Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[ravenmoon]

I think this is a later stance that came about after much discussion about what the elves were.

It is my opinion that the majority thought was that Night elves banished the Highborne in almost all cases. those Exiled beings are what turned into the high elves and the high elves turned into the blood elves.

The Shendralar were the only pocket of OG pre-sundering elves that didn't get word of the banishing/exile

This was the lore of the time in cataclysm that was later mucked up because other shit also wound up happening.

I'm not trying to argue the CURRENT lore. I'm stating what the lore was going into Cataclysm.

So this whole Highborne were night elves thing that you're going to go on about was not what the story was pushing. The story at that time was "night elves kicked out the highborne".

Later retcons changed shit so now we sit here and wonder why Shendralar came out looking like normal night elves and not mutated somehow.

Oh, I use to think that way, but others challenged me. I use to think night elves were pure nature followers (as you can see I like druids), and had evolved to such a state they didn't need civilziation and stuff, only pure nature. Was opposed to night elf mages and hated night elf origins switching to dark trolls.

I was wrong, and had formed my view on partial information, not the full picture given. Since those days, I actually went back and viewed the whole thing being interested in the race, totally changed my view of the night elves, gave me a much better understanding, but found out I really liked what I saw. I liked that i saw night elves as powerful arcane wielders and powerful nature wielders and that the two were different and distinct, not melded but more like a duality, this was shown in having a great civilziation and also in great harmony with nature through both eras. Found myself loving the ferocity and rage of magically imbued and fel using demon hunters.. and I really felt that they had a beautiful combination going the full range from highborne high magic types, to humble forest magic druid types, then female warrior priestess types, and then edge lord demon hunter/fel caster types. Each was a unique and interesting facet, and all fit together in a race. I noticed night elvews were a race, and not a 1 trick small group, the plans were much bigger. They felt as diverse as humans and orcs, and I respected blizz for this, because most of the time in fantasy, races are like cliched groups, having this one thing about them and nothing else. They feel so contrived. Not these, these were interesting and intriguing.

Insightful Observations
I noticed that the arcane and the highborne, were a core part of the night elf lore, and actually their absence, is only brief, in WC3, but seeing they are mentioned in the manual, and a lot more show up in the book released later but was in development at the same time as WC3, and wow (it was 3 novels remember) ... The conclusion I reached, was they were always meant to be a part. Blizzard was never making night elves forest elves, but always intended them to be a combination fo dark elf and forest elf, like a duality.


1.1 had Dire Maul and the highborne as a major dungoen. Then cataclysm introduced same highborne as polayable on joining the night elves and re-building the highborne caste. Now as this a change of mind/directon or always teh intention?

I believe now it was the later. Always the intention.. becaus eof what they preseented the night elf as, and the story they wove. From the outset, the night elves were born from the arcane and gifted highly with it. Build a great civlizaiton, and the story shows they ban it dfor 10k years not because they hate it, buut becuas eusing it is dangerous because it calls the Legion back. But htis happens in the fery chapter they are introduced.. Seeing that more warcraft installments were already in devleopment and planning while WC3 was being designed, tells me this was the start of our experience of them and a continuation of a story that they gave a 15,000 year history before we meet them in game.

Furthermore, the fact that the legion does return and that invalidates the reason for the ban implies that the new era post WC3, would be different. The long vigil is not hte permanennt state, neither was the pre-sundering era, they are both stages along thes tory that show asepcts of the nighte lves. We join them, when a new future and path is upon them, and it seems both the restrictuion on the arcane isn't necessary, nor is the need to be in isoaltion etc, that is not ngiht elf definign it was just part of the stoyr.

WotA trilogy and their origin story already stated in WC3, shows you waht they are actually about.. great arcane users, naturally born to it, and lovers of nature.

Wo why did playable highborne take so long or the story shown in cata take so long to show up? and it seemsa bit convenient when new class race combos come out, almost like it was just an after throught or just part of the new combos , nothing else.

however:
The Evidence that Fueled My Conclusions

1. The highborne return had an entire book focused on it, and more NPC and story represtnation than any other class combo in the game. We see schools of night elves in Azshara and Feralas, studying magic, their presence quite emphatic.. this is way more effort than tauren sunwalkers, orc mages, human hunters. gnome priest, Dwarf mages/locks and the rest of the new combos
2. There is another reason for the delay. Night elves were not the focus. If you notice, night elves got zero story development from Calssic till Cata. In fact, hardly any alliance race did, much more work went into teh horde. understandlbly becuase the horde wasn't popular and needed building, so focus switched to them. Popular, and very popoular alliance races like night elves though a major part of the hstory fro mthe previous series, were put on the backburner, humans being the face of the alliance couldn't be ignored such, so they saw development. TBC had nothing about the night elf race though it was about Illidan ..which was weird (Maiev's cameo, and so little time on the demon hunters... and befor eyou mention Cenarion Expedition and Blades Edge, those were DRUID enclaves, easily noticed by teh tauren there.. no night elf lore.


