Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Varodoc]

Top 10 villains in World of Warcraft:



I hope one day we can avenge the poor orcs who were forced to become slaves of the Legion because of those goat monsters.

[Terongor]

so who gets to decide which corruption is worse, fel vs void? got any lore to back that up or is that just another "opinion"?

i guess you skipped WoD eh? you can blame the draenei when another race has the same chance as the orcs, with a guy coming from the future to warn them and they still choose going for the fel.

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awesome bias there.
"humans bad! they are corrupted by curse of flesh its all their fault! they wanted to be corrupted!"
"orcs not bad! it wasnt their fault they were corrupted and blew up their planet! they didnt want to!"

Void as natural force serves void lord and their will see void elves who has to resist void lords whispers while fel doesn't really have that kind of draw back and at the same time void and light are naturally outside reality while other magical forces are inside so all by all fel is more natural to exists in reality as such its better.

I didn't and orcs had all logical reasons to wipe out draenai in wod and what happened now in au proves it. So you really don't undestand how desperate they were when they drank? they had being crushed on all fronts, lost most of their area heck their leaders powersbase was lost(nagrand) they only held tanaan jungle at that point they were at the point of beingg wiped out and they new drinking it was the only chance to win they had and Garrosh was gone at that point who was most trusted about their future.

One person blew it up so by your logic we can blame all of the alliance when malfurion blew 80% of kalimndors landmass (according to wc3)

[Syegfryed]

I hope one day we can avenge the poor orcs who were forced to become slaves of the Legion because of those goat monsters.

th goat monsters who deceive and corrupted to orcs to kill more goat monsters

draenei would died anyway man, did you now saw how the legion would end all the life in universe anyway?

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awesome. you are now so lost in your mental gymnastics you are blaming other people for what you do.

im lost in mental gymnastic because im flipping the alliance hypocrite statements like blaming the entire orcish race as objective evil race while they withewash other races just because the scale wasn't the same? rofl

This whole thread stat derailing because alliance players can't stay on topic and start their mental gymnastics blaming the orcs and the horde

[Aucald]

Blaming the Draenei for the actions of the Legion, specifically Kil'Jaeden, seems wrongheaded to me - the Draenei needed a world to settle as their numbers were unsustainable for long-term life aboard the Genedar. It's not the fault of the Draenei that the Legion were following them, nor was it the Draenei who had an omnicidal desire to end all creation as per the orders of their insane leader Sargeras. The true villain in both the stories of the Draenei and that of the Orcs is the Legion - it was the Legion who chased the Draenei across the stars, putting worlds to the torch because that was their mission to begin with (something they would've done with or without the Draenei factoring in to the picture). Likewise, it wasn't the fault of the Orcs that they were gulled and corrupted by an outside actor with malevolent intent, as well as magic and technology leagues beyond what was available to the Orcs.

The true villain of both story-arcs is the Legion itself, and it is the Legion's actions that led to the tragedy that befell both races - a tragedy that in many ways is still enacted today.

[matrix123mko]

Blaming the Draenei for the actions of the Legion, specifically Kil'Jaeden, seems wrongheaded to me - the Draenei needed a world to settle as their numbers were unsustainable for long-term life aboard the Genedar. It's not the fault of the Draenei that the Legion were following them, nor was it the Draenei who had an omnicidal desire to end all creation as per the orders of their insane leader Sargeras. The true villain in both the stories of the Draenei and that of the Orcs is the Legion - it was the Legion who chased the Draenei across the stars, putting worlds to the torch because that was their mission to begin with (something they would've done with or without the Draenei factoring in to the picture). Likewise, it wasn't the fault of the Orcs that they were gulled and corrupted by an outside actor with malevolent intent, as well as magic and technology leagues beyond what was available to the Orcs.

The true villain of both story-arcs is the Legion itself, and it is the Legion's actions that led to the tragedy that befell both races - a tragedy that in many ways is still enacted today.

To make it funnier, Legion isn't really that bad. They have their own reason to end all creation.

[Varodoc]

It's still the fault of the orcs if they drank the blood though. When Grommash tells Thrall that they willingly drank that blood, Thrall gets mad at how they could ever doom their people willingly. Because they knew there was a price to pay for that power, and they could've rejected the blood as WoD proves (though WoD also proves that they are inherently genocidal creatures who don't need the Legion to commit mass murder).

