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  1. #381
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaterasu65 View Post
    Ironic when all prominent thalassian females went after humans.
    Well they were windrunners, and the windrunner sisters are the Kardashians of Warcraft.
    #boycottchina

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    well on this you can clearly see what tabard alexandros mograine is using https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3E6W6-rRGA
    ... That doesn't mean anything. Of course Alexandros would be wearing the Scarlet Crusade tabard after the Scarlet Crusade has been formed.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  3. #383
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    And it is a fact how? My information comes from Rise of the Horde,
    yes, here is your problem you are using old source, too old, chronicles already paint all over that

    where it is described as Talgath coming across Draenor and only finding Draenei traces once there. Kil'Jaeden was looking for a race like the Orcs to begin with to corrupt, so with or without the Draenei being there, things would probably have developed similarly.
    don't change the fact that the legion only went there because they found draenei traces, without that they would not go to draenor at all, that means the draenei did brought the Legion there

    This is the distinction here - the Draenei didn't bring the Legion somewhere, the Legion was searching for them on whatever world they could find
    if you are going somwhere with a serial killer behind your back you are putting everyone in that place in danger, even more when you don't warn anyone about it, its simple as that.

    I just don't get this apparent need to try and have the Draenei, victims of genocide, to be as bad as others who willingly commit genocide.
    except i at least, did not that, this is a fail strawman, im just pointing on the fact that they also are to blame and willingly or not, caused genocide on other races

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    But how is that the same as being knowingly responsible of genocide? That is the pertinent question here. The only argument one could possibly make for that would be that the Draenei somehow led the Legion to these worlds, which somehow would otherwise wouldn't have been found. The Legion would have attacked these worlds anyway after all, so blaming the Draenei for that in any capacity would only work if that was the case. And I find that kind of hard to believe. Blaming refugees for what the people they are fleeing from did just strikes me as slightly missing the point.
    The Legion's Burning Crusade does not mean they don't prioritize things. Kil'Jaeden considered Draenor to be unremarkable and not worthy of his attention would it not be for the Draenei there. And once he achieved his vengeance he left the Orcs to their own devices. No Armageddon followup. There's also the issue of time. If it was not for Draenei's cat and mouse game (judging by Xenedar's ability to hide right in Argus for 25 millennia, potentially completely needless) that actively dragged the Legion's attention to the worlds visited by the Draenei, they likely would have found on their own only later on. Maybe some of them would have even reached a stellar age by that time if things were left to their own devices, instead of still being in a tribal period.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    The main criticism one could levy at the Draenei in that situation would be that they didn't help the inhabitants of that world fend off the Legion or take their members with them. That'd be somewhat fair, though the former would probably be futile and we don't really know if they could have carried and supplied more people. Certainly not the inhabitants of another full world.
    And even that is not exactly a clear-cut situation, either. The only world that Velen tells us explicitly about in the Lesson short story is Fanlin'Deskor - and he makes it very clear that the Draenei were not able to communicate with its inhabitants in any way. It's easy to say "just save them", but if you can't even explain to them that a massive force of demons might be coming any day now, it is pretty hard to do even that. And even if you can communicate, making them believe it would be another matter entirely. Just look at the human kings in WC3 being unwilling to believe Medivh. The Draenei would have met the same issues. Thus, without being able to communicate or truly convince, the only way to save people, realistically, would have been to forcefully move them to the Exodar before fleeing, which would come with issues of its own.
    Naturally, there were probably also races that would have been able to communicate and willing to believe. We don't actually know what the Draenei did in those instances. They might even have tried to take them with, but not in sufficient numbers for a minimum viable population or so. We just don't have the info there.
    I really don't know why you brought up Fanlin'Deskor, let alone used it as some cornerstone of your argument here when it's not a world the Draenei ever visited but one Velen only saw in a vision. It doesn't exactly factor here. And "they wouldn't believe us anyway" is a piss-poor excuse for not even trying to inform the inhabitants of the countless (as described in Rise of the Horde) worlds Talgath arrived at during his hunt of the Draenei.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I must have mixed it up. I'll reread the manga/comic again.
    If I recall correctly, what you said was the state of things prior to that comic's retcon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And why are they following the Draenei if they only target World Soul World. Your argument does not make a lot of sense.
    Because of Kil'Jaeden's personal grudge against Velen?


