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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post

    They were officially Horde until they deserted and Orgrim considered them traitors. Then they died.
    in that case they aren't the horde I'm talking. Orgrim's horde and Thrall's horde aren't the same entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Kael'thas was the king of Quel'thalas. He was the leader and thus part of the Horde.
    Kael was never in the horde. He departed with Illidan and appointed Lorthemar before the events of TBC even began.
    Last edited by yani9841; 2020-03-15 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    I would argue it goes much further than just factions:

    - Blood Elves are, as Ion said, High Elves. One of the oldest core Alliance races of the franchise. They had to not only give the Horde access to one of the core Alliance races of the franchise, no, EXCLUSIVE access to this day.

    - Nightborne are Night Elves. Again, exclusive access to the Horde.

    - Druids; the only race that ever had Druids in the lore were Night Elves. Access given to the Horde.

    The reason:
    Up until WoW the Alliance was actually the diverse and politically interesting faction of Warcraft (Elves, Gnomes, Dwarves) while the Horde was just a bunch of racist brutes. Yes, there was some politics going on in the original Horde, but not on par with what the Alliance had.
    Also, everything that comes down to "protecting Azeroth" almost always is very Alliance-themed.

    Since Blizzard wants the overall narrative of the game (told by dungeons+raids and quests) to almost always be identical for both factions (and there is no realistical alternative to that, either), they HAD TO "alliancify" the Horde.

    Result:
    The Horde is now more diverse than the Alliance, mostly because of Alliance races (undead Humans are still Humans). Everything interesting they can think of for Alliance races is instead added to the Horde-mirrors, making the Alliance the "PvE background faction" that is just a blob nobody at Blizzard gives a fuck about.

    The original Horde theme from WC1+2 is completely gone. The Alliance theme from WC1+2+3 has been given to the Horde.

    Both factions are completely fucked up and none of their stories make any sense anymore.
    It's worse. Becuse the alliance was so popular, they intentionally didn't write roles and development for the night elves. The developments tehy gave had hardly any depth, most of the background knowledge coming in books

    Night elves have more books about htem than any other race.

    4 - on the pre-sundering civilizatio, a lot on the arcane side of the highborne and the new society
    1 - on Illidan and the demon hunters
    1 - Malfurion Stormrage and the Emerald Dream.

    But in-game:

    • Classic - starting zones
    no-development and minimal involvement till

    • Cata - every race gets a revamp - minimal in game presentation of the highborne, night elves rubbish and beaten everywhere
    no - development and minimal involvement till

    • Legion - the only really balanced night elf presentation - Bringing to life the War of the Ancients zones and peoples. You had druids (Val'Sharah), arcane wing of the night elves shown properly in Suramar with the Nightborne and Moonguard, then Azsuna showing highborne country. Demon hunters, Wardens, Huntresses, and the Cathedral of Eternal night.

    Very sparse = largely ignored in game. Most of night elf lore is in books. 5 major novels and half of the other material like novellas and

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    • Cata - every race gets a revamp - minimal in game presentation of the highborne, night elves rubbish and beaten everywhere
    no - development and minimal involvement till
    That's probably because the "high born" elves were viewed as either Shendralar exiles OR blood elves exclusively...

    edit:

    When I say blood elves I'm including all the thalassian elves as well, so the high elves that remained in the alliance areas at the time as well.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    The Horde raided the homeland of the Night Elves and Malfurion himself was nearly killed by a Horde general. That should be enough for him to kick out every Tauren and Troll druid.




    This irks me even more tbh.
    ... A lot of NPCs in WoW are shown as neutral. That alone explains why they dont commit racial purging of their ranks. Tirion is neutral Alliance side. Thrall and the Earthen Ring are neutral horde side.

    In the WoW story, weve seen a lot of characters of specific races who do not care for the Alliance Horde conflict.

    Cenarion Circle, despite being Nelf in origin, is not Alliance.

