Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Grazrug]

Well, if Blizzard makes all factions that has a role to play in the world alliance based, then how will the Horde ever do any faction-neutral content? The alliance, or alliance-race based characters already hog all important lore out there, Sylvanas being the only current exception (but barely qualifies being an ex-elf). The Horde can't contribute with their leaders (unless toppling their own mad tyrants), and now the horde race commoners can't have roles in what should be neutral factions either? Well, fine, shove the Cenarion Circle, the Kirin Tor and all of them back into the Alliance, and make twice the content. Or perhaps you meant that Hordies should just sit on their asses in Orgrimmar with nothing to do?

I feel like that's exactly what alliance fanatics want to happen.

[Ielenia]

The Kirin Tor is a FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE ALLIANCE.
The Knight of the Silver Hand were CREATED BY THE ALLIANCE TO FIGHT THE HORDE in Warcraft 2.

Even if "not all are Alliance-aligned", the point stands.

Those are two. And the Earthen Ring, a "Horde faction" is open to the Alliance. So... two to one?

[Mehrunes]

So you admit Horde killed Kirin Tor in Cataclysm? Cool, that was the point.

Except your actual point was you trying to contradict @matrix123mko saying that Dalaran broke its neutrality by aiding Theramore (as opposed to the Horde betraying it later on during the Divine Bell incident). Yet when Kinndy proposed to Jaina to ask the Kirin Tor for help in Theramore's defense Jaina herself told her that it'd be asking Dalaran to break its neutrality. So not only did Jaina herself agree with matrix123mko's notion that Dalaran was breaking its neutrality then, the fact said neutrality still existed prior to that means the events of Cataclysm did not impact it due to the Kirin Tor brushing that incident under the carpet or some other reason.

More likely the few people with sanity realize "Hmm, the Horde is interested in it. Obviously it's for their extensive farms, peaceful villages, and tranquil gardens... wait no, they only give a damn about mass murdering everyone else and plundering the ruins. Maybe we should see how they can use this as a weapon."

Not only is any of this besides the point that was actually being discussed, but it's not even something raised by any of the NPCs that direct the Alliance player against the Goblins there.

They didn't know they were Horde-aligned goblins, I don't think. Has it be so long that people have forgotten most goblins are neutral? What if they were Booty Bay, or Gadgetzan, or Venture Co.? Admittedly later would be ok, too, but I hope you get my point. They went in blind. Imagine Alliance going in, slaughtering a bunch of tauren and trolls, then getting an angry letter from the Cenarion Circle going "wtf bro?"

The NPCs mention both the Horde and the Bilgewater Cartel by name right off the bat when they send the player to the mining camp. And I'm pretty sure the discussion between Shaw, Anduin and Genn also mentioned the Horde.

Yes, obviously I get the point if they were indeed neutral. I thought it was made clear they were Horde aligned, may need to recheck.

It was made clear. https://wow.gamepedia.com/It%27s_a_Sabotage mentions both the Bilgewater Cartel and the Horde. And this quest is done concurrently with the one to kill Goblins. Hell, even the quest before that mentions that what they are observing is a Horde operation.

Disregarding the bias in OP, I would like Horde to have its own factions for stuff. Like the Explorer's League, it's sometimes neutral, but mainly Alliance, so it was great Horde got Reliquary in Cataclysm to have a similar faction of its own. Sometimes I enjoy the neutral factions, I mean, Khadgar was great in WoD and Legion, it would've been sad if Horde hadn't gotten to know him. Having said that, Horde has had considerable arcane-resources of its own since TBC with the addition of blood elves and now even more with the nightborne. It's weird that it's always Kirin Tor dragging us about when we have mages leading the charge. Even weirder when you consider the falling out in MoP, where Sunreaver citizens were massacred/imprisoned for something they had nothing to do with, leading to animosity on both sides; all that was wiped under the rug in WoD, with only Jaina stating mild opposition at one point in the legendary questline. By this point it's hard to turn the Kirin Tor fully Alliance again, but tbh they can take a step back in general, leaving Alliance's arcane matters to Stormwind and/or the Highborne. Khadgar is also the Guardian nowadays, so if the writers want to include him in things they can do so without towing the Kirin Tor along.

