Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Feanoro]

mana.
163546546584

Hah, nice.

[omeomorfismo]

Hah, nice.

btw

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/672523313189548032


arcane and fel are soooo different that they are in the same spectrum...

[Syegfryed]

Nope, not what I said. I said if people don't understand your point, it's your responsibility to make yourself clear. Just stubbornly repeating things is not explaining what you mean.

i did make myself clear, but there are people who refuse to acknowledge a thing said because they are to busy trying to dismiss other statements with nonsense babbling.

everything you said that "i meant to say" was a lie, i never said orcs are innocent neither fel is arcane, if you are just going with your "sarcastic extrapolations" fueled with bias, why are you even commenting at all?

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Total amount of worlds ravaged by fel: 10.000
Total amount of worlds ravaged by arcane: 0

Yes, totally the same thing.

other who studied in the school of exaggeration and extrapolation, no one said they are the same thing

[Feanoro]

btw

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/672523313189548032


arcane and fel are soooo different that they are in the same spectrum...

"Fel is language of chaos, arcane is language of order. Same spectrum, opposite ends!"

Hmmm, looky there, "opposite ends". And not only that https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chaos. Antonyms for chaos include order. That means the two words are opposites!

Let's look up "opposite" while I'm on MW. https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/opposite
How astonishing, similar is an antonym for opposite!

Infracted.

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i did make myself clear, but there are people who refuse to acknowledge a thing said because they are to busy trying to dismiss other statements with nonsense babbling.

If people didn't understand you, then no, you didn't make yourself clear.

[Syegfryed]

If people didn't understand you, then no, you didn't make yourself clear.

funny that just a select group of alliance players that seems to not understand me, or other who said something similar, that is so strange.

Hmmm, looky there, "opposite ends". And not only that https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chaos. Antonyms for chaos include order. That means the two words are opposites!

they are in the same spectrum

And they can do a lot of the same things, thats why i said they are similar

but seems that you guys are too far into nitpicking thinking we are saying they are exactly the same for some reason

Infracted.

[Feanoro]

funny that just a select group of alliance players that seems to not understand me, or other who said something similar, that is so strange.

So now you're going to blame our "bias" (you of course are objective, only Horde players are unbiased, right? ) for your failure/refusal to explain your points. Got it.

[Ardenaso]

Bruh almost everyone got zucced

This is important thing to note, as it proves that Stormwind and its Alliance have no claim for northern Eastern Kingdoms.

now I'm even more confused. I think we should start another new separate thread for this.

[matrix123mko]

Total amount of worlds ravaged by fel: 10.000
Total amount of worlds ravaged by arcane: 0

Add K'aresh, which was destroyed by arcane magic of Dimensius.

Yes, totally the same thing.

We don't know how does the great ordering end for planet. It is possible that titan awakens in huge explosion.

[Aucald]

Add K'aresh, which was destroyed by arcane magic of Dimensius.

Dimensius was the avatar of a Void Lord, and was destroying K'aresh with Void magic. A byproduct of which was the ripping of dimensional boundaries that allowed Arcane energy flow in from the Twisting Nether as well - the Ethereals were able to protect themselves from the Void energies which were destroying the world, but couldn't block out the Arcane in addition, which led to their transformation to energy-beings.

[Unclekreepy]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

Just like in real life "Diversity is our strength" you bigot

Infracted.

[matrix123mko]

Dimensius was the avatar of a Void Lord, and was destroying K'aresh with Void magic. A byproduct of which was the ripping of dimensional boundaries that allowed Arcane energy flow in from the Twisting Nether as well - the Ethereals were able to protect themselves from the Void energies which were destroying the world, but couldn't block out the Arcane in addition, which led to their transformation to energy-beings.

Sure. That arcane magic was just a byproduct, not Dimensius' magic.

[Ardenaso]

Plus it's even stated in the official story section in the official WoW website that the Grand Alliance was formed by Stormwind after the Third War, and that Ironforge and Gnomeregan pledged themselves to it (why would they need to do it again if the Alliance of Lordaeron never ceased to be?).

mind giving me a citation?

[Varodoc]

mind giving me a citation?

"Meanwhile, dwarves, gnomes and the ancient night elves pledged their loyalties to a reinvigorated Alliance, guided by the human kingdom of Stormwind."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ine/chapter-06

If the Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance were the same organization, the dwarves and gnomes wouldn't need to pledge themselves to the reinvigorated Alliance.

Also, the description makes it clear that Stormwind founded this new alliance. First of all, it's referred to as "an Alliance" (generic term, it's one of the several alliances that were formed after the one from Lordaeron fell -- another example is the New Alliance of Garithos), and not "the Alliance of Lordaeron". Then, it just says that it's "guided by Stormwind", whereas if it were the Alliance of Lordaeron it should've said "now guided by Stormwind", since Stormwind wasn't the leader of the Alliance of Lordaeron.