I mean, they got manipulated by Kil'jaeden. Not mind-controlled. At any point in time they could've stopped and gone back. They just decided not to. And that's why Thrall ultimately decided to settle in Durotar to atone for the sins of his people.

[Mehrunes]

Alliance doesn't have players trying to justify genocide, mass murder of civilians, and gleefully following omnicidal maniacs, but yeah, "equally". Sure.

Except for, I dunno, people saying Jaina was right to drown Orgrimmar and that she should have followed up on that. Even though one of the things contributing to her decision making there was the presence of an orphanage. Or even against their own interests because in an alternate timeline where Jaina did do that the Alliance was destroyed because it drove the rest of the Horde into overdrive.

Very much disagree.

There are no "lol its just a prank bro" excuses after commiting genocide and similar acts.
Horde gets such unrealistic treatment on a constant basis - and then goes around touting about "muh honor" xD

The only reason why Alliance is not making excuses is because its wrongdoings are not even acknowledged. Which is oh, so super realistic a treatment.

Imagine what would happen to king Varian Wrynn if he told his troops and people that, after all the misery and death and sacrifice to defeat garrosh, he has decided to "LOL FORGIVE BFF" the horde just cause his son anduin has a desire for some bain ****?
Both varian and anduin would be executed on the spot for treason by his own generals and commanders - not to mention torn apart by his own people if he would even live long enough to reach stormwind.

Except he didn't decide that because Anduin wanted some Baine stars. He decided that because he was in no position to fight. Alliance was thoroughly losing the war against the Horde and then still needed to team up with a part of the Horde against Garrosh. For crying out loud, Alliance ended up ceding territory to the Horde, which is a clear indication of their weak position. And that was covered in Alliance dialogue. As usual Alliance complaints are so immensely valid they are based on not knowing even their own side of the story.

How dare you use logic on this forum?

Just because something confirms your bias doesn't make it logical. Just a tip.

Pretending for even a second, that this doesn't apply to both sides of the fanbase, is just laughable.

Pretending? That's the truth! Horde players are known for kicking down Alliance's players dogs just for fun

[Aucald]

To make it funnier, Legion isn't really that bad. They have their own reason to end all creation.

I'm not sure wholesale omnicide is really the "answer" to the possibility of Void corruption - especially not when the Titans seem to have engineered corrective measures that worked to safeguard Titanic World-Souls. Were it not for Sargeras' pointed insistence on having his way, it seems likely that the universe was indeed protected from the threat of a Dark Titan.

We also don't know if a Dark Titan is even the universe-ending threat Sargeras feared it was. Considering that we've already fought and trapped a corrupted Titan (Sargeras himself) it seems likely that Sargeras was both wrong and overreacting to a potential threat (by attempting to sterilize the entire universe).

[Mehrunes]

Then are they really factions?

Kor'kron are like Praetorian Guard, elite troops guarding the warchief, to my knowledge. That's more of a job than a faction, unless you're telling me they've been built up a lot more than I noticed. As to clans, they were all subsumed, sorry united, into the Horde. That was the point during its founding by the Legion, no more inter-clan fighting, just one big, happy, mindless mob following Warchief Puppet. Clans haven't mattered for a LONG time, and WoD didn't exactly help.

Warsong, Frostwolves, Shadowmoon and even Dragonmaw say hello. Shattered Hand on the other hand has been transformed from a clan to a faction oriented around spying and whatnot available to all Horde members, which plays directly into @yani9841's point. But it's only Vanilla lore so you're excused not yet knowing something this recent.

Dalaran already existed BEFORE the pact with Silvermoon. It only became a city of mages after that, though.

Did it exist before its own individual pact with Silvermoon? Yes. Did it exist before humankind's pact with Silvermoon? No. And like @Terongor said, without Silvermoon they wouldn't have existed because otherwise the Amani would have wiped the humans out after they were done with the High Elves and the Arathor Empire wouldn't even form, let alone have an opportunity to fracture (which is how Dalaran came to be).