Not since TBC. Since Vanilla. Plenty of Kirin Tor members killed by the Scourge eventually became the Forsaken. It was particularly focused on during Vanilla itself with many key Forsaken NPCs in various questlines being Mages (the focus since then shifted onto other aspects of their race). And yet the Forsaken don't even have a named caster force. At least Blood Elves have the Magisters (still useless, but it's at least something).

[Feanoro]

Not only is any of this besides the point that was actually being discussed, but it's not even something raised by any of the NPCs that direct the Alliance player against the Goblins there.

I'm sorry that you need things spelled out.

It was made clear. https://wow.gamepedia.com/It%27s_a_Sabotage mentions both the Bilgewater Cartel and the Horde. And this quest is done concurrently with the one to kill Goblins. Hell, even the quest before that mentions that what they are observing is a Horde operation.

Yes, that's what I thought was the case.

[Mehrunes]

I'm sorry that you need things spelled out.

If this is supposed to pass for anything resembling a rebuttal in your mind, rethink that.

[Specialka]

If this is supposed to pass for anything resembling a rebuttal in your mind, rethink that.

Well, anyone with common sense would be interested in Horde operation after the 1st war, the second war, Garrosh, Theramore, Stormheim, and I forgot some I think.

The Horde can't be trusted, especially with Sylvanas as Warchief. So obv, you will send ppl to investigate what they are doing. And what if they kill some goblins? Maybe it was the alliance, maybe it was someone else. No big deal to frame someone. And the War of Thorns is not even based about that. Sylvanas convinced Saurfang that the Alliance would never let them in peace (Obv, when you have an untrustworthy leader, no one will let you in peace, and we do know now that she just wanted carnage and blood to fead the Jailer).

That is the same about ppl blaming Jaina for attacking the Barrens during Cata. When the kingdom near you has a known warmonger at its head, you do not wait for them to come knocking at your door. You act first and hope they are not yet organised.

[Mehrunes]

Well, anyone with common sense would be interested in Horde operation after the 1st war, the second war, Garrosh, Theramore, Stormheim, and I forgot some I think.

The Horde can't be trusted, especially with Sylvanas as Warchief. So obv, you will send ppl to investigate what they are doing. And what if they kill some goblins? Maybe it was the alliance, maybe it was someone else. No big deal to frame someone. And the War of Thorns is not even based about that. Sylvanas convinced Saurfang that the Alliance would never let them in peace (Obv, when you have an untrustworthy leader, no one will let you in peace, and we do know now that she just wanted carnage and blood to fead the Jailer).

But the Alliance didn't do that. They weren't operating under the premise of "this looks like a potential weapon, what if the Horde weaponizes it?", they were by their own admission operating under the premise of "dafuq is this, let's check this out and go from there". And Sylvanas was right. It's not like the Alliance acted any other way even when Thrall was the Warchief and Thrall was A-grade Alliance appeaser. Plus Alliance killing Goblins just because was just a fresh case of example proving her right so trying to separate the two the way you did doesn't work particularly well.

That is the same about ppl blaming Jaina for attacking the Barrens during Cata. When the kingdom near you has a known warmonger at its head, you do not wait for them to come knocking at your door. You act first and hope they are not yet organised.

Garrosh was a truly well-known warmonger in the week or so he's been Warchief prior to that. Though it is refreshing to see an Alliance poster flat out admitting Jaina attacked first.

[Lieutenant Commander]

the fact said neutrality still existed prior to that means the events of Cataclysm did not impact it due to the Kirin Tor brushing that incident under the carpet or some other reason.

Yeah, it means horde actions never have any consequences. We noticed over the years.

[Feanoro]

But the Alliance didn't do that. They weren't operating under the premise of "this looks like a potential weapon, what if the Horde weaponizes it?", they were by their own admission operating under the premise of "dafuq is this, let's check this out and go from there".

