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  1. #561
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    After he had merged with him. Little bit different than when he was serving as a DK champion.
    but still was him inside him, and he killed Ner'zhul, meaning he was the only one, if he was being mindcontrolled all along pretty sure he would have said that in his monologue, or his decisions would be lot different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    they havent associated the law of sympathy to the blood haze. specifically it is applied to arcane magic, rather than fel energy as far as wow is concerned. we can assume (problem) that blood haze might be arcane in nature as demons have indeed used arcane, but the evidence is more that it is felbased due to it being called felblood at times and it is quite literally from the blood of a demon.
    Fel magic is very similar to arcane magic and sometimes even better to do some things like portals, why it would not be the same thing just in different magic source?? and its canon fact, only few orcs drink it, Grom and varok were exemjples, Ogrin didn't, yet, every one of the orcs got corrupted and not just corrupted, but bounded to the Legion and Manoroth

    Mannoroth:"The orcs are mine by right, and I will claim them
    Tichondrius says the blood pact bind all orcs, not just the ones who drink it., law of sympathy

    Tichondrius: Yes, but so are yours. The blood pact that you made with the orcs long ago still binds them to you. You need only recharge their energies.
    iam not saying WoD is a work of art. I am saying that since they made the game part of the story, whether we as players like it or not, it is now canon.
    even as a clusterfuck didn't changed much, by wod we can only gather is that some orcs evena round could resist by "iron will" and sometimes by some reason they just go gray instead of green, and when you drink demon blood, a skull in your beard suddenly transform into 3

    my point is slightly different. its that, since over time we are being told that arthas was being spoken to and such we dont really have much of an idea how he was being controlled or influenced or even if they are two different things. in the initial game we had no idea that frostmourne was talking to him. or that nerzhul spoke to him. we got that bit of info in the last expac. similarly we do not know how specifically manoroth controlled or compelled the orcs. we can assume, but you already know my misgivings on assumptions. which is why the only thing i can say with surety is that both are at fault for falling to tricks/schemes or w.e.
    without ner'zhul and his influence arthas still did what he wanted anyway, and frostmourne were mere whispers, and when the LK lost control of the powerful undead, arthas would also be "free" like sylvanas, but he did it anyway.

    Manoroth and the legion presence induced the orcs with bloodlust, we see with Grom in the campaign where He fight humans against thrall order, where he said the demons were coming, then he come to his senses

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    without ner'zhul and his influence arthas still did what he wanted anyway, and frostmourne were mere whispers, and when the LK lost control of the powerful undead, arthas would also be "free" like sylvanas, but he did it anyway.
    Alternately, the LK used his remaining power to summon his champion to come and save him from Illidan.

  3. #563
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    but still was him inside him, and he killed Ner'zhul, meaning he was the only one, if he was being mindcontrolled all along pretty sure he would have said that in his monologue, or his decisions would be lot different.
    "pretty sure" is not enough to make a proofed claim. we dont know because it hasnt been said so.


    Fel magic is very similar to arcane magic
    actually fel is directly opposite to arcane in the cosmology map. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_forces
    arcane is order. fel is chaos. they are fundamentally different.

    and sometimes even better to do some things like portals, why it would not be the same thing just in different magic source??
    because there is no proof of it and iam not going to assume to make an argument on assumptions. if its not explicitly stated then its not fact canon.

    and its canon fact, only few orcs drink it, Grom and varok were exemjples, Ogrin didn't, yet, every one of the orcs got corrupted and not just corrupted, but bounded to the Legion and Manoroth
    you do not know that. there is no proof anywhere of specifically how the others got it. in the one from ashenvale, grom specially urges them to drink
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77baYweLQk 25:24. there is no radiation thing. the words are very specific "come my warriors, drink from the waters and you will be reborn". That is all the proof thats needed. anything else is us assuming or inferring. Which would be irrelevant because we got a direct quote in a cinematic saying otherwise. The only argument would be, was it the same back in draenor? Or in WoD? did they drink again urged by Guldan in draenor and Kilrog/Guldan in WoD? As per Twilight of the Aspects, "Even those who did not partake found themselves with an unquenchable thirst for slaughter".
    So:
    1. we know they drank in ashenvale
    2. we know warchiefs drank in draenor
    3. we do not know how many drank in draenor if any besides the warchiefs
    4. we do not know how many drank in WoD if any besides kilrog/guldan

    anything beyond that is assumption.


