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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    They Draenais are going crazy because of the Orcs genociding them, so you can't say that the Draenai are violent by nature like the Orcs are, which WoD showed us. It takes one person to tell them something and they go all "let's conquer and genocide them" mode. We can also see in BFA that the Orcs and the Horde in a whole does not step back from genocide one bit. Thrall was the only chance that the Orcs could've redeemed themselves with his new Horde, but that didn't work out.
    Seeing how easily draenai fall to sargeras look sargerai in AU draenor and how huge part the eredar are from their race so they the peaceful ones are rare and later on in bfa yrel shows that draenai doesn't justify by their genociding the orcs by any other way but that "Light tells us all who don't follow it are evil or supposed to be killed and even them making families turn against family making brother kill brother.

    while in WoD elements and ancestors showed that azerothian races would enslave them in interment camps making cruel arcane experments on them, forcing family to kill family and all the rest shit they did there and them him being correct about Gul'dan scheems and legion backing Gul'dan. being correct about these two things can easily make him seens as prophet and he had the title so him even saying draenais are evil and wanted conquer them (which was proven right in au draenor in bfa) would be beliavable as orcs had treated draenais with extreme suspicion after they draenais defeated highmaul ogres.

    So it seems to be rule in draenais/eredar race to follow magical force which seeks to enforce they will trhough out the cosmos killing anyone who doesn't follow them.

    and horde had legitimate reason to start the war in bfa and bfa novels make it a point to say most ors grew up in interment camps and remember how they were treated there and seeing how varian acted when he was treated in gladiatorial arenas its hundred worse how there children were treated in interment camps and thrall could easily place it on all blackmoore and but not any other orcs and seeing how thrall thinks of blackmoore could easily translate to how all orcs who grew up in interment camps think of humans as they have proven no different.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Seeing how easily draenai fall to sargeras look sargerai in AU draenor and how huge part the eredar are from their race so they the peaceful ones are rare and later on in bfa yrel shows that draenai doesn't justify by their genociding the orcs by any other way but that "Light tells us all who don't follow it are evil or supposed to be killed and even them making families turn against family making brother kill brother.

    while in WoD elements and ancestors showed that azerothian races would enslave them in interment camps making cruel arcane experments on them, forcing family to kill family and all the rest shit they did there and them him being correct about Gul'dan scheems and legion backing Gul'dan. being correct about these two things can easily make him seens as prophet and he had the title so him even saying draenais are evil and wanted conquer them (which was proven right in au draenor in bfa) would be beliavable as orcs had treated draenais with extreme suspicion after they draenais defeated highmaul ogres.

    So it seems to be rule in draenais/eredar race to follow magical force which seeks to enforce they will trhough out the cosmos killing anyone who doesn't follow them.

    and horde had legitimate reason to start the war in bfa and bfa novels make it a point to say most ors grew up in interment camps and remember how they were treated there and seeing how varian acted when he was treated in gladiatorial arenas its hundred worse how there children were treated in interment camps and thrall could easily place it on all blackmoore and but not any other orcs and seeing how thrall thinks of blackmoore could easily translate to how all orcs who grew up in interment camps think of humans as they have proven no different.
    So you admit that it takes some "prophet" showing some visions and telling one thing to the Orcs so they start genociding again? There is a huge difference between defending yourself or going total apeshit insane and start "conquering" again, it's wrong and that's the point, it doesn't take a lot to get Orcs to kill.

    I am not even getting into the debate of the draenei being inherently evil or putting them on the same pedestal as the ereder, since the mental gymnastics you've shown already about this topic is enough for me to see that it does not bring you or me further. Also if the Horde had a legitimate reason to start a war, is something you can start to talk about in another thread, so not going to derail this one any further. The only thing I gotta say is that the Alliance had to stand again in front of Orgrimmar, lol. And the poor dindu' Orcs being mistreated in the internment camps is nothing compared to the stuff they've pulled in Stormwind, they can be happy not be killed on the spot after losing the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Draenei might not be quite as violent as orcs, but I'd say they are even more dangerous due to their longevity and thirst for power, as seen in WoD the younger generations had quite a few members that were all too willing to sell out their people, to get a shot at joining the legion in order to claim their birthright as master race.