    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Another question, what are they called Draenei since they are coming from Argus? I know those guys got retcon a lot.
    What's the problem there supposed to be? Draenei means exiled in Eredun. I'm not sure how them coming from Argus is supposed to change anything here.
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    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yes, here is your problem you are using old source, too old, chronicles already paint all over that

    don't change the fact that the legion only went there because they found draenei traces, without that they would not go to draenor at all, that means the draenei did brought the Legion there

    if you are going somwhere with a serial killer behind your back you are putting everyone in that place in danger, even more when you don't warn anyone about it, its simple as that.

    except i at least, did not that, this is a fail strawman, im just pointing on the fact that they also are to blame and willingly or not, caused genocide on other races
    Well, what does chronicles say, specifically in that regard then? I mean, if you have contradicting excerpts then you should share them since you apparently own it. I don't, and I'm not going to buy it just for the sake of arguments. Especially when Blizz has already apparently started to retcon part of chronicles and labelled them a biased account of things.

    The serial killer analogy is a bit weird, since usually we don't hold people that run from those accountable for what the serial killer does. I mean yeah, they technically put others in danger, but the thing is that there isn't an alternative to that. Other than letting yourself get killed. And "you should let the serial killer kill you in they hopes that they won't kill anyone else" is just not very convincing, you know?

    The blame falls solely on the killer. They didn't cause a genocide, since the Burning Legion is not a force of nature, it is a force of people. They make the decisions. If the Draenei were actively resisting the Legion or poised a threat to them that was to be exterminated, maybe there would be a point. But these people were hiding from killers and the killers decided to murder everyone they came remotely in contact with. Blaming them for the decisions made by the Legion is just very, well, victim-blamey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The Legion's Burning Crusade does not mean they don't prioritize things. Kil'Jaeden considered Draenor to be unremarkable and not worthy of his attention would it not be for the Draenei there. And once he achieved his vengeance he left the Orcs to their own devices. No Armageddon followup. There's also the issue of time. If it was not for Draenei's cat and mouse game (judging by Xenedar's ability to hide right in Argus for 25 millennia, potentially completely needless) that actively dragged the Legion's attention to the worlds visited by the Draenei, they likely would have found on their own only later on. Maybe some of them would have even reached a stellar age by that time if things were left to their own devices, instead of still being in a tribal period.

    I really don't know why you brought up Fanlin'Deskor, let alone used it as some cornerstone of your argument here when it's not a world the Draenei ever visited but one Velen only saw in a vision. It doesn't exactly factor here. And "they wouldn't believe us anyway" is a piss-poor excuse for not even trying to inform the inhabitants of the countless (as described in Rise of the Horde) worlds Talgath arrived at during his hunt of the Draenei.
    I can already tell that we two will not exactly come to any agreement, since we will never do, haha.
    Anyway, I already acknowledged the priority system a few posts back.
    The orc thing is like...what? The Legion didn't leave the orcs alone. After almost wiping out the Draenei, the Legion set them on a course to attack Azeroth through the dark portal. You know, the plot that Sargeras himself aided through possessing Medivh and that was covered by the first few games? And after that whole thing went southwards and Draenor collapsed, the Legion, heralded by Magtheridon, took control of Outland. Only the Mag'har remained somewhat unmolested. They didn't wipe them out because they took control of most Orcs not currently on Azeroth.
    Kil'Jaeden had a vast interest in the Orcs as a subservient race to the Legion. Sure, he might have missed them initially if it wasn't for traces of Draenei magic left on Draenor, but there isn't exactly a guarantee of it. Not saying he would definitely have overlooked them, but also not that he definitely wouldn't have. There isn't exactly a lot we can say about this what is sort of thing.