So, according to you, because they did not explicitly state, "Based on experience, the Horde's interest in this substance is likely in the nature of using it as a weapon", that had nothing to do with their intent. Do you also need them to explicitly point out the sky is blue for it to be so? Again, sorry to see you need things spelled out.

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Yeah, it means horde actions never have any consequences. We noticed over the years.

They're not going to have actual consequences for their pets, aside from writing that makes teenage emo poetry look deep.

[Specialka]

But the Alliance didn't do that. They weren't operating under the premise of "this looks like a potential weapon, what if the Horde weaponizes it?", they were by their own admission operating under the premise of "dafuq is this, let's check this out and go from there". And Sylvanas was right. It's not like the Alliance acted any other way even when Thrall was the Warchief and Thrall was A-grade Alliance appeaser. Plus Alliance killing Goblins just because was just a fresh case of example proving her right so trying to separate the two the way you did doesn't work particularly well.




Garrosh was a truly well-known warmonger in the week or so he's been Warchief prior to that. Though it is refreshing to see an Alliance poster flat out admitting Jaina attacked first.

Even when Thrall was the Warchief, the Horde was still full of bloodthirsty savages or even worst, undeads. Who would trust such a faction?

And when such a faction led by a total untrustworthy leader, aka Sylvanas starts doing stuffs, you go there to check. It is common sense. But as usual you do you.

And I did not admit anything as I am not familiar with who attacked first in the Barrens. I said : when ppl blame Jaina for doing it. I guess your reading comprehension is lacking. And Garrosh was well known for being a warmonger, just check how he acts in the fortress in Borean Tundra.

[baskev]

If you were talking about Jaina you were even more wrong because Jaina most certainly was not neutral at that point. She was the leader of Theramore, an Alliance nation. Which was as far from neutral as one could get in a Horde-Alliance conflict.
The stark majority of the Horde opposed Garrosh, most of the Shamans included. And what's the second Horde bad thing if not the Goblins?
I'm not moving the goalposts. You tried to paint the Ebon Blade as some benevolent faction that gives a shit about free will of the undead. They are not. Meanwhile the stark majority of the undead resurrected by the Forsaken have free will, with the only exception being a temporary meatshield of undead constructs.
No one said it should be? The point was that it being an Alliance quest only is a rather clear indication on Jaina's stance at that point. Besides, you already admitted to @Verdugo you were wrong about that one.
That would make the bombs the WMDs, not Azerite itself. Not that I've seen WMD level Azerite bombs.
I'm not sidestepping the point. I'm perfectly aware what the main topic of the thread is. The particular comment about WMDs wasn't about that nor was it in a reply to a comment about the main topic. I was replying precisely on point of what I was replying to.
But I haven't said a word about about you thinking the Alliance is perfect or saying that the Horde is bad. Nor do I disagree that the question posed by the OP is valid (though the examples of Ebon Blade and Earthen Ring are the weakest ones out of all the non-playable factions).
I responded to most recent post that picked my attention out of the few most recent posts that showed up after I clicked the "view most recent posts" button because I didn't want to read through the entire thread.

Because you are clearly out of a qoute war not going to respond to all of it.

On all the lore stuff. Okay good that you know every nut and bolt.
And yes i admitted that i was wrong. So move on

....not WMD bombs/weapons.....look at every explosion or that goblin mech suite. Or the fact the anduin felt how much power there was in the stuff.

So....if you agree the question is valid...why go for a qoute war ?
And respond to the post that picked your attention...clearly several posts before and after me with the same lore stuff. And my post was not most recent...there where enough post below me with the same problems. Not repsonding to you anymore.

Clearly can not stop following me around.

Infracted.