    Tichondrius says the blood pact bind all orcs, not just the ones who drink it., law of sympathy
    law of sympathy was never used by tichondrius. you can imply that, but he never said that. the only place that is even mentioned is for arcane magic. and as already proven, arcane and fel are fundamentally different. There is no proof to refute the cosmology map.

    without ner'zhul and his influence arthas still did what he wanted anyway, and frostmourne were mere whispers, and when the LK lost control of the powerful undead, arthas would also be "free" like sylvanas, but he did it anyway.
    this is incorrect because Arthas was never really enslaved (one of the primary reasons why he might be in the Maw). And also incorrect because while the lich king was weakened he still summoned arthas to icecrown. Control or not, we know there was communication. the level of control we have no idea about.
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  4. #564
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "pretty sure" is not enough to make a proofed claim. we dont know because it hasnt been said so.
    if he was being controled by ner'zhul when he killed him he would be "good again" but he was evil, so no, no mindcontrol here

    actually fel is directly opposite to arcane in the cosmology map. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_forces
    arcane is order. fel is chaos. they are fundamentally different.
    this don't contract what i say, they are similar not the same, fel magic can be used in place of arcane magic with things like portals and the portals become better with it

    because there is no proof of it and iam not going to assume to make an argument on assumptions. if its not explicitly stated then its not fact canon.
    there is no proof? what about the Jornal of archmage antonitas who explict says fel magic can crate portals can be made twice as large and last ten times as long than arcane portals? why are you jumping in the conclusion this not fact canon?


    you do not know that. there is no proof anywhere of specifically how the others got it.
    what case are you even talking about? the first one we do have, Orgrin didn't drink demon blood and he got corrupted all the same, just like others how do you explain that then?
    in the one from ashenvale, grom specially urges them to drink
    he urges the ones with him, not everyone cause not everyone was with him and when he went back his men were already corrupted.



    there is no radiation thing. the words are very specific "come my warriors, drink from the waters and you will be reborn". That is all the proof thats needed
    the proof is have is that only grom and the orcs with him drink the blood, not the ones in his camp, neither the kodos.

    The only argument would be, was it the same back in draenor?
    Yes, not everyone drink it, few of then did, and only important characters and chieftains

    anything beyond that is assumption.
    that alone is assumption since you are ignoring sources

    law of sympathy was never used by tichondrius.
    i never said he said it, i think is pretty much clear that i said it

    and as already proven, arcane and fel are fundamentally different. There is no proof to refute the cosmology map.
    and i never said they were different neither was trying to refute the cosmology map

    you seem to be very passive-aggressive because of the subject earlier

    this is incorrect because Arthas was never really enslaved
    exactly, he was not mind controlled, case closed

  5. #565
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    this don't contract what i say, they are similar not the same, fel magic can be used in place of arcane magic with things like portals and the portals become better with it
    fel and arcane are on opposite ends of the map. one clearly says chaos and the other says order. this is not being passive aggresive this is quite literally word for word what it is. red does not equal blue just because they are colors. they are fundamentaly different. you can make void portals too. so what then? fel, void and arcane are the same? we already know the void hates the fel and vice versa (multiple proofs of that).

    i do not care much for similarities. i call what i see. what i see is a cosmology map. you have yet to give me a single link to refute that map.

    there is no proof? what about the Jornal of archmage antonitas who explict says fel magic can crate portals can be made twice as large and last ten times as long than arcane portals? why are you jumping in the conclusion this not fact canon?
    how about you give me a link, because so far you have given me similarities. a link with an actual statement equating fel and arcane. i really dont care if its similar.

    what case are you even talking about? the first one we do have, Orgrin didn't drink demon blood and he got corrupted all the same, just like others how do you explain that then?

    he urges the ones with him, not everyone cause not everyone was with him and when he went back his men were already corrupted.
    what iam saying is very clear, unless there is worded proof its all assumption and inference. you are making conclusions about something that hasnt been totally explained. how did Guldan cultivate the blood haze? how did they get controlled? do you know? can you link it? if not then you are assuming.

    i never said he said it, i think is pretty much clear that i said it
    And thats what im telling you. YOU said it. that doesnt mean its canon or makes it apply. Unless tichondrius or some in game item mentions it, it does NOT apply.

    you seem to be very passive-aggressive because of the subject earlier
    that is definitely not the case. ive already told you. i dont work with assumptions.

    exactly, he was not mind controlled, case closed
    was Garona mind controlled? if yes why? if no why?
    was Varok mind controlled? if yes why? if no why?
    Last edited by Minikin; 2020-03-26 at 01:37 AM.
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  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yeah, because in that case, the Thrall's Horde would be the same than the first Horde.
    This is different. It was Doomhammer who made Thrall warchief.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Or the Roman Empire would be the same as the Byzantine Empire. That's what Metzen was referring to. The Grand Alliance is the Alliance of Lordaeron as its spiritual successor, which carries on its ideals and traditions, but it's very clearly not the same organization as it operates from a completely different base.