    Which is basically the exact problem I have with the cat-and-mouse argument you brought up. Well that and blaming the mouse for trying to survive. But yeah, it's all based on a massive 'if-then' assumption, i.e. that the Draenei definitely caused the extinction of races that would have been preventable otherwise. We can debate likelihoods all we want, but those are just based on even more assumptions. It will lead nowhere. We all have our opinion of what happened and that is fine, as long as no one claims to know an absolute truth here. Unless Blizz flat-out states that the Draenei caused races to perish that otherwise wouldn't have had - or the opposite- there really is no point to all this.

    Anyway, apparently Chronicles has information in it that makes Rise of the Horde unreliable, so I'm not going to bother with that other point and wait until someone gives me excerpts of that.

  6. #386
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    The Legion would've tried to destroy Draenor regardless. People forget that Sargeras' final goal was developing a Dark Pantheon that could wipe out all life in the universe (which is what Argus indeed tried to do).
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  7. #387
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Well, what does chronicles say, specifically in that regard then? I mean, if you have contradicting excerpts then you should share them since you apparently own it.
    i already show wiki quotes now and then, if you have doubt about anything you can check out there is more than updated


    The blame falls solely on the killer. They didn't cause a genocide, since the Burning Legion is not a force of nature, it is a force of people. They make the decisions. If the Draenei were actively resisting the Legion or poised a threat to them that was to be exterminated, maybe there would be a point. But these people were hiding from killers and the killers decided to murder everyone they came remotely in contact with. Blaming them for the decisions made by the Legion is just very, well, victim-blamey.
    you are just trying to withewash then, its not "victim-blamey" since the others dead are also victim, they are to blame too, they brought the legion, they didn't warn other races and keep living like the legion was not on their backs when they knew they would find then eventually.

    Yes the serial killer is to blame but to blame the ones who brought him and never did a warn to the others so they could protect themselves or even help? left then alone to their demise? that is negligence

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i already show wiki quotes now and then, if you have doubt about anything you can check out there is more than updated

    you are just trying to withewash then, its not "victim-blamey" since the others dead are also victim, they are to blame too, they brought the legion, they didn't warn other races and keep living like the legion was not on their backs when they knew they would find then eventually.

    Yes the serial killer is to blame but to blame the ones who brought him and never did a warn to the others so they could protect themselves or even help? left then alone to their demise? that is negligence
    But...the Wiki does state that

    However, no amount of preparation could keep the draenei hidden forever. Eventually, Talgath—after some 25,000 years of pursuit—stumbled upon Draenor, and reported back to Kil'jaeden.
    He stumbled over it, meaning he would have gone to Draenor whether they were there or not. You denied that, so I thought you had sources completely contradicting this.

    As for the blame, I really don't see it. You call it negligence, but let's look at the situation here:

    * To the Draenei's knowledge, no one can protect themselves against the Legion anyway. They couldn't, despite very advanced magic and technology.
    * The Legion was not exactly hot on the Draenei's heels. Their scouts might have appeared the next day, the next decade, the next century or the next millennia.
    * The Draenei did the best they could to hide their traces in order to not draw in the Legion. Scouts had to stumble upon the world they sought refuge on, rather than being able to follow a trail there.
    * Sharing their technology/magic with native races could raise the attention of the Legion through usage, much like what happened on Azeroth.

    It's really not as black and white to say "warning the other and help them is always a good thing". It's why the killer analogy breaks down a little, since a killer might be stopped by involving others, especially authorities. But the Burning Legion really is more akin to death itself as far as the Draenei in that situation are concerned. You can't fight them. And trying to elevate another civilization in the hopes of somehow fighting them might bring the Legion upon them even sooner.

    What purpose, truly would it have served to warn some nomadic civilization? They would die anyway, but if they truly believe you, you basically condemn them to a life of fear, possibly for generations. Train the current generation, teach them magic and you might get it killed even though it didn't have to die. These are the considerations one has to made in the Draenei's situation. We don't know if they tried, again. All we know, really, is that on Draenor, they made the decision to instead of trying to warn the Orcs, they would go into hiding, doing what they could to avoid detection. They took whatever precaution they could to not bring the Legion there. I don't really see that as negligence. The Legion didn't come for a long while, possibly even generations for the Orcs.