  5. #145
    Legendary! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    in that case they aren't the horde I'm talking. Orgrim's horde and Thrall's horde aren't the same entity.



    Kael was never in the horde. He departed with Illidan and appointed Lorthemar before the events of TBC even began.
    Huh? You got the wrong person.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    in that case they aren't the horde I'm talking. Orgrim's horde and Thrall's horde aren't the same entity.
    Thrall was chosen warchief by Orgrim. They were friends. I think we can consider Orgrim Thrall's predecessor.
    Kael was never in the horde. He departed with Illidan and appointed Lorthemar before the events of TBC even began.
    Appointed Lor'themar but still was the boss. He was Horde-affiliated but he was also absent.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    in that case they aren't the horde I'm talking. Orgrim's horde and Thrall's horde aren't the same entity.
    The Alliance treats them like they are. During the scenario to rescue Baine during the fighting Shaw takes some time out of fighting to make a dig at Thrall and Varok saying that he somehow holds THEM responsible for King Llane's death, something that happened when Thrall was an infant, for one thing. It may not be the entire Alliance that holds this mindset, but the leader of their intelligence division and one of their High King's top advisors sure does.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Huh? You got the wrong person.
    only cause I'm leaving your post on the copy to break up you OTHER posts to respond.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Thrall was chosen warchief by Orgrim. They were friends. I think we can consider Orgrim Thrall's predecessor.
    Yes, but Thrall's horde is made up of totally different forces only bringing in some of the same groups. No amani trolls, no major gruop of ogres. not even all the orcish clans followed in. Thrall's freed orcs and whatever groups he found along the way to founding Orgrimmar. I can't call it the same horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Appointed Lor'themar but still was the boss. He was Horde-affiliated but he was also absent.
    Kael never made any approach to the horde and was already hooking up with the legion by the time the horde was working with Quel'thalas.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    Yes, but Thrall's horde is made up of totally different forces only bringing in some of the same groups. No amani trolls, no major gruop of ogres. not even all the orcish clans followed in. Thrall's freed orcs and whatever groups he found along the way to founding Orgrimmar. I can't call it the same horde.
    This Horde is three ships of orcs.,
    Kael never made any approach to the horde and was already hooking up with the legion by the time the horde was working with Quel'thalas.
    But blood elves considered him their prince and Lor'themar joined the Horde on his behalf.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    But blood elves considered him their prince and Lor'themar joined the Horde on his behalf.
    but Kael never weighed in on the matter.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    The Horde raided the homeland of the Night Elves and Malfurion himself was nearly killed by a Horde general. That should be enough for him to kick out every Tauren and Troll druid.
    my take from why it didnt happen (aside from the obvious stupid answer of "cUZ bLiZaRD waNtED tO" ) is that not all druids are in the cenarion circle and those that are in the cenarion circle are mostly natural and often seen in their faction for the regards of things that relates to the druids or druid stuff.

    which also kinda ruins how druids work, because unlike warriors and rogues who dont really need someone to teach them or mages who can learn their stuff without directly learning from someone, druids are kind of a hero class to begin with like how DKs came to be because of arthas and how DHs are made and trained because of Illidan. druids too came to be because of cenarious and need to learn their specific ways from their elders.
    but this idea was already destroyed when they introduced zandalari and kul tiran druids into the game, UNLESS they too were trained by cenarious or someone he trained and was very powerful but now out of the picture.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    but Kael never weighed in on the matter.
    He didn't complain when he heard about it.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    He didn't complain when he heard about it.
    pretty sure he was already in with the legion by the time we see him in outland and he never returned to Quel'thalas (before we turned him into a corpse that is)

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Ouch, did a void elf kick your dog?
    No. I don't even like blood elves. I just find it ridiculous that Blizzard thinks it is okay for a race that is self-defined as traitors to exist, and appalling and disgusting that anyone would consider that appealing.

