Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Lieutenant Commander]

I think in last interview there was something about Calia convincing them to return to Alliance.

Yeah, which was supposedly a misinformation. Can't post links yet but he said it yesterday on his twitter account.

[Candy Cough]

I mean its not like the horde has any factions of their own aside from the pvp ones...

[xGLxAnubis]

I'm not. You are. I simply used China as example not because of "race", but because of them being a different group with different ideologies. Race never came into the equation.

You were the one who ignored the point altogether and immediately zero'ed in on "race".

Except that fundamentally, we *aren't* just talking about two groups wit different ideologies. We're talking about different species (Or "races" in WoW terminology) as well. While technically the different species in WoW don't have to align to a specific faction, the way the lore is set up is that they are effectively interchangeable: Tauren are horde, Human are Alliance; along with the other "races". While there are defectors here or there, you don't really have a split. There aren't rampant groups of Human horde or Tauren Alliance. So when talking about faction you are also innately talking about the individual races that make up those factions as well.

So I'm saying that your example doesn't work, because while the topic is technically worded about Horde; we're really talking about the races that make up the horde. Because if a Night Elf went Horde, there would be no real qualms for anyone if they joined the Cenarion Circle; because they're a Night Elf.

And when we take it in that light, it's really about the groups accepting those individual races as neutral, when those factions are actually often fairly prejudice against the races they're allowing themselves to work with/allow in their ranks prior to WoW lore (Because otherwise gameplay would suffer).

And as such, I'm claiming that this is completely not like your example of nationality; It'd be more like a sentient alien species not being allowed in the United States Congress.

[qwerty123456]

It does because it's a similar situation. You're advocating for all Horde races to be kicked out, regardless of affiliations. Do you also advocate for all Alliance races be removed from the Cenarion Circle as well, because of Fandral Staghelm?

Thats a pretty poor example as most Night Elves are intune with nature whereas you have the majority orcs and goblins trashing everything and undead blighting everything they can.

[baskev]

These dark rangers are now Alliance.

euuuuh nope. The dark rangers are now silliereasons minions.

Except the Horde is not content with following humans and night elves. It is Alliance crying about lack of night elf focus.

Not saying the should be. I am saying horde is favorite by alliance.
And yes we are crying about night elf focus ( i know you where sarcastic here and think we got a lot of focus). 75% of the zones of night elves get murder/burned down or turned into forsaken/goblin play grounds. And we got 1 warfront and that is the story conclusion!?!



Oohhh and kirin tor was neutral. and jaina was not the bad girl. Here some reading for you:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran#Prelude

so......

[Moonrage]

So? No one is completely trustworthy, everyone has an agenda and something they want to achieve and besides individual actions does not make up for the whole of any people or should we all be classified by our militaries and leaders then?

The Orcs only need one axe-crazy leader to get into war mode. They're as bloodthirsty as they come and all other races just blindly follow.

[ravenmoon]

Yes but I think they should try. It is better to use old questgiver than to make Zekhan out of nowhere.

Ofc they should try. But how do we let them know this is really important to us? they don't seem to be putting in nearly the same amount of love or care they do with the art or the systems. Like story is secondary. Maybe the creative people don't stand up ienough in the board meetings, or don't have the seniority clout needed to drive a more impactful response.

Shadowlands in an opportunity to resurrect him but I doubt the will care about him when they have Kael'thas to take care of first.

Yes , shadowlands is an opportunity to bring them back. An excellent one. As well as other faves like Kae'thas. A group like the Farondis would be impactful to regenerating the night elves and properly showing their highborne caste in game to boost their lore and story directly, like Suramar and the Nightborne would have been received as if they remained neutral or went alliance. I hope they don't miss the chance. But it will all depend on whether they care or not.

Brann kind of fits with Magni being here but Tae'thelan should appear aswell.

He just seems so bland , even when following the horde. I can get that he is no racist and very open to meeting all manner of species and races, they don't eve have him giving horde banter, it feels so contrived.

But I agree, if Brann must be there, then Tae'thelan should do. However we get something like that in Naz'jatar with the 3 elves, don't we.

[matrix123mko]

Not saying the should be. I am saying horde is favorite by alliance.
And yes we are crying about night elf focus ( i know you where sarcastic here and think we got a lot of focus). 75% of the zones of night elves get murder/burned down or turned into forsaken/goblin play grounds. And we got 1 warfront and that is the story conclusion!?!

It is quite common in WoW that whomever is prevalent in zone is going to be slaughtered. Zandalar is about killing trolls, Mechagon is about killing mechagnomes and so on.

Oohhh and kirin tor was neutral. and jaina was not the bad girl. Here some reading for you:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran#Prelude

so......