this explains it, they not wanting to make alliance races look good or desirable explains the lack of development.. and it is telling that the moemnt they actually do the development once more, i.e. cata, they bring in teh arcane side of the night elves which ahsn't been seen, but again, because cata is about shaman and Thrall and Dragonflight, you don't see too much. you do vsiit the Well of Eternity in the time travel bit though.. Next tiem nighte lves are shown, is Legion, which is a night elf zone.. the broken isles..and guess what you see? Highborne, nightborne (the new night elf sub-race), Moonguard - and a lot of work in showing a pristine night elven city.. anda lot of night elven lore fro teh WotA trilogy, including Black rook hold, wth Lord Ravencrest, The Wardens, teh demon huunters, and Val'sharah the birthplace of druidsm, The fabled Cathedral of Eternal night, the most holy site to the night elves dubbed the tomb of Sargeras by the humans.

You see the full breadth of the night lf race in Legion, no one who plays legioni should doubt that highborne, nightborne, moonguard, demon hunters, wardens, priestesses of the moon and druids are not a core part of the night elf.. it lliterally takes many famous aspects of their lore that were never shown in game but in 5 novels and shows you.

[Ardenaso]

I don't remember the horde betraying the kirin tor in MoP. I remember Jaina abusing her authority and ignoring the Council entirely to throw a tantrum targeting civilians who weren't even involved.

argent crusade isn't the Argent dawn. Lets start there... and I don't believe teh argent dawn was actually part of the 'Alliance' to begin with. The Silver hand was, to be sure, but that is what broke down into the Scarlet Crusade and the Argent Dawn following the events of the third war.

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).[p/quote]

This was true in Legion, but the Knights of the Silver Hand show up to fight exclusively for the alliance in Arathi and the blood elf and tauren paladins are not counted among their numbers.

Looking at their page post BFA has no horde ranks among it

Leadership of the circle isn't exclusively in Malfurion's hands. It seems to be Malfurion, Hamuul Runetotem, Cenarius.. and the player cause fuck all for sensible story telling (Silver Hand has a similar problem).

Also I'm not sure I'd lump the expedition and the Circle into the same category.


This one is fucked from the get go because it turns out the wardens are already changing their tune by working with their jailed subjects or turning to join the legion...

Argent Dawn/Crusade came from the Alliance of Lordaeron, not the Grand Alliance

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Do I have to speak about all the Horde factions that were obliterated? Stormreavers and Sunfury are only the tip of an iceberg.

Stormreavers were from the Old Horde, not Thrall's New Horde. I'm sure the Sunfury isn't even sponsored by the Horde

[Surfd]

I mean... being founded by humans kind of implies that it's an Alliance faction?.

By this logic, the Defias Brotherhood is also an Alliance Faction. Which you and I both know is a pants on head retarded interpretation.

The alliance does NOT speak for all of humanity just because it happens to have humans in it.

Again, as has been pointed out repeatedly, almost all of the mentioned factions were never "Alliance" factions to begin with. They were largely neutral factions, or factions with their own specific agendas, who happen to work with the alliance at some points in time. This does not make them beholden to the alliance, or members of it, in any way.

[Raisei]

Then he is a fool. Especially because the Horde has already betrayed the Kirin Tor in the past. Him and Modera are two utter idiots.

He is indeed. Jaina should just step in there, show him a picture of Teldrassil and say "I TOLD YOU SO". The most funny thing is that in the Legion Mage class campaign you do get wind of an attempt of a Sunreaver to betray the Kirin Tor to the Legion and you are told to cover it up, to keep the peace.
Obviously when it became evident that the Horde could not be trusted in the Blood War and that Jaina was absolutely right in her protest, Khadgar was nowhere to be found.

[cparle87]

Highborne were always night elves and became playable in cata

I'm pretty sure the night elf mage playable characters are not actually highborne themselves, but were simply taught how to be mages by the highborne Shen'dralar who were allowed to rejoin greater night elf society in Cata. Though if you want to RP as that yourself knock yourself out.

