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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Again with that narrative. The people hiding and running from the Legion are responsible for all that the Legion does. Sure, whatever. This is getting tiresome, really. I'll never agree with it, because I don't blame the victims for the crimes of the perps. I know that is a hard concept to grasp. And you will not let go of your quest to somehow turn them into the villains. As per usual, discussions in the lore forums aren't going to change anyone's minds.
    I really do wonder how anyone could claim the draenei are the villains of the story and not the orcs. You couldn't misinterpret the WoW franchise more if you tried.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I really do wonder how anyone could claim the draenei are the villains of the story and not the orcs. You couldn't misinterpret the WoW franchise more if you tried.
    Because people judge the orcs as a whole, you have to apply that to the draenei as well, meaning including the eredar. The moment you do that the orcs couldn't reach the level of destruction the people of argus brought upon the universe, even if they continued to slaughter their way across world for the next 20k years.

  3. #423
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And they did so to settle their ppl while orcs did not.
    the orcs did just that, since their world died, they went to azeroth to settled, so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    That's what you, for some reason, interpret it to mean. You quoted it yourself, the scouts searched the Twisting Nether. You claim that "searching" is the same as "following a trail precisely", which I really can't agree with. But if we can't agree on what "search" means, it's kind of pointless to continue discussing that at all.
    they searched the neither for their presence and magic essence, and where it went they follow

    of course you can keep thinking its at random and by mere coincidence of fates they end up in draenor, and that alone lift all the blame the draenei had but,well you do you

    I also don't get why you keep bringing up what the orcs did. Is there some kind of compulsion to absolve the Orcs for something they did under the influence of literal demons?
    apparently people here, think the orcs were the only to blame for everything bad with happened in warcraft, they had completely concisous of everything they did, because they by essence are ane vil race of monster, just like the guy who quoted you

    so i like to compare the nonsense arguments and their hypocrite ways, like when they claim other races should leave the planet because they "do not belong here" but are usurpers of land and killers themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Because people judge the orcs as a whole, you have to apply that to the draenei as well, meaning including the eredar. The moment you do that the orcs couldn't reach the level of destruction the people of argus brought upon the universe, even if they continued to slaughter their way across world for the next 20k years.
    more than majority of the eredar, a race full of knowledge and wisdom, follow willingly the burning legion, knowing damn well what they were doing, and set the cosmos corrupting and killing everyone.

    Night elves also had the thing with the Legion, the highborn and azshara, the event of sundering, again, advanced society knowing what they were going.

    But when the orcs, who live thousand of years with peace with the draenei, a race of naive and simple people got tricked and corrupted by an Eredar, following the draenei exiles. shit, the orcs, as a whole, are the most evil and wicked race who ever exist in this game man, no exception like the other ones, they are just bad.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    they searched the neither for their presence and magic essence, and where it went they follow

    of course you can keep thinking its at random and by mere coincidence of fates they end up in draenor, and that alone lift all the blame the draenei had but,well you do you

    apparently people here, think the orcs were the only to blame for everything bad with happened in warcraft, they had completely concisous of everything they did, because they by essence are ane vil race of monster, just like the guy who quoted you

    so i like to compare the nonsense arguments and their hypocrite ways, like when they claim other races should leave the planet because they "do not belong here" but are usurpers of land and killers themselves.
    But that's the thing, we actually don't know how exactly they searched. It's just stated that they sent scouts out to look for them, and describe Talgath finding Draenor as 'stumbling' over it. It's just as likely that they went about it like 'send out scouts to inhabitable worlds you find, look for Draenei traces, report back if you find them or anything else useful'. I mean, that's probably how they were looking for world souls too and it would make a lot of sense.

    If the Draenei left traces that could be somewhat easily followed, they really shouldn't have been able to stay ahead of the Legion, or should have believed that they could hide on Draenor for extended periods of time. That's why I think it is more likely to have played out like this, since otherwise it's kind of weird that the Legion would require thousands of years to find them.
    Unless Blizz comes out and states otherwise, that is how I interpret it. You are free to have a different interpretation, naturally. As I said, we just don't know details like that, so it's simply impossible to really make any calls.