    The most you can really accuse the Draenei of is that they didn't really give the Orcs a chance of self-determination in this case, that they decided what was best for them. Sure, that's dickish in its own way, even if the motives themselves might be well-intentioned. Warning the Orcs wouldn't have suddenly enabled them to fend off a Legion invasion. If they could have, it might have been negligence. But if the outcome is the same either way, I just don't see it.

  9. #389
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    But...the Wiki does state that



    He stumbled over it, meaning he would have gone to Draenor whether they were there or not. You denied that, so I thought you had sources completely contradicting this.
    you think he just stumbled there, by accident, by mere coincidence, and not because they were following the draenei trail? come on now, be realistic

    * To the Draenei's knowledge, no one can protect themselves against the Legion anyway. They couldn't, despite very advanced magic and technology.

    "lets not worry about the lesser races anyway, not given then the chance of try to defend themselves by an enemy we are brought then, since they would died anyway by the legion"


    great logic, lets just turn things and say, whats the problem if the orcs killed the draenei anyway? since the legion would get to then? it was their doing, orcs were just mere tools, they could use another or do it themselves!1!!
    * The Legion was not exactly hot on the Draenei's heels. Their scouts might have appeared the next day, the next decade, the next century or the next millennia.
    but they were after then, and following then they found then in draenor.

    * The Draenei did the best they could to hide their traces in order to not draw in the Legion. Scouts had to stumble upon the world they sought refuge on, rather than being able to follow a trail there.
    but they did nothing to warn other races in case anything happened
    * Sharing their technology/magic with native races could raise the attention of the Legion through usage, much like what happened on Azeroth.
    Warning then would be enough, and they keep using their technology and magic anyway, just look at their cities rofl.
    It's really not as black and white to say "warning the other and help them is always a good thing".
    its rly is, is best to warn someone is going to kill you, so you get prepared than tell nothing at all

    we all saw what they not saying a thing end up

    It's why the killer analogy breaks down a little, since a killer might be stopped by involving others, especially authorities. But the Burning Legion really is more akin to death itself as far as the Draenei in that situation are concerned. You can't fight them. And trying to elevate another civilization in the hopes of somehow fighting them might bring the Legion upon them even sooner.
    by this logic we can remove all orc blame for all their atrocities since the legion cannot be fight, the draenei and azeroth would be doomed anyway, its not orc fault

    in fact, gladly they use orcs at all, cause they didn't kill everyone, something the legion would do, now with this distort logic we should thanks the orcs did the job


    What purpose, truly would it have served to warn some nomadic civilization? They would die anyway,
    nice, lets just withewash the negligence

    again, with this logic, why blame the orcs for the draenei genocide? the legion would kill then anyway
    The most you can really accuse the Draenei of is that they didn't really give the Orcs a chance of self-determination in this case, that they decided what was best for them. Sure, that's dickish in its own way, even if the motives themselves might be well-intentioned. Warning the Orcs wouldn't have suddenly enabled them to fend off a Legion invasion. If they could have, it might have been negligence. But if the outcome is the same either way, I just don't see it.
    they as the egoist race they are who didn't want to plot with the lesser races, didn't give a shit to orcs or other races in draenor(yes not just orcs lived there) they never warned anyone, and if they would die at least they would not died corrupted and without free-will.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you think he just stumbled there, by accident, by mere coincidence, and not because they were following the draenei trail? come on now, be realistic
    He gave a quote to back it, but you're ignoring it like you've ignored everything else that blows holes in your victim blaming. You're just stubbornly repeating a meme in the finest traditions of every orc apologist. Bonus points, you have the audacity to call others biased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
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  11. #391
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    He gave a quote to back it, but you're ignoring it like you've ignored everything else that blows holes in your victim blaming. You're just stubbornly repeating a meme in the finest traditions of every orc apologist. Bonus points, you have the audacity to call others biased.
    the quote of the old source who said they were following the draenei trail? that one? sure

    you are the one who keep saying just horde player like to justify their bad things? both of you living proof of how that was wrong, that is a bonus point.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-24 at 07:28 AM.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the quote of the old source who said they were following the draenei trail? that one? sure

    you are the one who keep saying just horde player like to justify their bad things? both of you living proof of how that was wrong, that is a bonus point.
    But you still refuse to quote a supposedly contradicting new source. You literally told me to go to the Wiki and quote that, since it is supposedly updated, then complain about it anyway.