    Also, it's a horrid shoehorned excuse to have high elves, without having high elves, despite high elves already being perfectly playable.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-15 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    No. I don't even like blood elves. I just find it ridiculous that Blizzard thinks it is okay for a race that is self-defined as traitors to exist, and appalling and disgusting that anyone would consider that appealing.

    Also, it's a horrid shoehorned excuse to have high elves, without having high elves, despite high elves already being perfectly playable.
    Okay then, I am an appalling and disgusting person.

    … may I now enjoy my void elf with shadow wings?
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Okay then, I am an appalling and disgusting person.

    … may I now enjoy my void elf with shadow wings?
    Correct, and while I would generally be of the opinion that people should be allowed to enjoy what they want, I'm inclined to make an exception in this case—so no.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    That's probably because the "high born" elves were viewed as either Shendralar exiles OR blood elves exclusively...
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post

    edit:

    When I say blood elves I'm including all the thalassian elves as well, so the high elves that remained in the alliance areas at the time as well.

    No, Highborne elves were never blood elves. Some players might have viewed them that way after Suramar (some BElf players wanting the night elf connection when they saw oh.. night elf cities are pretty, let's recognise we're related - ask them where they were during cata with the Shen'dralar who instead have a ruined city), but it is clear that high elves and blood elves were high elves and blood elves, not highborne.

    Highborne were always night elves and became playable in cata, they are a huge part of night elf lore, same as the Order of Elune, the druids and the Illidari, they led night elf society for the best parts of 5k years. They are what connect night elves to high elves, but the highborne group with Darth'remar became high elves (then many became blood elves), and highbonre don't look like high elves.. but they're related. Cata has a storyline and a book going over the reuniting process of the surviving original highborne and the Darnassian group, MoP through to BFA show lots of highborne npc, and Azsuna and Suramar are highborne based stories and they are all night elven whether kaldorei or Shal'dorei.

    But it's still no excuse not to show more in-game. They are serious enough that they are a focus of an entire book in this cataclysm stage, but my point is that blizzard don't like showing night elf development in game at all, yet it interests people greatly always has - the success of the Legion broken isle zones, especially Suramar and the Nightborne, and the success that spun 4 novels on them, is ample proof.

    Proof of in-game neglect prior to Legion? Worgen come to Darnassus, they get 1 tree, place isn't upgraded, Stormwind and orgrimmar are. Eldre'thalas, that should have been upgraded isn't. compared to the story of theforsaken we get night elves whipped in stonetalon, Desolace, Azshar and Ashenvale, it doesn't matter if they're sentinels, new mages or druids. The druids appear in Mount Hyjal, but it's a class thing, not a race thing as you can clearly see lots of tauren and night elves, and the new worgen and troll candidates playing part.

    Point was, the night elves are not seriuously devleoped in cata, they are given similar treatment to all the other original races that got revamped, and they actually are the only ones whooped in a string of storylines that see them nawrrowly escape annihilation, which Danuser and Afrisiabi give them a few years later in the WoT. Even their arcane development and pristine city with its nigiht elf sub-race are given to the horde when the decision is made to make them layable.

    If that's not neglect and bias, or i don't care or a giant freaking FUCK YOU bend over and take it to night elves I don't know what is. Seeing night elves devastated, and every y good thing done to them, either shared with blood elves (demon hunters and nightborne ) or taken over to the horde entirely (Suramar).

    so much good its done them.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-03-15 at 11:59 PM.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    I just find it ridiculous that Blizzard thinks it is okay for a race that is self-defined as traitors to exist
    Considering how often elves change their allegiance, void elves can be considered loyalists.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant Commander View Post
    Considering how often elves change their allegiance, void elves can be considered loyalists.
    As long as they suck on human dicks.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant Commander View Post
    Considering how often elves change their allegiance, void elves can be considered loyalists.
    Allegiance to the Horde or Alliance doesn't matter. The disgusting part is being traitors to one's own people, which they are regardless of how you wish to spin it.

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