    As for the Orcs.... I mean yeah, such people exist probably. My personal opinion is that, first, the Orcs, much like the Draenei, are not some kind of hivemind that always acts in unison. Some would have wanted to invade anyway, some would have preferred to just stick to their own devices. Some would have wanted to cooperate, some would have wanted to murder. And most of them were corrupted by the Legion without their knowledge. Don't really fault them for that. But I also don't fault those characters (!) that suffered from the invasions for example to still harbor resentment. They are just people, not omniscient creatures watching their universe from the outside, like we are. People, be they orc, draenei, human, undead or any of the myriad of elves, are just people. They have their flaws, they make mistakes. Warcraft is a tragedy, in many ways. Just not a really well-written one, most of the time.

  5. #425
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    But that's the thing, we actually don't know how exactly they searched. It's just stated that they sent scouts out to look for them, and describe Talgath finding Draenor as 'stumbling' over it.

    because of their magic essence, not because mere coincidence

    again, this is meaningless, i will not change my point of you, neither you, and this already derail the thread enough.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    They have their flaws, they make mistakes. Warcraft is a tragedy, in many ways. Just not a really well-written one, most of the time.
    Eh, after reading your posts versus Syegfryed I have to err on your interpretation of the Draenei. I wish Warcraft would embrace this a lot more, the tragic backdrops and cultural nuance the lore used to hint at. I think the tragedy of the Draenei has nothing to do with Draenor, and in fact, has everything to do with Argus.

    I know people like to bring up the Eredar that sided with the Legion as proof positive that the race as a whole is guilty, Draenei included. I would like to point out that the sins that the Man'ari are different to the sins of the Draenei. What the Draenei are guilty of is running, and the wrap-up of Legion (so far as the Draenei are concerned) brings this to the fore with Velen refusing to back down. In this sense, the Draenei are indeed guilty of corrupting the Orcs indirectly, but that tragedy is thread in the greater failure of their exile.

    I'd like to point out that one thing that shocked me was that there were still non-Man'ari Eredar left on Argus. The Naaru had only saved a fraction of the people, leaving the rest to suffer for literally thousands of years. And even still there were Draenei that became Lightforged, eschewing Velen's course and instead taking the fight back to the Legion. The grim reality is that Velen had the choice all along.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Again with that narrative. The people hiding and running from the Legion are responsible for all that the Legion does. Sure, whatever. This is getting tiresome, really. I'll never agree with it, because I don't blame the victims for the crimes of the perps. I know that is a hard concept to grasp. And you will not let go of your quest to somehow turn them into the villains. As per usual, discussions in the lore forums aren't going to change anyone's minds.
    I'm not saying they are bad they re just responsible as they didn't have to stop on the planets as priest order hall proved being responsible and bad is to different thing.

  8. #428
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Mechagnomes, iron dwarfs and iron vrykuls were created from the forge of wills much much later on and never fought the black empire while the original titanforged were made from the earth itself so still alian automatons who are defecting and influenced heavily by old god corruption so in this "defecting white blood cells contimated by the disease" as such only logical step is to purge them as curse of flesh is one of the worst old god corruptions even worse than emerald nightmare.

    While orcs are titanforged too by your logic and they were never contaminated by void.

    So give the world back to the antibodies who never were corrupted by the "disease"
    .
    didnt those antibodies destroy their own planet? oh wait....yea they did. then came over to the other planet and tried to do the same here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I really do wonder how anyone could claim the draenei are the villains of the story and not the orcs. You couldn't misinterpret the WoW franchise more if you tried.
    obviously varodoc you arent getting it! the draenei need to pave a road with orc bones and make a portal to some world and go on a killing spree! only then they will be able to blame someone else and absolve themselves!
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    didnt those antibodies destroy their own planet? oh wait....yea they did. then came over to the other planet and tried to do the same here.