    Plus it's even stated in the official story section in the official WoW website that the Grand Alliance was formed by Stormwind after the Third War, and that Ironforge and Gnomeregan pledged themselves to it (why would they need to do it again if the Alliance of Lordaeron never ceased to be?).

    Also if I'm not mistaken Arthas at the end of the King Arthas mission in WC3 says something like "At last, the Alliance is no more."
    This is important thing to note, as it proves that Stormwind and its Alliance have no claim for northern Eastern Kingdoms.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  7. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he knew the pool was cursed by some demon magic, only thing he knew, and again, he was already affected by the bloodlust.

    he even was surprised when manoroth shows up later, thinking he was free.
    he didn't know it was demonic cursed even in wc3, hence why i gave example of just few missions earlier we cleansed a cursed well easily, showing that curses aren't that big deal
    or in 0.0 reforge they clarify he knew it was demonic ? from what i saw they didn't even change written lines

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    didnt say he was. just saying that there was something happening behind the scenes. similarly with the orcs, all we know of the control is the blood haze mentioned by grom. they dont really explain how does Mannoroth exercise control over them.
    they did ?
    It is simple, demon blood is like drug, they make u extremely aggressive, to degree u'll rape and kill ur own kind, as shown in Rise of the Horde, where after orcs killed all (known) Draenei, they started to kill each others, wiping out entire clans, which as far i know is still official lore and didn't change
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  8. #568
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    fel and arcane are on opposite ends of the map. one clearly says chaos and the other says order. this is not being passive aggresive this is quite literally word for word what it is. red does not equal blue just because they are colors. they are fundamentaly different. you can make void portals too. so what then? fel, void and arcane are the same? we already know the void hates the fel and vice versa (multiple proofs of that).
    when did i said they are the same?
    i do not care much for similarities. i call what i see. what i see is a cosmology map. you have yet to give me a single link to refute that map.
    again, i don't want to "refute the map"

    how about you give me a link, because so far you have given me similarities. a link with an actual statement equating fel and arcane. i really dont care if its similar.
    i did give you the source, you could as well went there no?

    but anyway:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Journal_of_Archmage_Antonidas
    A student of mine asked me today, "Why are there so many limitations on traditional portals, when Fel portals can be made twice as large and last ten times as long?
    and in the fel link of wowpedia we can find a lot of uses of fel similar to arcane

    Like making yourself invisible, to scry and even heal

    I refuse to believe that that their efficiency so soundly trumps the common criticisms of being unstable or "evil" that these schools hold the monopoly of avenues for magical progress.

    what iam saying is very clear, unless there is worded proof its all assumption and inference. you are making conclusions about something that hasnt been totally explained. how did Guldan cultivate the blood haze? how did they get controlled? do you know? can you link it? if not then you are assuming.
    there is no assumption for god sake, not everyone drink demon blood but everyone got corrupted because affected everyone of the race, what more you want?

    And thats what im telling you. YOU said it. that doesnt mean its canon or makes it apply. Unless tichondrius or some in game item mentions it, it does NOT apply.
    of course it applies, we are seeing exactly their effects, just because didn't give a name to the effect didn't mean the effect didn't happened

    from the blood curse wiki:

    The Blood Curse enslaving the orcs to the Legion may function based on the law of sympathy. Being a part of the demon's body, blood would have a very strong sympathy and link the imbiber to the source of the blood. Through this link, a powerful demon could influence and control the imbibers. When that demon is killed, the sympathy is broken and they become free, as we saw with the orcs after Mannoroth's death.
    only chieftains and some orcs did drink demon blood
    but the entire race - safe the ones far away in quarentene - got corrupted and bounded to the legion will the same way.
    it happened again in warcraft 3, grom and some orcs drink it, it was enough to revived the curse and fuck the others in the camp

    And when manoroth died, the curse/sympathy is lift, and they are all free.