They were only officially neutral. I have a question for you. What was leader of Kirin Tor doing in Theramore?

[Evaddon]

The Orcs only need one axe-crazy leader to get into war mode. They're as bloodthirsty as they come and all other races just blindly follow.

Did you even read what I wrote or are you just here to spread anti-horde propaganda?

[cparle87]

All the ones I mentioned were Alliance factions, except the Wardens and the Cenarion Circle.



- The Kirin Tor was founded by humans.
- The Argent Dawn was founded by the survivors of the Knights of the Silver Hand (also humans).
- The Knights of the Silver Hand was also founded by humans. They were founded after the First War and were an Alliance faction up until Legion.
- The Cenarion Circle was founded by the Night Elves 10 000 years ago.
- The Wardens were also founded by the Night Elves.

None of these factions were created by the Horde.



Fair enough, still doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Maiev to trust literally everyone. She didn't even trust the Highborne in Stormrage.



The Kirin Tor was very clearly betrayed by the Horde in MoP. The Horde attacked the homeland of the Night Elves and nearly killed the leader of the CC. I'd classify that as betrayal.

Kirin Tor was co-founded by humans and high elves, and the former only even had mages because of the latter.

[Ielenia]

Except that fundamentally, we *aren't* just talking about two groups wit different ideologies. We're talking about different species (Or "races" in WoW terminology) as well.

Which, at their core, means they are two different groups with different ideologies.

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Thats a pretty poor example as most Night Elves are intune with nature whereas you have the majority orcs and goblins trashing everything and undead blighting everything they can.

Yeah, and so what? None of those races are part of the Cenarion Circle. And as for the Argent Crusade, look at the characters: they're not representative of their respective races' bad traits, like Leonid Barthalomew.

[matrix123mko]

Ofc they should try. But how do we let them know this is really important to us? they don't seem to be putting in nearly the same amount of love or care they do with the art or the systems. Like story is secondary. Maybe the creative people don't stand up ienough in the board meetings, or don't have the seniority clout needed to drive a more impactful response.

Danuser recently said that gameplay leaves little place for dialogue and they have to choose which characters they want to be visible. He said that putting too much of them would make the scenes chaotic and uncomfortable. It is kind of true, as it is hard to imagine a scene where all people who want to kill Arthas gather around him. Video below shows comism of such idea.

Yes , shadowlands is an opportunity to bring them back. An excellent one. As well as other faves like Kae'thas. A group like the Farondis would be impactful to regenerating the night elves and properly showing their highborne caste in game to boost their lore and story directly, like Suramar and the Nightborne would have been received as if they remained neutral or went alliance. I hope they don't miss the chance. But it will all depend on whether they care or not.

Well, I think it indeed is a chance to make something good out of night elves. As Malfurion's followers were incinerated, they can be replaced with highborne.

He just seems so bland , even when following the horde. I can get that he is no racist and very open to meeting all manner of species and races, they don't eve have him giving horde banter, it feels so contrived.

Bronzebeards seem to not care about the war. I wonder where Muradin was for entire expansion.

But I agree, if Brann must be there, then Tae'thelan should do. However we get something like that in Naz'jatar with the 3 elves, don't we.

I like the moments when Alliance and Horde show their attempts at the same thing: goblins and gnomes, mages and magisters, Reliquiary and Explorers' League.

[ravenmoon]

Except that fundamentally, we *aren't* just talking about two groups wit different ideologies. We're talking about different species (Or "races" in WoW terminology) as well. While technically the different species in WoW don't have to align to a specific faction, the way the lore is set up is that they are effectively interchangeable: Tauren are horde, Human are Alliance; along with the other "races". While there are defectors here or there, you don't really have a split. There aren't rampant groups of Human horde or Tauren Alliance. So when talking about faction you are also innately talking about the individual races that make up those factions as well..

I think that changed fully when blood elves went horde. Night elves and forsaken joining the two factions instead of being their own already altered the outlook because how different they are. The undead zombie world, and the night world are very distinctive and they have an entire and complete set to literally be worlds or at least continents of their own.



Pandaren, along with blood/void elves and night/nborne elves makes it such that with at least certain races that distinction isn't so celar cut .. and that is fine. they really should be their own factions.


I would love the game to return to several factions. Night elves their own faction, Forsaken therirs. Horde being Orcs/Tauren/Goblins. Alliance being humans/dwarves/gnomes

it's fine for a faction of THalassian high elves to ally with the humans, or the faction sub-group of night elves like the Nightborne be with the blood elves, - it's okay to have little .