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    obviously varodoc you arent getting it! the draenei need to pave a road with orc bones and make a portal to some world and go on a killing spree! only then they will be able to blame someone else and absolve themselves!
    So? atleast they aren't void corrupted and atleast most pure azerothian races are okay with them while alliance is most made of corrupten antibodies and race which wiped out 80% of original kalimndors landmass(according to wc3 manual) or alien invaders who are bring legion with them knowingly.

    Draenais brought legion knowingly and without them orcs wouldn't have being corrupted and secondly they could have stay indefinetly in in great dark beyond and twisting nether as priest order hall proved.

  10. #430
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    So? atleast they aren't void corrupted and atleast most pure azerothian races are okay with them while alliance is most made of corrupten antibodies and race which wiped out 80% of original kalimndors landmass(according to wc3 manual) or alien invaders who are bring legion with them knowingly.

    Draenais brought legion knowingly and without them orcs wouldn't have being corrupted and secondly they could have stay indefinetly in in great dark beyond and twisting nether as priest order hall proved.
    Without getting too much into your mental gymnastics to apologize how the orcs behaved, look at WoD and what it showed us regarding the orcs and their attitude. There was no corruption needed at all.

  11. #431
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    didnt those antibodies destroy their own planet? oh wait....yea they did. then came over to the other planet and tried to do the same here.
    obviously varodoc you arent getting it! the draenei need to pave a road with orc bones and make a portal to some world and go on a killing spree! only then they will be able to blame someone else and absolve themselves!
    corrupted by the legion and bounded by their will, i love how people forget that part.

    And by some people logic here, the planet would be destroyed and the people would be killed anyway by the legion, you can't blame then

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Without getting too much into your mental gymnastics to apologize how the orcs behaved, look at WoD and what it showed us regarding the orcs and their attitude. There was no corruption needed at all.
    Still deceive happened, they just changed kil'jaden for Garrosh.

    in the very expansion we see Draenei going for the legion by free will, but of course, we can't blame the draenei race, just the orc race
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-25 at 12:02 AM.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Without getting too much into your mental gymnastics to apologize how the orcs behaved, look at WoD and what it showed us regarding the orcs and their attitude. There was no corruption needed at all.
    Yeah just them seeing Garrosh as a prophet showing them how azerothian people are going treat them in interment camps forced to kill their loved onces as even elements said thpse vision were true so ofc the orcs would trust his word and him revealing all of Gul'dans machinations while chronicles 2 showed that orcs were extremely distrustful towards draenai ever sine gorian assaulted shattrath city and whole draenai handled it.

    So Garrosh being right in terms of elemental knowledge and revealing the gul'dans and legions plans wouldn't cause blind trust towards his words what would? Alsp as we later seen in AU draenor Garrosh was right about the draenais as you look at what draenais and yrel are doing.

  13. #433
    Brewmaster Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Alliance killed goblin miners first. And there was an assassination attempt at Sylvanas.
    Actually no, Horde Killed Alliance agents first, goblins didn't start dieing until the Alliance player shows up and they are told their agents where already killed at that point.

    As for point 2 I would remind you that that happens post WoD where open hostilities are already back in action in ashran where it is hinted at that the requilry attacked the explorers league, but we have no definitive "Horde did it" Ya or Na on that from blizzard yet. I would Also point out that it is still a viable chain of events that Azuna happens before stormhimelore lore wise, in which case it was more of a stop Sylvanas rather then purely assassination attempt.


    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    I was asking about Rhonin, who apparently wasn't Theramorian.
    If you recall though the one condition of Dalaran lending aid was that they would be used mostly to give time for the civilians to evacuate, and not as an offensive force. I would also remind you that we had a Horde mage betray (Almost certainly set up before hand) the Kirin'tor to slip in and sabotage the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Horde is the most of Azeroth's shaman population
    True, but most of the Shaman population is of a similar mindset to thrall and we see where he ended up...