    And speaking in general the vast majority of the species embraced the ways of the legion willingly, the draenei are most certainly not the norm for their people, but rather the exception, much like the frost wolves are for the orcs.
    This might be, but with the AU Draenei I could at least see a reason for them going fanatical against anything which isn't willingly joining the Light, they have seen the Horros of genocide and the burning legion on their doorstep, I wouldn't say that they have the same violent tendency as the Orcs.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Draenei might not be quite as violent as orcs, but I'd say they are even more dangerous due to their longevity and thirst for power, as seen in WoD the younger generations had quite a few members that were all too willing to sell out their people, to get a shot at joining the legion in order to claim their birthright as master race.

    And speaking in general the vast majority of the species embraced the ways of the legion willingly, the draenei are most certainly not the norm for their people, but rather the exception, much like the frost wolves are for the orcs.
    It's something I don't like about the Eredar, they are either omnicidal Man'ari who want to burn all creation for shits and giggles or damn near Light-fearing pacifists with little in-between save Yrel's Lightbound.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    So you admit that it takes some "prophet" showing some visions and telling one thing to the Orcs so they start genociding again? There is a huge difference between defending yourself or going total apeshit insane and start "conquering" again, it's wrong and that's the point, it doesn't take a lot to get Orcs to kill.

    I am not even getting into the debate of the draenei being inherently evil or putting them on the same pedestal as the ereder, since the mental gymnastics you've shown already about this topic is enough for me to see that it does not bring you or me further. Also if the Horde had a legitimate reason to start a war, is something you can start to talk about in another thread, so not going to derail this one any further. The only thing I gotta say is that the Alliance had to stand again in front of Orgrimmar, lol. And the poor dindu' Orcs being mistreated in the internment camps is nothing compared to the stuff they've pulled in Stormwind, they can be happy not be killed on the spot after losing the war.

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    This might be, but with the AU Draenei I could at least see a reason for them going fanatical against anything which isn't willingly joining the Light, they have seen the Horros of genocide and the burning legion on their doorstep, I wouldn't say that they have the same violent tendency as the Orcs.
    As even elements agreed with garrosh on their interment camp stuff and Garrosh revealed Gul'dan evil schemes he was extremely trust worthy and seemed to be right on everything so him telling Draenais are evil is extremely beliavable as most clans didn't trust draenai one bit aftet what they did to ogres so it wasn't only a prophet but draenais being extremely suspicious.

    Lightbound draenais are pratically doing what the legion was doing killing all those who oppose them, converting or force converting so draenais are pratically the same as legion as legion did the same. Oh wait their force converted orcs or converted orcs were called lightbound yrel and her followers are still just normal draenai so without velen guidance draenai always seems to fall heck plenty of draenai joined to legion in draenor just because velen couldn't guide them.

    Also killing all orcs would have being more merciful and humane and alliance armies would have died without an orc there and lastly humans did much worse shit to trolls so they can't complain.

  5. #605
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    As even elements agreed with garrosh on their interment camp stuff and Garrosh revealed Gul'dan evil schemes he was extremely trust worthy and seemed to be right on everything so him telling Draenais are evil is extremely beliavable as most clans didn't trust draenai one bit aftet what they did to ogres so it wasn't only a prophet but draenais being extremely suspicious.
    And that justifies genocide how exactly or their let's conquer stuff? You just repeat the same stuff over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Lightbound draenais are pratically doing what the legion was doing killing all those who oppose them, converting or force converting so draenais are pratically the same as legion as legion did the same. Oh wait their force converted orcs or converted orcs were called lightbound yrel and her followers are still just normal draenai so without velen guidance draenai always seems to fall heck plenty of draenai joined to legion in draenor just because velen couldn't guide them.
    what? How does that make the lightbound draenais and the legion "practically" the same? They have complete different goals, it takes much more to put something on the same pedestal as the legion. Look I know you try to portray the Draenai as the big bad inherently evil race, but it does not change the nature of the Orcs. Besides Blizzards asspull about the AU Draenei becoming fanatical maniacs you understand that they've endured the Orcs practically genociding them, which might give them a reason listening to the light. I think there is a huge difference between some dude telling you and some visions and nearly seeing your race going extinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Also killing all orcs would have being more merciful and humane and alliance armies would have died without an orc there and lastly humans did much worse shit to trolls so they can't complain.
    Where would alliance armies died without an orc "there"? Also, the trolls did sick stuff to the Humans as well, two wrongs don't make a right, as you seem to suggest.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    And that justifies genocide how exactly or their let's conquer stuff? You just repeat the same stuff over and over again.



    what? How does that make the lightbound draenais and the legion "practically" the same? They have complete different goals, it takes much more to put something on the same pedestal as the legion. Look I know you try to portray the Draenai as the big bad inherently evil race, but it does not change the nature of the Orcs. Besides Blizzards asspull about the AU Draenei becoming fanatical maniacs you understand that they've endured the Orcs practically genociding them, which might give them a reason listening to the light. I think there is a huge difference between some dude telling you and some visions and nearly seeing your race going extinct.