[Syegfryed]

Even when Thrall was the Warchief, the Horde was still full of bloodthirsty savages or even worst, undeads. Who would trust such a faction?

thats why the alliance deserve what they got in cata and MOP, if the horde was being called bloodthirsty savages and being attacked left and right, when they did nothing might as well fuck things up

And I did not admit anything as I am not familiar with who attacked first in the Barrens. I said : when ppl blame Jaina for doing it. I guess your reading comprehension is lacking. And Garrosh was well known for being a warmonger, just check how he acts in the fortress in Borean Tundra.

Alliance did, and people don't blame her for attacking, people call out her hypocrisy, saying she wanted peace but letting her city being an advanced base for the alliance to attack the horde and send reinforcement for the night elves. She didn't think her talk would make people blind for what was happening.

[Mehrunes]

Even when Thrall was the Warchief, the Horde was still full of bloodthirsty savages or even worst, undeads. Who would trust such a faction?

You're moving the goalposts right now. Which makes for a super strony and valid argumentation.

And when such a faction led by a total untrustworthy leader, aka Sylvanas starts doing stuffs, you go there to check. It is common sense. But as usual you do you.

Which part of the Alliance's motivation being the desire to learn more about Azerite itself continues to elude you, exactly? Od is it a deliberate you do you thing?

And I did not admit anything as I am not familiar with who attacked first in the Barrens. I said : when ppl blame Jaina for doing it. I guess your reading comprehension is lacking.

Right. Speaking of that, there's quite a significant difference between "when people blame Jaina" and "if Jaina were to be blamed". It's the latter one that actually conveys the message you think your comment conveys. The former? Especially with you instead opting to justify Jaina instead? That's a clear indication od treating Jaina's blame as factual.

Which it is, because her forces invaded the Barrens before Cataclysm Has happened. Garrosh on the other hand started his invasion of Ashenvale after that.

And Garrosh was well known for being a warmonger, just check how he acts in the fortress in Borean Tundra.

I'm sorry, how is the Alliance privvy to that information again?

[Dazmalak]

Why do we even have factions? Seems like they only tear us apart and divide us. I feel like orcs can integrate well into Alliance society if given a chance. I also think humans could be tribal and stuff like the orcs and trolls. It's all stupid and we should just be allowed to play anything in any faction. I'm all for this kind of diversity and I think at this point the game should reflect real life. Just imagine orc paladins and gnome shamans. Would be nice to see some more representation from alternative lifestyles as well. Please Blizz, end the war and just give us this kinds of things.

[Jastall]

Garrosh was a truly well-known warmonger in the week or so he's been Warchief prior to that. Though it is refreshing to see an Alliance poster flat out admitting Jaina attacked first.

I mean, even if the Alliance don't know about his dumbass plan to attack Valgarde in Northrend, they know that he was ready to attack Varian at a diplomatic meeting in Dalaran, and that's even before becoming Warchief. Him being a warmonger isn't exactly reaching.

Now the more salient point to me is why on earth Jaina authorized Theramore to be used as a base of operations for Alliance incursions in the Barrens knowing what kind of person Garrosh was and most likely how he would react. She stood by and let her father die in the name of peace with the Horde, but then just lets Varian send troops to the Barrens without a care in the world a few years later? That plot development was never explained and never made any sense to me. It's not that she was suddenly anti-Horde or anything, since as late as ICC she was proud of Varian for allowing Saurfang to retrieve his son's body.

[Grazrug]

Cataclysm Kirin Tor aided Alliance in retaking Lordaeron too. Nobody mentioned it again. Just the part with the divine bell gets blown over all the time. Rommath was right. Kirin Tor treachery and hypocrisy stinks.

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I mean, even if the Alliance don't know about his dumbass plan to attack Valgarde in Northrend, they know that he was ready to attack Varian at a diplomatic meeting in Dalaran, and that's even before becoming Warchief. Him being a warmonger isn't exactly reaching.

Now the more salient point to me is why on earth Jaina authorized Theramore to be used as a base of operations for Alliance incursions in the Barrens knowing what kind of person Garrosh was and most likely how he would react. She stood by and let her father die in the name of peace with the Horde, but then just lets Varian send troops to the Barrens without a care in the world a few years later? That plot development was never explained and never made any sense to me. It's not that she was suddenly anti-Horde or anything, since as late as ICC she was proud of Varian for allowing Saurfang to retrieve his son's body.