    Again, if you have something better, just quote it and we can discuss it.

    It says that he stumbled over it on his hunt, nothing about a trail left to be picked up. You act as if a hunt can only happen when you have some sniffing dog following a trail. But if you hunt people, you systematically go through places where they could potentially be hiding until you get lucky. You know that
    memetic movie quote from the fugitive?
    What I want out of each and every one of you is a hard target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse in that area.
    That's not just there to be funny or something. That's how you hunt down a person or a people. The Legion went out and sent scouts to different worlds, looking for Draenei traces, hence Talgath stumbling over Draenor. And hence the Legion came to many worlds anyway, whether there were Draenei or not.

  13. #393
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    But you still refuse to quote a supposedly contradicting new source. You literally told me to go to the Wiki and quote that, since it is supposedly updated, then complain about it anyway.

    Again, if you have something better, just quote it and we can discuss it.
    like i said, again? first, what "source" and for what are you looking for? that the burning legion was searching for then?

    Kil'jaeden was furious with Talgath's failure and what he felt was Velen's betrayal, and the demon vowed to hunt Velen and the rest of his followers to the ends of the cosmos if need be
    that is not even new source, rise of the world tells K'iljaden was hunting THEN

    again, in rise of the horde, it explicit says Kil'jaden keep searching and destroying the worlds that the draenei were. Not worlds at random that they may or may not be.
    For millennia, Kil'jaeden's scouts searched the Nether for the draenei, finding and destroying the worlds they had settled on, but they always managed to escape.
    but they always escape, pretty safe to say yes, the Legion was on their trail, not by mere coincidence

    Again, in Rise of the horde, they were searching for the draenei trail and they found this trail in draenor, and went to investigate and find the draenei were still there:

    Though they initially assumed it was just another one of the planets the draenei briefly stopped upon, further investigations quickly discovered that the draenei had actually settled there, even going so far as to give it an eredun name: Draenor, meaning "Exiles' Refuge"

    It says that he stumbled over it on his hunt, nothing about a trail left to be picked up. You act as if a hunt can only happen when you have some sniffing dog following a trail.
    However, no amount of preparation could keep the draenei hidden forever. Eventually, Talgath—after some 25,000 years of pursuit—stumbled upon Draenor sensing the sweet minting essence of eredar magic
    sorry what did you said? canon source in Rise of the horde, the book you said you are basing of, and it was not retconed by chronicle.

    Crystal clear again, he didn't stumbled there by acident THEN find their trail, he was following their trail of magic essence and found draenor because of it.


    But if you hunt people, you systematically go through places where they could potentially be hiding until you get lucky. You know that
    memetic movie quote from the fugitive?
    They went after their magic essence, yes like a sniffing dog, and they found the worlds they were because this magic trail, they left there and was found, and eventually the Legion found the draenei because they didn't leave


    That's not just there to be funny or something. That's how you hunt down a person or a people. The Legion went out and sent scouts to different worlds, looking for Draenei traces, hence Talgath stumbling over Draenor. And hence the Legion came to many worlds anyway, whether there were Draenei or not.
    they didn't send scouts at random, they went after the "eredar sweet essence", finding many world they were (in the following years, the draenei temporarily visited dozens of worlds aboard the Genedar: source chronicles 2) and destroying then all, because they had this trail
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-24 at 10:34 AM.

  14. #394
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    If the draenei never made it to Draenor, the chains of events that led to Argus the Unmaker's defeat wouldn't have happened, which means that the universe would have been decimated by Sargeras' new Dark Pantheon.

