you need to do that.

It seems like this started because you misunderstood someone's wording, too, which means this is not a great time to crow about your English.



Mechanical customization? That can absolutely be a bad thing. That you think it "never" can be shows you're not bothering to be at all realistic here. Balancing stuff is hard, making a game playable is hard. The more the players can optimize or fuck up with customization, the harder it is.



You're proving my point here.

Insulting me with nonsense about "parroting" is just not very effective, and is a bit sad. I've played MMOs since 1999. When did you start? 2010? 2013? I've seen dozens of different ways of doing it, and that's what I'm basing this on. And you're agreeing - you're just saying pruned abilities should become talents which is an admission that they need to go, albeit that is frankly not a very well-thought-through or realistic solution, and would just lead to a load of talents no-one uses. You have to limit/cut abilities at some point. You can't just add actives forever. Well, I mean you can, but you'll just have loads of "trap" abilities, i.e. ones that the player shouldn't be using, because the GCD and resources (mana, rage, etc.) limit what you can use.



Pretty sad stuff.



There was no "permanent progression" of any meaningful kind. Just lumping extra abilities on isn't any kind of real "permanent progression", especially as they've been adding and removing abilities for pretty much the entire game.

Give me a second, while i care about what a random WoW poster thinks. Man... i couldn't do it!
You have been making stuff up since your first post. This is no exception. I was the one aproached, not the other way around.

But, given the atitude you've shown since the first post, i am done with your nonsense.
Meet ignore list. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your people skills. Just friendly advice. Bye!

[NineSpine]

No, it does not. Both are in the category temporary powers.

Temporary powers that you are constantly rolling through and changing as a process of advancement are categorically different from temporary powers that build-up for two years and are suddenly wiped away entirely with no replacement.

If you don't understand the difference between "Time to upgrade to more powerful gloves!" and "Well, my soulbinds that I put hundreds of hours into building up over the course of two years are gone in the patch today... and they are replaced by.... nothing." I don't really know what to tell you.

[huth]

Temporary powers that you are constantly rolling through and changing as a process of advancement are categorically different from temporary powers that build-up for two years and are suddenly wiped away entirely with no replacement.

If you don't understand the difference between "Time to upgrade to more powerful gloves!" and "Well, my soulbinds that I put hundreds of hours into building up over the course of two years are gone in the patch today... and they are replaced by.... nothing." I don't really know what to tell you.

A) They're replaced with a different system with the same purpose
B) That's a difference of scale, not category

[VinceVega]

That's a fairly critical flaw, and it isn't the only way. When a new expansion comes out, the result is that you lose progress immediately.

There are much more interesting and creative ways to handle this.

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You are always in a process of replacing gear, that's right, which makes that transition categorically different from "All that shit you did for two years? Fuck that, it's gone!"

What are more interesting ways to handle this?
Ther are more reasons for it than just new levels. It is a complete reset for everyone. People who did not play can catch up because you have a clean slate. Also there are MANY people who like the complete reset every expansion.

I really really really enjoy it. This is one of the main reason i came back EVERY expansion. If i could not take a break in the slowdown because it would take me week to catch up to others who played it to the end i don't think i would bother...

[NineSpine]

A) They're replaced with a different system with the same purpose

When the new expansion comes out, the old system pretty much immediately goes away. You lose two years of power increases and you are set back at the bottom of a hill.

B) That's a difference of scale, not category

For the purposes of analyzing the gameplay impacts of the systems, they are categorically different, just like how 40 man raids and 3 man instances are categorically different content despite primarily being distinguished by scale.

This isn't really debatable, and it's kind of a waste of time to continue engaging with this sophistry. Replacing your boots is not the same as losing two years of power gains, including new abilities, in one day.

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What are more interesting ways to handle this?
Ther are more reasons for it than just new levels. It is a complete reset for everyone. People who did not play can catch up because you have a clean slate. Also there are MANY people who like the complete reset every expansion.

I really really really enjoy it. This is one of the main reason i came back EVERY expansion. If i could not take a break in the slowdown because it would take me week to catch up to others who played it to the end i don't think i would bother...

The more interesting way to handle this is through gear, rather than erecting unnecessary secondary systems.