But THe night elves - from druids, to highborne, illidari, to Moonguard, priestesses, sentinels, wardens - temples, cities , forests of the night elf variety are all their faction. And while you get a taste of the night elves in the Nightborne allied with the blood elves, you get the full flavours on the night elves. Same with the void elf, you may get a taste of it on the alliance, but if you want the full assets and the Thalassian elven thing, it's on the blood elf faction which has blood, high, darkfallen, fel, san'layn etc.

[Ielenia]

You're just saying "the Horde was just following orders" in a fancy way. Point is that the Horde has a history of blindly following bloodthirsty Warchiefs. It's not "any big group of people" it's almost always the Horde.

No, I'm not. Because "just following orders" means knowing what they're doing is wrong, and they have no reason to do it other than 'following orders'. The alternative I presented means convincing the people and troops that what they're doing is right.

Can I get a source for said retcon please.

Sure. Here it is.

Assuming Sylvanas has sent spies to infiltrate certain organisations and factions is not paranoid. Especially after she lit Teldrassil on fire.

Yes, it is.

No, because the Cenarion Circle was founded by the Night Elves, obviously they're not going to kick out their own race.

Ramuul Runetotem co-leads the Cenarion Circle alongside Malfurion and Cenarius.

And yes I am advocating for all Horde races to be kicked out. They've proven time and time again that they can't be trusted. Again, why take the risk?

Your reasoning is wrong. To avoid using less 'charged' words, you're basically "profiling" here: "All chinese people are bad" when the Chinese government does something bad. "All arabs are bad" when the arab governments do something bad. "All North Koreans are bad" when the North Korea government does something bad.

[Moonrage]

Kirin Tor was co-founded by humans and high elves, and the former only even had mages because of the latter.

That’s just plain false, dalaran was founded by human magi.

[cparle87]

That’s just plain false, dalaran was founded by human magi.

There wouldn't BE any human magi if the high elves hadn't taught them magic in the first place. And high elves had lived there alongside them since the beginning. Kael was even on their ruling council and he wasn't the first. It would be like you arguing that Cenarius doesn't have any place in the Moonglade, even though the only reason there even ARE night elf druids is him.

[matrix123mko]

That’s just plain false, dalaran was founded by human magi.

Dalaran was founded by human merchants that were later bought out by human magi.

[Feanoro]

Gee, what a surprise, the arguments in favor of the Horde include accusing other posters of racism. How obsessed do you have to be to use such an insult towards another real person over FICTIONAL characters? I mean, one post even said something like "anti-Horde propaganda" ffs.

The Horde has consistently been written as acting for the greater good only when their asses are on the line too. The minute they're not in danger from World Ender Du Jour, they instantly turn murderous on anyone not in the Horde. Take it up with the writers if you don't like that, because they think that's what Horde fans want. See the Blizzcon cheering and chest thumping. See the loud, vitriolic reactions towards peace. See the widespread Horde fan sentiment of wanting to "crush Alliance skulls" while Alliance fans would like to have an actual story that isn't "Oh the Horde massacred us again! Get the forgiveness parties ready!"

[Alvito]

This irks me even more tbh.

You can't keep trying to blend game play reasons with understanding lore, female druids is a good example. You also can't keep lumping the actions of some people in one faction onto all the people in that faction. If we did should we kick all humans or the Alliance out of the Kirin Tor and Dalaran because of Jaina murder of the Blood Elves there, of course not. As for things like Argent Dawn they were looking at the bigger picture, beating and dealing with the Lich King and the Scourge. Along the course of working together to defeat the bigger issue they realized they had other things linking them and didn't split back up.

[Ardenaso]

Then he is a fool. Especially because the Horde has already betrayed the Kirin Tor in the past. Him and Modera are two utter idiots

that's even weird that Modera joins the Kirin Tor and the High Elves against the Sunreavers but later on she is suddenly Aethas' number one fan; looks like she wants him to be in her personal basement dungeon

I prefer to think that Khadgar made a resolution for the Kirin Tor to mind the Wound and the Old Gods instead of the Faction War

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Argents are more like traitors to Lordaeron and by extension to the Alliance. They were a mistake.

Not really, they were working with the Horde to deal with the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade

However, yes really, they didn't even care about their fellow countrymen in Hillsbrad and Southshore getting massacred by the Horde; I was even expecting them to join Anduin and Saurfang against Sylvanas since she was like being Arthas 2.0

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And why should the Cenarion Circle kick out Horde races? That'd be like saying my company should fire all (for example) Chinese people from their employee list, because the Chinese government did something bad, regardless if the chinese employees agree or not with their country's government's decisions.

I would fire the Chinese employees if they were sympathetic to the cause that includes killing me off because Xi Jinping told them so and they followed without hesitation

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Nvm, I just realized that I forgot that Hamuul and the Horde druids were all sent to the Wound away from the war and Malfurion probably forgave them