I can already tell that we two will not exactly come to any agreement, since we will never do, haha.
Anyway, I already acknowledged the priority system a few posts back.
The orc thing is like...what? The Legion didn't leave the orcs alone. After almost wiping out the Draenei, the Legion set them on a course to attack Azeroth through the dark portal. You know, the plot that Sargeras himself aided through possessing Medivh and that was covered by the first few games? And after that whole thing went southwards and Draenor collapsed, the Legion, heralded by Magtheridon, took control of Outland. Only the Mag'har remained somewhat unmolested. They didn't wipe them out because they took control of most Orcs not currently on Azeroth.
Kil'Jaeden had a vast interest in the Orcs as a subservient race to the Legion. Sure, he might have missed them initially if it wasn't for traces of Draenei magic left on Draenor, but there isn't exactly a guarantee of it. Not saying he would definitely have overlooked them, but also not that he definitely wouldn't have. There isn't exactly a lot we can say about this what is sort of thing.

That was Sargeras stepping in after Kil'Jaeden was already done with his vengeance. Only after that. After the Orcs were already hulked up on demon blood and actually proved themselves as potential tool for something more than killing a bunch of Draenei (which is what KJ thought of them when he found them long before Sargeras looked in that direction). It wasn't something the Legion planned from the get go. And even then Saregeras remained dormant for a few years during which the Orcs were so lost and desperate they started turning on each other.

Which is basically the exact problem I have with the cat-and-mouse argument you brought up. Well that and blaming the mouse for trying to survive. But yeah, it's all based on a massive 'if-then' assumption, i.e. that the Draenei definitely caused the extinction of races that would have been preventable otherwise. We can debate likelihoods all we want, but those are just based on even more assumptions. It will lead nowhere. We all have our opinion of what happened and that is fine, as long as no one claims to know an absolute truth here. Unless Blizz flat-out states that the Draenei caused races to perish that otherwise wouldn't have had - or the opposite- there really is no point to all this.

I'm sorry, but since when is "just trying to survive" a get out of jail free card for everything you do? If they pulled the Lighbound and tried to forcibly convert the people of the worlds they visited into members of the Army of Light to fight the Legion, would that also be OK? What if they instead followed the Legion's example and decided to bathe the worlds they departed in holy fire to deprive the Legion of potential soldiers just like the Legion was trying to deprive the Void of a foothold in the material plane? Or let's use Stellaris as an example since I'm playing it a lot recently because of the new DLC. One of the potential late game threats in it is the Prethoryn Scourge, which is the Zerg/Tyranid/Flood of that setting. Which invade the player's galaxy to scour it of all resources because they are fleeing from something even worse. Does that make them turning entire worlds into food and breeding lairs somehow OK? How is Draenei's negligence, callousness and dismissal of everything not Draenei any different?

And I didn't say a word about them definitely causing anything. I said they didn't do shit to inform the people they put in Legion's crosshair (or, more specifically, how your excuse for that doesn't actually excuse them). At which point those what ifs of yours don't apply. Especially since we actually do know from Blizzard's own story how callous the Draenei were about other races they crossed paths with. From Velen's own short story. In which, even putting aside all their past of traveling the stars and what they did there, the Draenei were still willing to abandon the Azerothian races to their extinction. Even those that helped them out. Even though in this case they knew for sure this world was a target of the Legion. Because it already has been. Once even after their own arrival to this planet.

But it didn't matter for shit to them because what is just one world and its inhabitants to the Draenei. Absolutely nothing, that's what. Because they were "fighting" a "much larger war" (by doing fuck all other than fleeing for 25 millennia and dragging Talgath right behind them) so they were vindicated. And even when Velen pulled his head out of his own ass, it's only after he saw a vision of Anduin and his holy bones leading the Army of Light composed mostly of Azerothian races. So even his final decision to stay wasn't motivated by anything particularly good, it was motivated by him treating the people of Azeroth instrumentally. One could even say, arrows in his quiver...

Anyway, apparently Chronicles has information in it that makes Rise of the Horde unreliable, so I'm not going to bother with that other point and wait until someone gives me excerpts of that.

I only mentioned Rise of the Horde in regards to Talgath's quest and Chronicles changed nothing in that regard.

[Aucald]

It's still the fault of the orcs if they drank the blood though. When Grommash tells Thrall that they willingly drank that blood, Thrall gets mad at how they could ever doom their people willingly. Because they knew there was a price to pay for that power, and they could've rejected the blood as WoD proves (though WoD also proves that they are inherently genocidal creatures who don't need the Legion to commit mass murder).