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    and trolls worshipped wild gods before night elves started existing. And elements don't care about burning woods.
    Once again true but the trolls also started killing wild gods before the Nightelves where a thing, so that's probably why we got a mix of loyalties here. I would also point out a good Chunk of the wild gods seem to serve or at least respect Elune who is most definitely on the side of the Nightlelves.


    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    They do that only when it is needed. For example, when Jaina has to be put down to win a war.
    Or when you're raised and highly suggestible, and they want to point you at an enemy. Hell even when they supposedly don't, the choice is join us or die again. Even if it's not direct mind control, she most certainly isn't giving them free rain of their new lives. Turns out "Needed" may be quite often.

  14. #434
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    So? atleast they aren't void corrupted and atleast most pure azerothian races are okay with them while alliance is most made of corrupten antibodies and race which wiped out 80% of original kalimndors landmass(according to wc3 manual) or alien invaders who are bring legion with them knowingly.

    Draenais brought legion knowingly and without them orcs wouldn't have being corrupted and secondly they could have stay indefinetly in in great dark beyond and twisting nether as priest order hall proved.
    so who gets to decide which corruption is worse, fel vs void? got any lore to back that up or is that just another "opinion"?

    i guess you skipped WoD eh? you can blame the draenei when another race has the same chance as the orcs, with a guy coming from the future to warn them and they still choose going for the fel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    corrupted by the legion and bounded by their will, i love how people forget that part.

    And by some people logic here, the planet would be destroyed and the people would be killed anyway by the legion, you can't blame then

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    Still deceive happened, they just changed kil'jaden for Garrosh.

    in the very expansion we see Draenei going for the legion by free will, but of course, we can't blame the draenei race, just the orc race
    awesome bias there.
    "humans bad! they are corrupted by curse of flesh its all their fault! they wanted to be corrupted!"
    "orcs not bad! it wasnt their fault they were corrupted and blew up their planet! they didnt want to!"
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    Because outside from faction conflict expansions the Horde is utterly irrelevant for the story and Blizzard can't even be bothered to use or create proper factions for them.

    That is why i have to constantly follow fucking Brann Bronzebeard from the Explorers League around with my Horde characters, instead of following Highwatcher Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher from the Reliquary. Or why i have to follow Khadgar through WoD as a Horde character, instead of some Horde mage/warlock/shaman whatever doing his job. As, again, Blizzard can't even be arsed to build up a proper Horde mage like Rommath for example.
    I like how the best answer to OP question was completely ignored by him ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  16. #436
    Each race has skeletons in their closet, some a tad more than others, but ultimately not a single one of them is a saint, they all stooped to deplorable levels at one point, that is just how it is, which is fine. So lets get this thread back on track and just say once again, if blizz wasn't so lazy they would develop more characters and factions for either side.

  17. #437
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    awesome bias there.
    "humans bad! they are corrupted by curse of flesh its all their fault! they wanted to be corrupted!"
    "orcs not bad! it wasnt their fault they were corrupted and blew up their planet! they didnt want to!"
    im just flipping the logic alliance players use

    didn't felt good right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeht View Post
    I like how the best answer to OP question was completely ignored by him ...
    because it goes against the popular meme of horde favoritism, so people tend to ignore, but its already being said many times here that the horde didn't even had a proper faction to be neutral, the earthen ring don't even feel like it as created by thrall

  18. #438
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    im just flipping the logic alliance players use

    didn't felt good right?

    l
    awesome. you are now so lost in your mental gymnastics you are blaming other people for what you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Each race has skeletons in their closet, some a tad more than others, but ultimately not a single one of them is a saint, they all stooped to deplorable levels at one point, that is just how it is, which is fine. So lets get this thread back on track and just say once again, if blizz wasn't so lazy they would develop more characters and factions for either side.
    100% this. hopefully they develop more side factions for the horde so they constantly dont have to
    1. take the villain bat
    2. or play second fiddle in world saving.