Because faction war plot needed to happen. That's why.

[Zuben]

Not since TBC. Since Vanilla. Plenty of Kirin Tor members killed by the Scourge eventually became the Forsaken. It was particularly focused on during Vanilla itself with many key Forsaken NPCs in various questlines being Mages (the focus since then shifted onto other aspects of their race). And yet the Forsaken don't even have a named caster force. At least Blood Elves have the Magisters (still useless, but it's at least something).

Right, forgot about the Mage Quarter in Undercity. Well, regardless of it the Forsaken mages have been more about individual talent than an organized force. The blood elves took over either way.

[Syegfryed]

I mean, even if the Alliance don't know about his dumbass plan to attack Valgarde in Northrend, they know that he was ready to attack Varian at a diplomatic meeting in Dalaran, and that's even before becoming Warchief. Him being a warmonger isn't exactly reaching.

or it was Varian who was ready to attack him?

people forget or ignore that Varian was more bloodthirsty back then than Garrosh itself, HE started the war especially because he hate and want to kill all orcs

Now the more salient point to me is why on earth Jaina authorized Theramore to be used as a base of operations for Alliance incursions in the Barrens knowing what kind of person Garrosh was and most likely how he would react. She stood by and let her father die in the name of peace with the Horde, but then just lets Varian send troops to the Barrens without a care in the world a few years later? That plot development was never explained and never made any sense to me. It's not that she was suddenly anti-Horde or anything, since as late as ICC she was proud of Varian for allowing Saurfang to retrieve his son's body.

Hypocrisy, she tied again with their friends of alliance, her kin, logically she would "help then"

maybe in her eyes this was not problem since her warriors were not doing the attacks( that she knew) maybe she though just being a advanced base of operations was not breaking the peace

[Terongor]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

1) Well kirin tors had longer ties with kingdom of silvermoon than any other alliance kingdom. Heck kirin tor wouldn't exists with silvermoon.

2) argent dawn members were before they became argent dawn members of scarlet crusade and they are hostile to both factions so ties to alliance don't really exists because of being members of Scarlets before.

3) Tirion United argent dawn and silver hand to one and silverhand was pretty ceased to exists for a long time after saiden and alexandros made it into scarlets and it was re-established in legion from argent crusade.

4) but this is kinda iffy as cenarion circle first and foremost follows word of cenarius and he is unalligned

5) wardens joined alliance in darkshore and them being neutral is only in legion and wardens tried to kill malf and imprison most of nelf population.

We have same thing with other faction earthern ring was founded by taurens in -230, ogri'la being ancestors of orcs and ogre siding with horde in firsr and secondvwars, saberstalkers mostly made of horde races and legion making nighborne and highmountains neutral.

While army of the ligght suffered from the same thing its still less than two.

[Ardenaso]

Why do we even have factions? Seems like they only tear us apart and divide us. I feel like orcs can integrate well into Alliance society if given a chance. I also think humans could be tribal and stuff like the orcs and trolls. It's all stupid and we should just be allowed to play anything in any faction. I'm all for this kind of diversity and I think at this point the game should reflect real life. Just imagine orc paladins and gnome shamans. Would be nice to see some more representation from alternative lifestyles as well. Please Blizz, end the war and just give us this kinds of things.

Shameless plug, here:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

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1) Well kirin tors had longer ties with kingdom of silvermoon than any other alliance kingdom. Heck kirin tor wouldn't exists with silvermoon..

I'm thinking the Alliance High Elves seem intent to keep the Kirin Tor for them as an act of defiance against Quel'thalas like in WoTLK they attempted to cockblock the Blood Elves from the Kirin Tor (thankfully Rhonin vetoed his wife's wish to remove Blood Elves, and like in MoP when they killed more Blood Elves than Jaina did