    So the draenei saved the entire cosmos. The orcs should commend them for once.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    like i said, again? first, what "source" and for what are you looking for? that the burning legion was searching for then?

    that is not even new source, rise of the world tells K'iljaden was hunting THEN

    again, in rise of the horde, it explicit says Kil'jaden keep searching and destroying the worlds that the draenei were. Not worlds at random that they may or may not be.

    but they always escape, pretty safe to say yes, the Legion was on their trail, not by mere coincidence

    Again, in Rise of the horde, they were searching for the draenei trail and they found this trail in draenor, and went to investigate and find the draenei still there.

    sorry what did you said? canon source in Rise of the horde, the book you said you are basing of, and it was not retconed by chronicles

    i will even put Talgath words(who happen to be in the wiki)

    They went after their magic sense, yes like a sniffing dog, and they found the worlds they were because this magic trail, they left there and was found, and eventually the Legion found the draenei because they didn't leave, crystal clear.


    they didn't send scouts at random, they went after the "eredar sweet essence", finding many world they were (in the following years, the draenei temporarily visited dozens of worlds aboard the Genedar: source chronicles 2) and destroying then all, because they had this trail
    Yeah, I read that and it's what I have been using. He stumbled upon Draenor, i.e. went there in his search and then noticed traces of Draenei presence. That's not the same as 'he followed the trail of essence to Draenor, where he found them'.

    * The Legion is looking for them.
    * They check worlds they can access for Draenei traces.
    * If they find, they definitely destroy.

    Heck, you even agreed to it in this very post. They check world for a trail and if they find it, they investigate closer. That's exactly what I said when I argued that the Legion found these worlds anyway. That is not 'bringing the Legion to Draenor'. The Legion came there anyway and just happened to find them as a bonus. Bringing them there would be if the Draenei left a trail on planet A that led the Legion to planet B. But, as is, Talgath was coming to Draenor one way or another.

    And at that point, the whole argument hinges on one specific interpretation. Specifically:
    For millennia, Kil'jaeden's scouts searched the Nether for the draenei, finding and destroying the worlds they had settled on, but they always managed to escape.
    That is what we know for sure. The assumption that you make is an interpretation of this, i.e. you infer from "they destroy worlds where they find Draenei traces" that "they leave alone any world without Draenei traces". The latter part is what I would want a source on, because it is the lynchpin this hinges on. If the Legion was going to destroy/subjugate/corrupt the worlds in its path anyway, then there really isn't much to blame the Draenei for there anyway. Thus, that needs to be cleared up before further discussion can take place.

  16. #396
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    By the way, Kil'jaeden would have gone at the very ends of the cosmos in his destructive campaign anyway, even if there were no draenei to hunt down. From 7.2 trailer:

    "A grand crusade that would reach the ends of creation. That was the vision you showed me."

    Kil'jaeden joined the Legion because Sargeras showed him that the Legion would conquer everything in creation. The draenei were just a bonus. The draenei most certainly are not what made Kil'jaeden attempt to destroy every world in the universe.

    So anyone who claims Draenor would've been fine without the draenei did not pay any attention whatsoever to the story.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  17. #397
    Because Blizz made Azeroth's history Alliance-centric. Everything relevant about EK is either human or dwarf focused, and Kalimdor is all about the night elves. Also, Alliance's past heroes are just that, heroes, while Horde's are horrible war criminals. Much like how WoD showcased.

  18. #398
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Yeah, I read that and it's what I have been using. He stumbled upon Draenor, i.e. went there in his search and then noticed traces of Draenei presence. That's not the same as 'he followed the trail of essence to Draenor, where he found them'.
    thats precisely what it means, he went searching the eredar essence, their magic, they detect that and follow then
    Heck, you even agreed to it in this very post. They check world for a trail and if they find it, they investigate closer.
    They don't check the world and then if find it the trace, they investigate

    they go to the world following their trail of magic and then investigate it

    That's exactly what I said when I argued that the Legion found these worlds anyway. That is not 'bringing the Legion to Draenor'. The Legion came there anyway and just happened to find them as a bonus
    No, they would not find "those worlds anyway" its explicit said the scouts searching the draenei only went, precisely in the planets they passed by, leaving their trail, and only those planets were destroyed

    Without the draeneis there Draenor would be ignored because nothing would lead the legion there.