[Newname1234567890]

I mean... being founded by humans kind of implies that it's an Alliance faction? .

The Scarlett Crusade, Syndicate, Fogsail pirates, Ashvene Company, Wastewander are all Allaince factions?

[omeomorfismo]

It's worse. Becuse the alliance was so popular, they intentionally didn't write roles and development for the night elves. The developments tehy gave had hardly any depth, most of the background knowledge coming in books

Night elves have more books about htem than any other race.

4 - on the pre-sundering civilizatio, a lot on the arcane side of the highborne and the new society
1 - on Illidan and the demon hunters
1 - Malfurion Stormrage and the Emerald Dream.

But in-game:

• Classic - starting zones

no-development and minimal involvement till

• Cata - every race gets a revamp - minimal in game presentation of the highborne, night elves rubbish and beaten everywhere

no - development and minimal involvement till

• Legion - the only really balanced night elf presentation - Bringing to life the War of the Ancients zones and peoples. You had druids (Val'Sharah), arcane wing of the night elves shown properly in Suramar with the Nightborne and Moonguard, then Azsuna showing highborne country. Demon hunters, Wardens, Huntresses, and the Cathedral of Eternal night.

Very sparse = largely ignored in game. Most of night elf lore is in books. 5 major novels and half of the other material like novellas and

wut? classic no nelf development? if half of kalidmor are nelf ruins with endless quests where you go there for some reason.
damn even legion 3 of 5 start zone are plagued by nelf everywere, to the point that playing forsaken or dk is basically nonsense in valsharan.

and druid thing isnt nelf thing? all the druid lore and mechanics are based on them. all troll druidism that exists since at least zul gurub is completely ignored even now with the zandalari playable. damn, balance not even make any sense outside of nelf druids, even the tauren are so meaningless that could be cutter altogether and nothing wont change in the story

[Ardenaso]

The Scarlett Crusade, Syndicate, Fogsail pirates, Ashvene Company, Wastewander are all Allaince factions?

Although the Scarlet Crusade isn't an Alliance faction, it is an Alliance of Lordaeron faction

[baskev]

Jaina was setting traps specificaly to prevent Horde from getting the bell. When the Horde went around them, she started a tantrum.

and i a 10 feet tall. proof of this please and i will believe you.
But until its ingame/books it aint true.

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That doesn't change the fact that Dalaran helped Theramore against the Horde. And before Jaina went to Dalaran to ask them for help she herself admitted that requesting their help would be asking them to break their neutrality...

Yes, i agree.
But after that she was still allowing the horde in dalaran even AFTER they bombed her home town and killed her friends.
If she was trully not neutral she would have kicked them out already after theramore...she did not.

Ah, yes, the Ebon Blade - an organization that resurrects people as ghoul slaves (even just to torment them like they did to the Scarlet Onslaught) - totally cares about undead free will. Also, the Shaman organization was originally Horde.

Yes shamans are horde..hell they main daddy is green jeebus. But they are all for the elements. The horde in both garrosh version and sylvannas ( and still the goblins) has proven to be less then...nice to the elements. So why side with a group that has already ff'ed you over 2 times and is still not nice?? < question of the thread.

And yes ebon blade ghouls mindless zombies. But they do go out and kill people and force them into dk.....

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I think you're to quickly trying to lay blame for all the races/denizens of a group because of a fringe group. By that logic do we pan all the humans because of Medivh's actions?

Nope, the thread ask why they still support the horde.
And fringe group...the whole horde followed 2 mad people...twice...
Something different then 1 mad scientist at wrathgate or 1 insane alliance member.

IMO the nation of Dalaran went neutral likely due to the fact that some members of council sought out forces that wound up in the horde and council wound up taking on that whole joke of a mindset of uniting against real threats instead of faction war.

Yes they tried to. And jaina failed somewhat in that regard. After the horde did some stupid stuff.

It's not like only horde leaders have gone off the deep end and caused mass casualties... but we just keep blaming the horde everytime one does. When an alliance figure head does it they are exorcised from the faction with a quickness and almost entirely forgotten that they were every associated with the group.

Nope we do not.
And agian in the story so far the bigger and more often deadly attacks are horde ones.
Take this expansion alone. alliance attack dazahalor vs burning of teldrassil , wrecking 2 other night elf zones. And attack stormsong vally.

Hell, we're still picking up the pieces from when the last Guardian threw a fit.

Yup. And i not saying alliance is not bad.