[VinceVega]

The more interesting way to handle this is through gear, rather than erecting unnecessary secondary systems.

Isn't it though? The reset is primarily through your gear being replaced by newer better gear. The leveling part is just part of an MMORPG. Or do you want to get rid of leveling too?

I get that it is annoying that the 2 years of farmin AP is wiped clean after an expansion. But why not? You either
a) keep your progression into the next addon which will make it nearly impossible for anyone to catchup, so you have to give them the progression "just like that"
b) completly get rid of the system for the next expansion so you can focus on something new and exiting.

For me, i repeat, for me (!) b) is better. I have my heart and cloak on max. That system was fun as long as it lastet but good riddance. Same with the Artifacts in Legion. I wanted new weopons after that. And the legendarys in WoD. I Don#t want to wear the saem forever because the effect is sooooo good.
I get that the rental system is not the best in the eyes of many. But the alternative is, that to take the system with you into the expansion, it has to be so small that it nearly does not make an impact. Because if it is to big there are just to many things to keep trakc off

[huth]

For the purposes of analyzing the gameplay impacts of the systems, they are categorically different, just like how 40 man raids and 3 man instances are categorically different content despite primarily being distinguished by scale.

Yes, they are different because they were designed to be different. 3 mans not requiring distinct roles was a concious choice by Blizzard.

Switching boots is the same save for scale, and gear has been conferring new abilities since vanilla, usually through set bonuses and trinkets.

[Unholyground]

I like how no one is realizing that that this is basically the nether light crucible expanded and does indeed use DISPOSABLE INFINITELY GRINDED SOCKET ITEMS that cannot be reused, so they just packaged the infinite grind once again into a "new" design. It is unacceptable if it goes live like they initially showed, they need to let us bare minimum reuse the rare versions of those socketed items or they need to be so plentiful that you get them by sneezing.

[NineSpine]

Yes, they are different because they were designed to be different. 3 mans not requiring distinct roles was a concious choice by Blizzard.

So what you are saying is that when two systems appear to be extremely similar except for scale, they can still be categorically different if their impact on the game is profoundly different? Isn't that... exactly what I said?

Switching boots is the same save for scale, and gear has been conferring new abilities since vanilla, usually through set bonuses and trinkets.

You can keep repeating that upgrading a pair of boots is exactly the same as deleting two years of progress into an isolated system is the same thing, but it isn't.

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Isn't it though? The reset is primarily through your gear being replaced by newer better gear. The leveling part is just part of an MMORPG. Or do you want to get rid of leveling too?

I'd prefer leveling be a substantially longer, more substantive part of the game.

I get that it is annoying that the 2 years of farmin AP is wiped clean after an expansion. But why not? You either
a) keep your progression into the next addon which will make it nearly impossible for anyone to catchup, so you have to give them the progression "just like that"
b) completly get rid of the system for the next expansion so you can focus on something new and exiting.

For me, i repeat, for me (!) b) is better. I have my heart and cloak on max. That system was fun as long as it lastet but good riddance. Same with the Artifacts in Legion. I wanted new weopons after that. And the legendarys in WoD. I Don#t want to wear the saem forever because the effect is sooooo good.
I get that the rental system is not the best in the eyes of many. But the alternative is, that to take the system with you into the expansion, it has to be so small that it nearly does not make an impact. Because if it is to big there are just to many things to keep trakc off

I'm not advocating that you keep the same things forever, so I don't really know who you are arguing with.

Gear can do all of these things without all of the downsides.

[VinceVega]

So what you are saying is that when two systems appear to be extremely similar except for scale, they can still be categorically different if their impact on the game is profoundly different? Isn't that... exactly what I said?



You can keep repeating that upgrading a pair of boots is exactly the same as deleting two years of progress into an isolated system is the same thing, but it isn't.

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I'd prefer leveling be a substantially longer, more substantive part of the game.



I'm not advocating that you keep the same things forever, so I don't really know who you are arguing with.

Gear can do all of these things without all of the downsides.

Then i severly misunderstood you^^
And i agree that leveling could be longer

[Northy]

Are soulbinds limited to within our Covenant selection?

[Big Thanks]

Yes.

Ill change the OP

Here is a preview calculator from WoWhead:

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/soulbind-calc