    Thats canon fact, what more you want?


    was Garona mind controlled? if yes why? if no why?
    was Varok mind controlled? if yes why? if no why?
    im having a hard time to see the interaction here, and what one thing have to do with another.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-26 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #569
    Stood in the Fire Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    the high elves of Quel'thalas sent some official help as well, it wasn't just volunteers,
    WC3 Manual says that they officially left the Alliance and so the Silver Hand Priests and the Kirin Tor Mages/Sorceresses were "volunteers"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, don't get me wrong - I'm not an echo chamber and I can recant the Alliance of Lordaeron =/= Grand Alliance narrative today but I'm still confused on these things:

    1. The Wildhammer Dwarves were still part of the Alliance of Lordaeron but it took them until Cataclysm to formally join the Alliance
    2. The Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn, and Brotherhood of the Light are Alliance of Lordaeron factions (that even includes Dwarves and High Elves) but not Alliance factions
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves

    Dammit Blizzard once again forgot to create an icon for Apprentice Wizard in Reforged

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    WC3 Manual says that they officially left the Alliance and so the Silver Hand Priests and the Kirin Tor Mages/Sorceresses were "volunteers"
    Those weren't all troops Quel'thalas send official help as well, to quote chronicle.
    Even Quel'thalas, which had cut its ties to the Alliance, dispatched high elf priests to help defeat the undead.
    Chronicle 3 pg 55

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, don't get me wrong - I'm not an echo chamber and I can recant the Alliance of Lordaeron =/= Grand Alliance narrative today but I'm still confused on these things:
    The Alliance splintered and most members abandoned it after its failure during and shortly after the third war, only very few nations stuck out with it. Over time some gradually rejoined. Prime example would be Gilneas with Genn petitioning to rejoin during Wolfheart and Varian initially vetoing it.

  11. #571
    Stood in the Fire Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Those weren't all troops Quel'thalas send official help as well, to quote chronicle.
    I see. If there were Elven Priests, there's also Elven Paladins too, right? I mean Mehlar Dawnblade was a student of Uther.

    I'll try to use my artistic liberties to give Ballador the Bright a High Elf Paladin model
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves

    Dammit Blizzard once again forgot to create an icon for Apprentice Wizard in Reforged

  12. #572
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    when did i said they are the same?
    i never said you did. you keep going back on this and getting frustrated. this is your exact quote below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Fel magic is very similar to arcane magic and sometimes even better to do some things like portals, why it would not be the same thing just in different magic source?? and its canon fact, only few orcs drink it, Grom and varok were exemjples, Ogrin didn't, yet, every one of the orcs got corrupted and not just corrupted, but bounded to the Legion and Manoroth
    and this is what arcane magic is https://wow.gamepedia.com/Arcane
    While arcane represents order, fel is the magic of chaos and disorder,[7] and are considered opposite ends of the same spectrum
    and this is what fel magic is https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fel
    While fel is the language of chaos and disorder, arcane represents order,[2][3] and are considered opposite ends of the same spectrum.
    Not to mention the cosmology map LITERALLY lists fel as chaos and arcane as order. I mean if you really want to split hairs then here ya go https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/chaos
    antonym: order
    they are not VERY similar, they are EXACT opposites as proven by game setting and quotes. There is no ASSUMPTION here. This is how it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    again, i don't want to "refute the map"
    Every single time you use the word very similar. you are refuting that map. Because they are fundamentally opposites.

    Every single time you try to infer or add to it, you are either wrong or assuming.

    You are trying to equate one portal similarity to fel as arcane laws being applicable to it. The law of sympathy is an arcane law. This is your exact quote on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    because the fel energies around then affected the kodos just like the orcs, fel energy spreads and corrupt like radiation, everyone was fucked, and when grom drank it, it just reinvigorated the pact once more, it was what they call law of sympathy
    And this was my response

    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    they havent associated the law of sympathy to the blood haze. specifically it is applied to arcane magic, rather than fel energy as far as wow is concerned. we can assume (problem) that blood haze might be arcane in nature as demons have indeed used arcane, but the evidence is more that it is felbased due to it being called felblood at times and it is quite literally from the blood of a demon.
    you have yet to provide any proof where they have associated the law of sympathy to how fel or the blood haze is affected by it. The link you gave to me doesnot even mention it once in Antonidas journal.

    being able to create portals better with fel has no relation to the law of sympathy that YOU mentioned. The word doesnt even exist in that link.

    honestly at this point, if you cannot find an ACTUAL worded proof of the relation and you have more assumptions then i am just gonna not reply anymore, because im not indulging in inferences and assumptions.
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  13. #573
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    i never said you did. you keep going back on this and getting frustrated. this is your exact quote below:



    and this is what arcane magic is https://wow.gamepedia.com/Arcane

    and this is what fel magic is https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fel


    Not to mention the cosmology map LITERALLY lists fel as chaos and arcane as order. I mean if you really want to split hairs then here ya go https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/chaos


    they are not VERY similar, they are EXACT opposites as proven by game setting and quotes. There is no ASSUMPTION here. This is how it is.