[Ardenaso]

"Meanwhile, dwarves, gnomes and the ancient night elves pledged their loyalties to a reinvigorated Alliance, guided by the human kingdom of Stormwind."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ine/chapter-06

If the Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance were the same organization, the dwarves and gnomes wouldn't need to pledge themselves to the reinvigorated Alliance.

Also, the description makes it clear that Stormwind founded this new alliance. First of all, it's referred to as "an Alliance" (generic term, it's one of the several alliances that were formed after the one from Lordaeron fell -- another example is the New Alliance of Garithos), and not "the Alliance of Lordaeron". Then, it just says that it's "guided by Stormwind", whereas if it were the Alliance of Lordaeron it should've said "now guided by Stormwind", since Stormwind wasn't the leader of the Alliance of Lordaeron.

Aight thanks, maybe I should go start a new thread to stop this thread from further derailing

[omeomorfismo]

"Meanwhile, dwarves, gnomes and the ancient night elves pledged their loyalties to a reinvigorated Alliance, guided by the human kingdom of Stormwind."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ine/chapter-06

If the Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance were the same organization, the dwarves and gnomes wouldn't need to pledge themselves to the reinvigorated Alliance.

Also, the description makes it clear that Stormwind founded this new alliance. First of all, it's referred to as "an Alliance" (generic term, it's one of the several alliances that were formed after the one from Lordaeron fell -- another example is the New Alliance of Garithos), and not "the Alliance of Lordaeron". Then, it just says that it's "guided by Stormwind", whereas if it were the Alliance of Lordaeron it should've said "now guided by Stormwind", since Stormwind wasn't the leader of the Alliance of Lordaeron.

im pretty sure that even in english "reinvigorated" means making something successful again. and you cant pledge "again" to something new

[yani9841]

Then are they really factions?

Despite you not being able to respond... I think this is dependent on how we're defining the term "faction"

I say "unused" because the game doesn't bring in the other orc clans except when looking at alternate timelines... Warsong and Frostwolf entities were a thing and remained factions to grind rep in but limited to BG entities. Shattered hand wound up as the rogue/spy association under Orgrimmar. Burning Blade was the warlock group Thrall had his eyes on.... Far Striders are still the main ranger fighting force of Quel'thalas and I don't think anyone would be surprised at any racial faction having their own regiments of forces to call upon for some sort of formal recognition...


I don't see how these groups are any less a "faction" than say the Silver Hand, which mind you, does NOT have any sort of formal set up players can associate with except for the paladin players (who are exclusively alliance now post BFA since the arathi warfront implies they took a side and it doesn't include sun walkers or blood knights anymore)

edit:

as for seven kingdoms alliance of lordaeron and Stormwind's "Alliance" I think it's safe to assume they are different entities. The problem then comes in when various parties want to posture for who is more right on given subjects and then argue their absolved from because it wasn't "them".

Really though, the story just goes to shit when every major organization keeps using the same names and it's almost the same people making up the groups. alliance of Lordaeron had high elves but the Grand alliance traded them out for night elves... and the story can't keep elf lore straight without retconning a major character or three.

[Leodric]

Yeah just them seeing Garrosh as a prophet showing them how azerothian people are going treat them in interment camps forced to kill their loved onces as even elements said thpse vision were true so ofc the orcs would trust his word and him revealing all of Gul'dans machinations while chronicles 2 showed that orcs were extremely distrustful towards draenai ever sine gorian assaulted shattrath city and whole draenai handled it.

So Garrosh being right in terms of elemental knowledge and revealing the gul'dans and legions plans wouldn't cause blind trust towards his words what would? Alsp as we later seen in AU draenor Garrosh was right about the draenais as you look at what draenais and yrel are doing.

They Draenais are going crazy because of the Orcs genociding them, so you can't say that the Draenai are violent by nature like the Orcs are, which WoD showed us. It takes one person to tell them something and they go all "let's conquer and genocide them" mode. We can also see in BFA that the Orcs and the Horde in a whole does not step back from genocide one bit. Thrall was the only chance that the Orcs could've redeemed themselves with his new Horde, but that didn't work out.

[Combatbutler]

They Draenais are going crazy because of the Orcs genociding them, so you can't say that the Draenai are violent by nature like the Orcs are, which WoD showed us. It takes one person to tell them something and they go all "let's conquer and genocide them" mode. We can also see in BFA that the Orcs and the Horde in a whole does not step back from genocide one bit. Thrall was the only chance that the Orcs could've redeemed themselves with his new Horde, but that didn't work out.

Draenei might not be quite as violent as orcs, but I'd say they are even more dangerous due to their longevity and thirst for power, as seen in WoD the younger generations had quite a few members that were all too willing to sell out their people, to get a shot at joining the legion in order to claim their birthright as master race.