    Bringing them there would be if the Draenei left a trail on planet A that led the Legion to planet B. But, as is, Talgath was coming to Draenor one way or another.
    There is nothing saying he was coming to draenor one way or another, thats simple nonexistent lore, he went there searching and following their trail, the eredar magic essence and found in many worlds, and destroyed those, draenor being one of those
    That is what we know for sure.
    * We know that the Scouts were searching and following draenei trail
    * We know they only stop on the planets the Draenei were, f, a dozen of then.
    * We know the draenei escaped dozen of worlds, leaving anything and anyone behind to burn
    * We know that in searching then, the legion detect the eredar magic, they fond the planet, investigated because they find it, and found the Draenei.

    That is what we know for sure, not that "well the legion would go to draenor anyway eventually and some day" thats your assumption, we can't possible say that since nothing would drawn the legion attention there, there was no powerful races to take over like the Aldrachi, natherzin or the annihilators, not a planet with world soul, not a world infested by the void nothing

    The legion only went to draenor because they were following the draenei.


    you infer from "they destroy worlds where they find Draenei traces" that "they leave alone any world without Draenei traces".
    they landed in dozen of worlds, life there and run away, if they landed were planets who support life, we know for certain other planets do have intelligent races and animal life, we can obviously guess they land in those, and they left without any other race in their ship

    Just mirror their behavior in draenor, completely exclusion from the other races and when they run away, they never help other draenor races to flee too, Arakkoa, Ogres, Saberon and others left to their own demise, they only got the Elekk with then because it suited

    If the Legion was going to destroy/subjugate/corrupt the worlds in its path anyway, then there really isn't much to blame the Draenei for there anyway. Thus, that needs to be cleared up before further discussion can take place.
    and with the same logic, since the Legion was going to destroy/subjugate/corrupt the worlds in its path anyway and would especially hunt down and kill all the draenei anyway, they were just postponing the inevitable, then there really isn't much to blame the orcs for there anyway.

    damn, now the alliance can't say a thing about the horde anymore.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-24 at 12:46 PM.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    thats precisely what it means, he went searching the eredar essence, their magic, they detect that and follow then


    They don't check the world and then if find it the trace, they investigate

    they go to the world following their trail of magic and then investigate it



    No, they would not find "those worlds anyway" its explicit said the scouts searching the draenei only went, precisely in the planets they passed by, leaving their trail, and only those planets were destroyed

    Without the draeneis there Draenor would be ignored because nothing would lead the legion there.



    There is nothing saying he was coming to draenor one way or another, thats simple nonexistent lore, he went there searching and following their trail, the eredar magic essence and found in many worlds, and destroyed those, draenor being one of those


    * We know that the Scouts were searching and following draenei trail
    * We know they only stop on the planets the Draenei were, f, a dozen of then.
    * We know the draenei escaped dozen of worlds, leaving anything and anyone behind to burn
    * We know that in searching then, the legion detect the eredar magic, they fond the planet, investigated because they find it, and found the Draenei.

    That is what we know for sure, not that "well the legion would go to draenor anyway eventually and some day" thats your assumption, we can't possible say that since nothing would drawn the legion attention there, there was no powerful races to take over like the Aldrachi, natherzin or the annihilators, not a planet with world soul, not a world infested by the void nothing

    The legion only went to draenor because they were following the draenei.




    they landed in dozen of worlds, life there and run away, if they landed were planets who support life, we know for certain other planets do have intelligent races and animal life, we can obviously guess they land in those, and they left without any other race in their ship

    Just mirror their behavior in draenor, completely exclusion from the other races and when they run away, they never help other draenor races to flee too, Arakkoa, Ogres, Saberon and others left to their own demise, they only got the Elekk with then because it suited


    and with the same logic, since the Legion was going to destroy/subjugate/corrupt the worlds in its path anyway and would especially hunt down and kill all the draenei anyway, they were just postponing the inevitable, then there really isn't much to blame the orcs for there anyway.

    damn, now the alliance can't say a thing about the horde anymore.
    So all your rambling to say that you can't hold accountable humans for taking trolls land. Gotcha!

  20. #400
    why are you rambling over the draenei?
    we know that they did what they did only because the naruu told so.
    they were even ready to leave azeroth and alliance in the short novel.
    so its a no point, draenei were right because their entire religion (i mean, a real religion) told so, orcs, and other countless races, were right because fuck the light and its plan.

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