    Every single time you use the word very similar. you are refuting that map. Because they are fundamentally opposites.

    Every single time you try to infer or add to it, you are either wrong or assuming.

    You are trying to equate one portal similarity to fel as arcane laws being applicable to it. The law of sympathy is an arcane law. This is your exact quote on it.



    And this was my response
    so, basically, because i said they were similar, because they can do the same thing, you went with this rant about they being opposite, while nothing that i say somehow contradict the canon? wuush

    you have yet to provide any proof where they have associated the law of sympathy to how fel or the blood haze is affected by it. The link you gave to me doesnot even mention it once in Antonidas journal.
    the link show the fel energy is similar to arcane because they can do the same thing.

    arcane can create portals, make you invisible, scry empower constructs and much more, fel magic also do the same

    polar opposites energies but they can do the same thing, yes similar

    But you are telling me, it can't be the same thing with the law of sympathy, just because is fel and not arcane, while we have sources that showed the blood curse worked exactly like the law of sympathy.

    being able to create portals better with fel has no relation to the law of sympathy that YOU mentioned. The word doesnt even exist in that link.
    if arcane magic does, and many things arcane can do fel also can do, and we have plenty of examples of the blood-curse being akin to the law of sympathy, giving the fact when the demon died, the curse is broken, we can say its the same or similar.

    you don't need something to be named to be a thing.

  14. #574
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    -something not worth reading -
    well that was fun. i didnt bother reading past the first sentence. Either you lack english comprehension skills because the word opposite is literally used in the definition of the two schools or you would rather argue for arguments sake.

    in the end, I wash my hands of this weirdness.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-26 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Received Infraction
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  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    well that was fun. i didnt bother reading past the first sentence. Either you lack english comprehension skills because the word opposite is literally used in the definition of the two schools or you would rather argue for arguments sake.

    in the end, I wash my hands of this weirdness.
    Opposite is similar.
    Up is down.
    Left is right.
    Fel is arcane.
    Mind control is not mind control.
    Orcs are innocent.
    Victims are guilty.

    Hope I've helped clear up what he's saying.

  16. #576
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    well that was fun. i didnt bother reading past the first sentence. Either you lack english comprehension skills because the word opposite is literally used in the definition of the two schools or you would rather argue for arguments sake.

    in the end, I wash my hands of this weirdness.
    just say you are holding grudge for the other subject and never wanted to discuss with good faith like your passive-aggressive inclination towards everything that i said claiming for sources when i cited then already like with the archmage journal.

    you can keep with your polar opposite forces, that i never argued about, i know that they are, and i stay saying the fel and arcane magic are similar doing a lot of the same thing, even being opposite, something already showed in the canon lore, that you ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Hope I've helped clear up what he's saying.
    so, now straight up lie is part of your "sarcastic extrapolations" for no reason at all?

    everything you said is a lie, since i never said those things before.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-26 at 06:44 PM.

  17. #577
    It's lying to point out what I've understood from your posts? OK then. Burden is on you to make your points clear.

  18. #578
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    It's lying to point out what I've understood from your posts? OK then. Burden is on you to make your points clear.
    now i have to proof that i did not say something that you baseless accuse me for?

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Opposite is similar.
    Up is down.
    Left is right.
    Fel is arcane.
    Mind control is not mind control.
    Orcs are innocent.
    Victims are guilty.

    Hope I've helped clear up what he's saying.
    lol, isnt like the chart is clearly made with taoism in mind.
    light-shadow, life-death, arcane-fel
    the fact that they are the opposite its what made them similar and bounded. both are addictive, both use "fuel" to cast magic.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    now i have to proof that i did not say something that you baseless accuse me for?
    Nope, not what I said. I said if people don't understand your point, it's your responsibility to make yourself clear. Just stubbornly repeating things is not explaining what you mean.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    lol, isnt like the chart is clearly made with taoism in mind.
    light-shadow, life-death, arcane-fel
    the fact that they are the opposite its what made them similar and bounded. both are addictive, both use "fuel" to cast magic.
    Sorry, what fuel does arcane use?

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