And speaking in general the vast majority of the species embraced the ways of the legion willingly, the draenei are most certainly not the norm for their people, but rather the exception, much like the frost wolves are for the orcs.

[Terongor]

They Draenais are going crazy because of the Orcs genociding them, so you can't say that the Draenai are violent by nature like the Orcs are, which WoD showed us. It takes one person to tell them something and they go all "let's conquer and genocide them" mode. We can also see in BFA that the Orcs and the Horde in a whole does not step back from genocide one bit. Thrall was the only chance that the Orcs could've redeemed themselves with his new Horde, but that didn't work out.

Seeing how easily draenai fall to sargeras look sargerai in AU draenor and how huge part the eredar are from their race so they the peaceful ones are rare and later on in bfa yrel shows that draenai doesn't justify by their genociding the orcs by any other way but that "Light tells us all who don't follow it are evil or supposed to be killed and even them making families turn against family making brother kill brother.

while in WoD elements and ancestors showed that azerothian races would enslave them in interment camps making cruel arcane experments on them, forcing family to kill family and all the rest shit they did there and them him being correct about Gul'dan scheems and legion backing Gul'dan. being correct about these two things can easily make him seens as prophet and he had the title so him even saying draenais are evil and wanted conquer them (which was proven right in au draenor in bfa) would be beliavable as orcs had treated draenais with extreme suspicion after they draenais defeated highmaul ogres.

So it seems to be rule in draenais/eredar race to follow magical force which seeks to enforce they will trhough out the cosmos killing anyone who doesn't follow them.

and horde had legitimate reason to start the war in bfa and bfa novels make it a point to say most ors grew up in interment camps and remember how they were treated there and seeing how varian acted when he was treated in gladiatorial arenas its hundred worse how there children were treated in interment camps and thrall could easily place it on all blackmoore and but not any other orcs and seeing how thrall thinks of blackmoore could easily translate to how all orcs who grew up in interment camps think of humans as they have proven no different.

[Leodric]

Seeing how easily draenai fall to sargeras look sargerai in AU draenor and how huge part the eredar are from their race so they the peaceful ones are rare and later on in bfa yrel shows that draenai doesn't justify by their genociding the orcs by any other way but that "Light tells us all who don't follow it are evil or supposed to be killed and even them making families turn against family making brother kill brother.

while in WoD elements and ancestors showed that azerothian races would enslave them in interment camps making cruel arcane experments on them, forcing family to kill family and all the rest shit they did there and them him being correct about Gul'dan scheems and legion backing Gul'dan. being correct about these two things can easily make him seens as prophet and he had the title so him even saying draenais are evil and wanted conquer them (which was proven right in au draenor in bfa) would be beliavable as orcs had treated draenais with extreme suspicion after they draenais defeated highmaul ogres.

So it seems to be rule in draenais/eredar race to follow magical force which seeks to enforce they will trhough out the cosmos killing anyone who doesn't follow them.

and horde had legitimate reason to start the war in bfa and bfa novels make it a point to say most ors grew up in interment camps and remember how they were treated there and seeing how varian acted when he was treated in gladiatorial arenas its hundred worse how there children were treated in interment camps and thrall could easily place it on all blackmoore and but not any other orcs and seeing how thrall thinks of blackmoore could easily translate to how all orcs who grew up in interment camps think of humans as they have proven no different.

So you admit that it takes some "prophet" showing some visions and telling one thing to the Orcs so they start genociding again? There is a huge difference between defending yourself or going total apeshit insane and start "conquering" again, it's wrong and that's the point, it doesn't take a lot to get Orcs to kill.

I am not even getting into the debate of the draenei being inherently evil or putting them on the same pedestal as the ereder, since the mental gymnastics you've shown already about this topic is enough for me to see that it does not bring you or me further. Also if the Horde had a legitimate reason to start a war, is something you can start to talk about in another thread, so not going to derail this one any further. The only thing I gotta say is that the Alliance had to stand again in front of Orgrimmar, lol. And the poor dindu' Orcs being mistreated in the internment camps is nothing compared to the stuff they've pulled in Stormwind, they can be happy not be killed on the spot after losing the war.

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Draenei might not be quite as violent as orcs, but I'd say they are even more dangerous due to their longevity and thirst for power, as seen in WoD the younger generations had quite a few members that were all too willing to sell out their people, to get a shot at joining the legion in order to claim their birthright as master race.

And speaking in general the vast majority of the species embraced the ways of the legion willingly, the draenei are most certainly not the norm for their people, but rather the exception, much like the frost wolves are for the orcs.

This might be, but with the AU Draenei I could at least see a reason for them going fanatical against anything which isn't willingly joining the Light, they have seen the Horros of genocide and the burning legion on their doorstep, I wouldn't say that they have the same violent tendency as the Orcs.