I mean, they got manipulated by Kil'jaeden. Not mind-controlled. At any point in time they could've stopped and gone back. They just decided not to. And that's why Thrall ultimately decided to settle in Durotar to atone for the sins of his people.

A couple Orcs who drank Mannoroth's blood willingly doesn't circumscribe the entire Orcish race - and we know as a matter of lore (e.g. "Rise of the Horde") that the majority of the Orcs had no idea what was in the Chalice of Unity. That's why Ner'zhul's missive to Durotan was so important, and Durotan and Orgrim were among the few (outside the Shadow Council) who knew of the contents and specifics of the Legion's involvement with the Horde. Once they drank Mannoroth's blood they were indeed essentially mind-controlled by the Legion through Mannoroth, but until that point they were manipulated via Kil'Jaeden masquerading as the Orcish ancestor spirits and the voices of the elements.

You can certainly blame them for being tricked, although this too carries a degree of victim-blaming akin to blaming the Draenei for the actions of the Legion that pursued them across the cosmos. We can split hairs about degrees of blame and the like, but at the end of the day I maintain both the Draenei and the Orcs were victims of the Legion's actions.

[Mehrunes]

Let's be real here, no one had knowledge of Netherlight Temple during the original flight of the Naaru because it hadn't been invented yet on the meta level. That's what retroactive continuity does, if it is applied haphazardly - the Draenei suddenly have the technology to not just create footholds in the Twisting Nether indefinitely, but also hide them from the Legion. But they just for some reason decided to never use that to save more of their people in the past because Blizz didn't bother to close that plot hole.

As for the short story, it also never stated that they didn't try to help anyone they met. I'm not sure if even states that they met intelligent life outside that one instance. Yet, people here claim with absolute certainty somehow that they are responsible for the doom of, what was it, millions of species?

But there is no plot hole. We know that Velen was following his visions and the will of the Naaru. So there is no conflict between what he did and Blizzard adding new abilities to the dimensional ships. Why didn't he cloak his ship like the Lightforged Draenei did? He had a vision warning him against that. Why didn't he slip into the Nether like the other ship? Naaru told him not to. We had a repeat of how he was a blind follower until now as recently as Legion. Blizzard could make it so that the ship is capable of turning a Titan into mush and it wouldn't change a thing. Because the Draenei weren't in control. They were simply following a preexisting plan like a bunch of lemmings.

If the draenei never made it to Draenor, the chains of events that led to Argus the Unmaker's defeat wouldn't have happened, which means that the universe would have been decimated by Sargeras' new Dark Pantheon.

So the draenei saved the entire cosmos. The orcs should commend them for once.

But Orcs genociding the Draenei is a part of that chain of events. By your logic the Draenei should thank them as well.

In this thread, we're reminded once again that Horde apologists think:

1) Someone being chased by serial murderers is to blame for the murderers' actions.
2) Someone being chased by serial murderers should allow themselves to be killed.

More like we are reminded you can't make a post without a quip about dem Horde posters boogeyman and you can't make that quip without showing a handful of fallacies into it. Draenei's negligence in handling the Legion threat and warning the worlds they inhabited about it is, you know, a different thing from the Legion's own actions once it arrived in pursuit of the Draenei. And no one said a word about how the Draenei should allow themselves to be killed (it was however mentioned how later lore showed that they could use their ship in a manner that would make them harder to track). But you sure beat that straw-man!

3) Stealing land is fine so long as you have tusks and disgusting feet with only 2 toes.

What land did the Trolls steal again?

Well, how did the entire race of the orcs (or mostly as 99%) get under said influence? They got tricked (meaning they are total moron and bloodthirsty by nature as we saw with the Iron Horde), and Horde fans can't have that. Too bad, I really did like the way that Thrall did carve for his ppl but the writers did not follow it.

You do realize the AU Orcs were also tricked, right?

[Varodoc]

A couple Orcs who drank Mannoroth's blood willingly doesn't circumscribe the entire Orcish race - and we know as a matter of lore (e.g. "Rise of the Horde") that the majority of the Orcs had no idea what was in the Chalice of Unity. That's why Ner'zhul's missive to Durotan was so important, and Durotan and Orgrim were among the few (outside the Shadow Council) who knew of the contents and specifics of the Legion's involvement with the Horde. Once they drank Mannoroth's blood they were indeed essentially mind-controlled by the Legion through Mannoroth, but until that point they were manipulated via Kil'Jaeden masquerading as the Orcish ancestor spirits and the voices of the elements.