    in story's defense. until now there hasnt been much of a chance to do that. now they do have it going forward, starting with legion.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    100% this. hopefully they develop more side factions for the horde so they constantly dont have to
    1. take the villain bat
    2. or play second fiddle in world saving.

    in story's defense. until now there hasnt been much of a chance to do that. now they do have it going forward, starting with legion.
    That would involve the Horde fanbase not being VERY vocal advocates for "crushing Alliance skulls" and sneering at the story as "nerd RP". Hasn't mattered what server, since at least late Wrath, any time I look Horde side, that's the kind of crap they say. Hell, this very forum was filled with advocates for the NuScourge and getting back to the evil WC2 Horde at the beginning of BfA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    3) Stealing land is fine so long as you have tusks and disgusting feet with only 2 toes.
    4) Genocides and other atrocities are okay if you can blame it all on the big meany who tricked you into it. The Horde wanted to gather flowers, honest!

    5) Not all the Horde races were in on the atrocities! The overwhelming majority were conscientious objectors, despite absolutely no basis in canon for that and explicit canon statements otherwise. The blues have no idea what they're talking about.

    6) Only a tiny minority of the Horde ever did anything not nice, and it's unfair that the entire Horde is blamed for it! Also, every last man, woman, and child of the Alliance gleefully signed up to eat babies.

    7) Three cow tents and a half dozen blood elves can never be repaid! Also, the Alliance should just get over the murderous rampages, cities burned to scorched earth, and multiple genocides.

    8) Fel is misunderstood. Just because it needs to agonizingly burn living souls for power doesn't make it evil!

    9) Someone wanting revenge on the Horde is crazy and warmongering. So what if their family was murdered in front of them or their city and everyone they knew or loved was blown to ashes?

    10) Alliance hates us because they're racist! Also, any character of a Horde race that isn't pro-Horde is a filthy traitor, and any character of an Alliance race fully represents the Alliance with its full blessing. Therefore the Scourge is Alliance. (Please don't mention Nerzhul...)


    Man, this is fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  20. #440
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    That would involve the Horde fanbase not being VERY vocal advocates for "crushing Alliance skulls" and sneering at the story as "nerd RP". Hasn't mattered what server, since at least late Wrath, any time I look Horde side, that's the kind of crap they say. Hell, this very forum was filled with advocates for the NuScourge and getting back to the evil WC2 Horde at the beginning of BfA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    4) Genocides and other atrocities are okay if you can blame it all on the big meany who tricked you into it. The Horde wanted to gather flowers, honest!

    5) Not all the Horde races were in on the atrocities! The overwhelming majority were conscientious objectors, despite absolutely no basis in canon for that and explicit canon statements otherwise. The blues have no idea what they're talking about.

    6) Only a tiny minority of the Horde ever did anything not nice, and it's unfair that the entire Horde is blamed for it! Also, every last man, woman, and child of the Alliance gleefully signed up to eat babies.

    7) Three cow tents and a half dozen blood elves can never be repaid! Also, the Alliance should just get over the murderous rampages, cities burned to scorched earth, and multiple genocides.

    8) Fel is misunderstood. Just because it needs to agonizingly burn living souls for power doesn't make it evil!

    9) Someone wanting revenge on the Horde is crazy and warmongering. So what if their family was murdered in front of them or their city and everyone they knew or loved was blown to ashes?

    10) Alliance hates us because they're racist! Also, any character of a Horde race that isn't pro-Horde is a filthy traitor, and any character of an Alliance race fully represents the Alliance with its full blessing. Therefore the Scourge is Alliance. (Please don't mention Nerzhul...)


    Man, this is fun.
    i think its just limited to this forum. Ive been playing horde on tichondrius for ages and alliance on cenarius. People in game dont share the view of the usual talking heads on this forum lol.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

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