    Where would alliance armies died without an orc "there"? Also, the trolls did sick stuff to the Humans as well, two wrongs don't make a right, as you seem to suggest.
    As draenai brought legion knowingly there and they didn't belong to draenor and nothing really justifies genocide just give logical reasons for it.

    As blizzard have plenty of times stated light wants enforce their will Arosa cosmos and au draenai are pretty much serving them and I could maybe understand that its retribution for what iron horde did but they are even targetint Durotan and the Frostwolf just because light tells them to kill all those who don't submit. So lightbound are aiming go with light and enforcing their will on everyone like x'era tried to do with illidan or outright murder them after they helped them to survive like durotan and frostwolf.

    When saurfang Challenged sylvanas to mak'gora and before that one of the alliance leaders even said sylvanas and his followers were the only one with enough military power to fight against sylvanas.

    Humans started they invaded land which belonged to other races and started acting like victims after causing the war and then trying genocide trolls. Heck SW humans even resorted on using sargerases power against gurubashi after again humans started the war.

  7. #607
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    As draenai brought legion knowingly there and they didn't belong to draenor and nothing really justifies genocide just give logical reasons for it.
    So escaping from someone is now the same as bringing it intentionally there? You make it sounds like they've done it just to shit on Draenor and their inhabitants for shits and giggles. I don't understand that victim blaming to be honest

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    As blizzard have plenty of times stated light wants enforce their will Arosa cosmos and au draenai are pretty much serving them and I could maybe understand that its retribution for what iron horde did but they are even targetint Durotan and the Frostwolf just because light tells them to kill all those who don't submit. So lightbound are aiming go with light and enforcing their will on everyone like x'era tried to do with illidan or outright murder them after they helped them to survive like durotan and frostwolf.
    Obviously what they are doing in AU Draenor is out of proportion and fanatical, but I think there is still a huge difference between some guy who comes out of nowhere and visions to genocide a race and what the Draenai have endured. If they Draenai are so insane, why haven't they have gone as fanatical on Azeroth with the Light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Heck SW humans even resorted on using sargerases power against gurubashi after again humans started the war.
    Source for that? I can't find it
    Last edited by Leodric; Yesterday at 10:27 AM.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    "Meanwhile, dwarves, gnomes and the ancient night elves pledged their loyalties to a reinvigorated Alliance, guided by the human kingdom of Stormwind."

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ine/chapter-06

    If the Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance were the same organization, the dwarves and gnomes wouldn't need to pledge themselves to the reinvigorated Alliance.

    Also, the description makes it clear that Stormwind founded this new alliance. First of all, it's referred to as "an Alliance" (generic term, it's one of the several alliances that were formed after the one from Lordaeron fell -- another example is the New Alliance of Garithos), and not "the Alliance of Lordaeron". Then, it just says that it's "guided by Stormwind", whereas if it were the Alliance of Lordaeron it should've said "now guided by Stormwind", since Stormwind wasn't the leader of the Alliance of Lordaeron.
    If they weren't the same organization it wouldn't say "reinvigorated". It would say "recreated", "reformed" or something of that sort. Which directly disproves your claim that this source supposedly "makes it clear" that Stormwind founded this "new alliance". It does the exact opposite. To be reinvigorated something must have already existed prior to reinvigoration and still continued to exist at the time of reinvigoration because of what reinvigorating something means.

    And no matter how many times you claim that, pledging yourself to the same thing more than once is possible just fine, vide pledge of allegiance in US. Especially in cases where there's a power shift like was the case here. Also, it's not referred to as "an Alliance". It's "a reinvigorated Alliance" as per your own quote. Trying to remove the descriptive adjective out of there isn't an argument. Now, which specific Alliance was being invigorated there? The Alliance of Lordaeron as that's the alliance they were all in.

    And given how it says the Alliance was reinvigorated the implication that it's now guided by Stormwind is more than explicit because (again) of what reinvigoration means. And because of, you know, the whole context of Lordaeroon collapsing and power structure shifting around.

    Stop trying to fool posters like @Ardenaso with your blatant fabrications that rely on you ignoring what words in your own source mean.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; Yesterday at 11:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  9. #609
    For two reasons.