You can certainly blame them for being tricked, although this too carries a degree of victim-blaming akin to blaming the Draenei for the actions of the Legion that pursued them across the cosmos. We can split hairs about degrees of blame and the like, but at the end of the day I maintain both the Draenei and the Orcs were victims of the Legion's actions.

Not really victims, because no one was forcing them to drink or mind-controlling them. Yes, they got manipulated into drinking the blood, just like Arthas was manipulated into taking up Frostmourne or the Horde were manipulated into burning Teldrassil. Yet no one ever called them victims. Saying that the orcs were victims back then is like saying that the Horde were Sylvanas' victims in BfA.

[Mehrunes]

But that's the thing, we actually don't know how exactly they searched. It's just stated that they sent scouts out to look for them, and describe Talgath finding Draenor as 'stumbling' over it. It's just as likely that they went about it like 'send out scouts to inhabitable worlds you find, look for Draenei traces, report back if you find them or anything else useful'. I mean, that's probably how they were looking for world souls too and it would make a lot of sense.

If the Draenei left traces that could be somewhat easily followed, they really shouldn't have been able to stay ahead of the Legion, or should have believed that they could hide on Draenor for extended periods of time. That's why I think it is more likely to have played out like this, since otherwise it's kind of weird that the Legion would require thousands of years to find them.
Unless Blizz comes out and states otherwise, that is how I interpret it. You are free to have a different interpretation, naturally. As I said, we just don't know details like that, so it's simply impossible to really make any calls.

But Talgath was always a step behind them. At least that's what Rise of the Horde says. Because Legion told us that on occasion Legion was actually ahead of them. Like they did when Draenei were going to Shar'gel, where Legion prepared a trap for them.

[Syegfryed]

Blaming the Draenei for the actions of the Legion, specifically Kil'Jaeden, seems wrongheaded to me - the Draenei needed a world to settle as their numbers were unsustainable for long-term life aboard the Genedar. It's not the fault of the Draenei that the Legion were following them, nor was it the Draenei who had an omnicidal desire to end all creation as per the orders of their insane leader Sargeras. The true villain in both the stories of the Draenei and that of the Orcs is the Legion - it was the Legion who chased the Draenei across the stars, putting worlds to the torch because that was their mission to begin with (something they would've done with or without the Draenei factoring in to the picture). Likewise, it wasn't the fault of the Orcs that they were gulled and corrupted by an outside actor with malevolent intent, as well as magic and technology leagues beyond what was available to the Orcs.

The true villain of both story-arcs is the Legion itself, and it is the Legion's actions that led to the tragedy that befell both races - a tragedy that in many ways is still enacted today.

its what im trying to say all the time, but people keep insisting is all orc fault and they are the only to blame, when both races did stupid things and wrong decisions to

the only thing i disagree is that the legion would went to draenor without the draeneis there, only god would know how many millennia the Legion would reach draenor, why they would waste time there when serious matters were more important, like searching world souls and since there is no race advanced or powerful enough like the eradar itself, the aldrachi or the netherzin to call their attention, it don't make sense

[Aucald]

Not really victims, because no one was forcing them to drink or mind-controlling them. Yes, they got manipulated into drinking the blood, just like Arthas was manipulated into taking up Frostmourne or the Horde were manipulated into burning Teldrassil. Yet no one ever called them victims. Saying that the orcs were victims back then is like saying that the Horde were Sylvanas' victims in BfA.

I don't really see the two situations as equatable, myself - Sylvanas did indeed manipulate the Horde in BfA, but her manipulations required considerable buy-in from the Horde itself which ultimately makes the majority of them culpable for their actions. This is a far cry from the Legion's gross manipulation of the very spirituality of the Orcs, from co-opting the ancestor spirits to masquerading as the voices of the Elements (the very things the Orcish clans on Draenor revered as most would their tribal gods). I don't consider "force" alone to be the sole arbiter of responsibility - while it's true the Legion didn't put a proverbial gun to the Orcs' collective head and make them do it, they successfully and deviously removed the appearance of every other choice and drove the Horde down the path of their choosing.