The question of the thread starter ( a thing many of you clearly miss because i said: horde does bad stuff). Is the following:
If the horde ( several times) attacks the core believes and are made up of or started by alliance races...why are they still allowing horde into them?!

[Lolites]

Their respective leaders are generally more interested in the goal their order was created to achieve than the on-and-off faction war. If you're unwilling to accept any sort of comparisons, you'll just have to accept that this is how they were written.

And in any case, of those that you listed, only the Kirin Tor has really experienced a betrayal from their Horde members, and even that's debatable.

on the other hand cenarion circle had experienced betrayal from alliance (fandral), Argent dawn came to existence bcs of human fanatics (now known as scarlet crusade), wardens mision of guarding one night elf (ilidan) was compromised by another (tyrande) and so on, but that doesnt push OPs agenda so he chose to ignore that and make facts claiming "horde bad"

[baskev]

Alliance killed goblin miners first. And there was an assassination attempt at Sylvanas.

Yes, mining a WMD....that is not a act of war/dangerous at all. THats why in real life we do not have sanctions on enemy states for doing the same thing :S

I was asking about Rhonin, who apparently wasn't Theramorian.

was not clear.

As I said, I was talking about Rhonin defending Theramore.

was not clear.
And still timeline is broken. We are talking about breaking the neutrallity and kicking out the horde of dalaran.

Horde is the most of Azeroth's shaman population and trolls worshipped wild gods before night elves started existing. And elements don't care about burning woods.
They do that only when it is needed. For example, when Jaina has to be put down to win a war.

Shamans: Yup. But both garrosh and sylvanas have shown little regard to the elements. And neither do goblins. So reason to still aligne themselves with horde? And the elements care about the elements...you know the things they abuse :S

Druids: Yes, but the first druids and leader of the druids is.....the night elves.


And all i see from you and the above (except for a bit @Mehrunes) is the same horde did bad, but so did your alliance.

Not my ( or the threads point).
Yes the alliance is bad, YES the alliance did bad stuff 2.
But the threads point is. Seeing as many factions ( not all before you all go mad again). Are made, or led by alliance races. Or filled with. And looking at the fact that the horde has attacked the core believes/people/land/etc of some of these factions. why do these factions still thrust the horde???

[Verdugo]

and i a 10 feet tall. proof of this please and i will believe you.
But until its ingame/books it aint true.

She outright tells you this before you follow her to Dalaran ON ALLIANCE SIDE.

[Mehrunes]

Yes, i agree.
But after that she was still allowing the horde in dalaran even AFTER they bombed her home town and killed her friends.
If she was trully not neutral she would have kicked them out already after theramore...she did not.

But you initially pointed that out in response to @matrix123mko's post about how Dalaran broke neutrality prior to Theramore to prove it wrong. And it just doesn't. Dalaran deciding to go neutral again after Theramore doesn't mean they didn't break neutrality prior to Theramore. Especially since Theramore lead to leadership change. Hell, matrix123mko even acknowledged that before. Though your post after this reply indicates you didn't get that they were talking about honin.

Yes shamans are horde..hell they main daddy is green jeebus. But they are all for the elements. The horde in both garrosh version and sylvannas ( and still the goblins) has proven to be less then...nice to the elements. So why side with a group that has already ff'ed you over 2 times and is still not nice?? < question of the thread.

Goblins are making economic deals with the Elements. Likely shitty deals because it's Goblins, but still just deals. Meanwhile the Dark Irons are literally using not only Dark Shamanism in general, but the same exact Molten Giants that Earthen Ring had issues with Garrosh over.

And yes ebon blade ghouls mindless zombies. But they do go out and kill people and force them into dk.....

Which is better than killing people and forcing them into mindless ghouls how?

and i a 10 feet tall. proof of this please and i will believe you.
But until its ingame/books it aint true.

Jaina flat out says it herself to the Alliance player in an Alliance quest.

Yes, mining a WMD....that is not a act of war/dangerous at all. THats why in real life we do not have sanctions on enemy states for doing the same thing :S

Azerite isn't a WMD. It could potentially be used as material for one but: 1. that hasn't come to pass and the biggest military use it saw was a tank that got destroyed because Anduin smacked its main canon with a sword, and 2. the Alliance didn't know that when they decided to kill Goblins because the very point of them killing Goblins was obtaining more samples so they could learn WTF that is that Horde is mining. And even that aside, WMDs are most certainly not an act of war. That's why the penalty for them is, by your own admission, sanctions. And not military reprisal as would be the case with an actual act of war.