    One : Blizzard is lazy. Why create two organizations when one can be enough. And since the Alliance is the default "Good" faction, organizations thematically linked to it have been used and developed for neutral purposes - often at the expense of the Alliance's development itself.

    Two : Blizzard wants the Horde to be Power Fantasy of their game. They can't establish Horde organizations open to the Alliance and in the same time have those same organizations spitting on Alliance players all the time when "non-neutral".

    That's how we end with the vicious cycle we are in. The Reliquary ? Why use this when you've got the League of Explorer, who seems to be less linked to one faction in the mind of the devs ? Nevermind Bael'gun, or that their base is in Irongorge, of course.
    Last edited by Manariel; Yesterday at 12:08 PM.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    So escaping from someone is now the same as bringing it intentionally there? You make it sounds like they've done it just to shit on Draenor and their inhabitants for shits and giggles. I don't understand that victim blaming to be honest



    Obviously what they are doing in AU Draenor is out of proportion and fanatical, but I think there is still a huge difference between some guy who comes out of nowhere and visions to genocide a race and what the Draenai have endured. If they Draenai are so insane, why haven't they have gone as fanatical on Azeroth with the Light?



    Source for that? I can't find it
    Well draenai knew legion followed them and they could stayed indefinetly in their spaceship.

    Elements and most ancestors agreed with that "someguy" and which they started waging war against was race which was according to chronicles 2 from the begining extreme suspicious and how easily they crushed the ogre armies so ofc if a guy who came from the future tells them they are evil orcs are going to trust him after saving them from legion which draenais brought.

    Well same reason they still follow velen as they went so insane after velens death and are doing pratically same thing as eredar but with different reasoning.

    Chronicles 2 medivh crushing gurubashi armies with a magic he doesn't know what it is and stormwind celebrated it.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Well draenai knew legion followed them and they could stayed indefinetly in their spaceship.
    Just to make things clear to understand how you think, because I can't imagine anyone could be that simple minded, when it comes to stuff like that. Let's pretend someone follows you with a gun with the intention to kill you. You run away and this crazy guy kills others while you run into a building. According to your logic it would be your fault these people died? That's such stupid victim blaming it's insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Elements and most ancestors agreed with that "someguy" and which they started waging war against was race which was according to chronicles 2 from the begining extreme suspicious and how easily they crushed the ogre armies so ofc if a guy who came from the future tells them they are evil orcs are going to trust him after saving them from legion which draenais brought.
    I understand that, you've written that over and over again, but to ask you again: Is that enough to practically trying to genocide a race in the cruelst way possible or don't you think there could've been other ways to prevent the "evil draeneis" killing them first. It sure as hell didn't look like they had a very tough ethical choice in their head while swinging their axe towards children and women and building some fucked up roads. The whole thing just shows that Orcs are over and over again too stupidly agressive and barbaric, getting them into more trouble than they've been in before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Well same reason they still follow velen as they went so insane after velens death and are doing pratically same thing as eredar but with different reasoning.
    Not sure what you mean to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Chronicles 2 medivh crushing gurubashi armies with a magic he doesn't know what it is and stormwind celebrated it.
    Ok, I thought I knew what you meant but wasn't sure because that would be again very twisted logic. You make it sound like the Humans willingly used Sargeras magic as if they knew that Medivh was under Sargeras influence. Also it wasn't really the Humans using it but Medivh, which at that time couldn't be considered a Human as a Guardian. So no, it's not right to say that the Humans "resorted" to Sargeras power when they haven't a) used it to begin with but Medivh and b) nobody knew shit about Sargeras at that time. I mean you even wrote it yourself, that he didn't know what it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    For two reasons.
    That's how we end with the vicious cycle we are in. The Reliquary ? Why use this when you've got the League of Explorer, who seems to be less linked to one faction in the mind of the devs ? Nevermind Bael'gun, or that their base is in Irongorge, of course.
    It would be a nice touch from Blizzard to change stuff up. It hurts the immersion when helping your enemies organisations one day and the other day you start killing them.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    It would be a nice touch from Blizzard to change stuff up. It hurts the immersion when helping your enemies organisations one day and the other day you start killing them.
    I'd love that. It'd be a win-win situation for both factions : the Alliance wouldn't lose its stuff because it must share it with the Horde while the Horde would get to be fleshed out more and make use of many minor characters who would do well to transition to the higher level of representation for the faction.

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