If the Orcs were a person, they were basically the victim of a malicious conman (the Legion) and a campaign of gaslighting and coercion. As I said above, you can certainly blame them for being tricked, but you'd still be blaming the victims of an outside force above and beyond its ability to forestall. If the Orcs *had* somehow disobeyed, it's likely the Legion would've just destroyed them out of hand like they had countless worlds prior.

[Nerovar]

Not really victims, because no one was forcing them to drink or mind-controlling them. Yes, they got manipulated into drinking the blood, just like Arthas was manipulated into taking up Frostmourne or the Horde were manipulated into burning Teldrassil. Yet no one ever called them victims. Saying that the orcs were victims back then is like saying that the Horde were Sylvanas' victims in BfA.

Come on. This is Warcraft. Only certified bad guys are responsible for their actions and can therefor be held accountable.

If the Orcs were a person, they were basically the victim of a malicious conman (the Legion) and a campaign of gaslighting and coercion. As I said above, you can certainly blame them for being tricked, but you'd still be blaming the victims of an outside force above and beyond its ability to forestall. If the Orcs *had* somehow disobeyed, it's likely the Legion would've just destroyed them out of hand like they had countless worlds prior.

Didn't WoD basically show that they're very much capable of doing the exact same shit without being "the victim of a malicious conman" because they've got a pretty massive hard on for conquest and murdering people.

[Syegfryed]

Not really victims, because no one was forcing them to drink or mind-controlling them.

they never knew that shit was demon blood, they willingly drink something they tough was the only way of victory, and only a few orcs did, the corruption and bloodlust was systematically and affected everyone else who had no say in their fates, everyone was corrupted and enslaved by a evil force by the crime of a few who got fooled and deceived, and you are going to tell me they are not rly victims LUL

If they ever knew it was demon blood, Grom would never drink that

We bringing wod crap prove nothing, since there will always be bad people in their own race, just like the draenei also joining the legion there

Kill'rog drank and just like before the others get corrupted by the act.

[Varodoc]

Come on. This is Warcraft. Only certified bad guys are responsible for their actions and can therefor be held accountable.


Didn't WoD basically show that they're very much capable of doing the exact same shit without being "the victim of a malicious conman" because they've got a pretty massive hard on for conquest and murdering people.

WoD showed us that many orcs have no problem accepting the Fel, knowing full well of the consequences, if the war they started is going badly. As we saw with Kilrogg and pretty much the entirety of the Iron Horde left by 6.1.

If the Orcs were a person, they were basically the victim of a malicious conman (the Legion) and a campaign of gaslighting and coercion. As I said above, you can certainly blame them for being tricked, but you'd still be blaming the victims of an outside force above and beyond its ability to forestall. If the Orcs *had* somehow disobeyed, it's likely the Legion would've just destroyed them out of hand like they had countless worlds prior.

So like Arthas then, a character who gets a lot of hate from those same people who then justify the orcs.

[Aucald]

Didn't WoD basically show that they're very much capable of doing the exact same shit without being "the victim of a malicious conman" because they've got a pretty massive hard on for conquest and murdering people.

Capable yes, but we're talking about the events as they happened in the primary timeline, not in some fractured fairy tale timeline in another universe where events happened differently on multiple levels. I think the error in this line of thinking is the assumption that the Orcs of the WoD timeline are the same as those of the main timeline - we know they aren't, after all; and many events and circumstances on AU Draenor depart significantly from the primary timeline. Also, the Orcs of AU Draenor were manipulated by a malicious conman - except in their case it was Garrosh Hellscream from the relative future, gulling them into going to war for pretty much the same reason as the Legion originally did. How many degrees of mitigating circumstance is that? I don't think there's an easy answer for that one.

I'm also not saying "give the Horde a free pass for their atrocities" either, I do think there's a goodly amount of fault you could lay at their feet. That being said, I also acknowledge them as victims of the Legion in the main timeline, and victims of a time-travelling charlatan in the AU timeline.

[kasuke06]

Alliance: OW why the fuck did you punch me!?

Horde: Your fault for getting too close while I'm having my... like 5th(?) psychotic breakdown in 10 years!

Alliance: All is forgiven then because holy shit I am way too nice for idiot-ball holding reasons.