[Newname1234567890]

Although the Scarlet Crusade isn't an Alliance faction, it is an Alliance of Lordaeron faction

You see my point though. Allaince doesn't have a Monopoly on humans.

[ravenmoon]

I'm pretty sure the night elf mage playable characters are not actually highborne themselves, but were simply taught how to be mages by the highborne Shen'dralar who were allowed to rejoin greater night elf society in Cata. Though if you want to RP as that yourself knock yourself out.

They are actually highborne now. All mages are trained by the Shen'dralar and hand picked by t hem to become part of the highborne caste/order.

this is one of the terms agreed in Wolfheart.

the shen'dralar lead the group, but you have Darnassians who were highborne but obeyed the ban doing other things (some turned to druidsm like the Moonguard mages did, others did other things), the lore tells us many took up thier true arcane calling when the ban was lifted on the highborne in an attempts to rebuild their society. The twins in Azsuna are the two most famous examples, however all the lorekeepers in Azshara are returned highborne, not Shend'ralar - which is why their magic seemed quite out of date.

Also all the new novices you see in Azshara zone and Feralas are new highborne.

Chris Metzen specifically said now you can play a 10,000 year old highborne if you want or one just new to the order. however the assumption is, because there is no unique customisation, taht the playable mage is a Darnassian mage either returned or newly picked rather than an actual Shen'dralar.

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wut? classic no nelf development? if half of kalidmor are nelf ruins with endless quests where you go there for some reason.

damn even legion 3 of 5 start zone are plagued by nelf everywere, to the point that playing forsaken or dk is basically nonsense in valsharan.

and druid thing isnt nelf thing? all the druid lore and mechanics are based on them. all troll druidism that exists since at least zul gurub is completely ignored even now with the zandalari playable. damn, balance not even make any sense outside of nelf druids, even the tauren are so meaningless that could be cutter altogether and nothing wont change in the story

Classic is the developmenmnt.. there is no development after the release. the story of the night elves isn't advanced, or furthered. The plot with Fandral doesn't get continued till Stormrage novel and Cataclysm expansion. The night elves as a race aren't shown to be doing anything (the activity happens in 2 books set after WotLK - Stormrage and Wolfheart). Before Cata now advances the story of the race = ignored (till cata - if I must spell it out now)

Please try to understand what I'm saying and at least if you don't give me the benefit of the doubt that I am fully aware of the night elf zones in classic. If you do, you would quickly realise I meant the race is not developed after the material you get introduced to in classic - at least in game.

Also what made you thinkZul'gurub lore is not ignored for druidsm, those aren't druids, they are priests abusing the power of their loa, this is why they don't fully turn into animals but half animal creatures. zul'gurub has nothing to do with druidsm, torlll druidsm lore is introduced in Cataclysm, then expanded in BFA with the Zndalari and Gonk who initiated the darksepar druidsm movement in Cata via the former priest Zentabra.

[VladlTutushkin]

I would have posted something longer but people before summed up it nicely. So i will just quote Baskev: “If they do not horde will cry. And we can not have horde be sad.“

[Grazrug]

I would have posted something longer but people before summed up it nicely. So i will just quote Baskev: “If they do not horde will cry. And we can not have horde be sad.“

You're weirdly obsessed with the horde for someone this loyal to the alliance.

[omeomorfismo]

Classic is the developmenmnt.. there is no development after the release. the story of the night elves isn't advanced, or furthered. The plot with Fandral doesn't get continued till Stormrage novel and Cataclysm expansioin.

Please try to understand what I'm saying and at least if you don't give me the benefit of the doubt that I am fully aware of the night elf zones in classic. If you do, you would quickly realise I meant the race is not developed after the material you get introduced to in classic - at least in game.

Zul'gurub lore is not ignored for druidsm, those aren't druids, they are priests abusing the power of their loa, this is why they don't fully turn into animals but half animal creatures. zul'gurub has nothing to do with druidsm, torlll druidsm lore is introduced in Cataclysm, then expanded in BFA with the Zndalari and Gonk who initiated the darksepar druidsm movement in Cata via the former priest Zentabra.

but thats true for everyone. human story were MIA until wotlk, orcs are basically ignored everytime they should appear (all tbc could be sum up as "we found garrosh" and 7.3 is criminally ally focused). at least nelf setting is expanded more than all the other races combined (and damn blizz has the fucking troll mine where they could dig what they want instead to use them as recurrent punching ball).

cata "druidism" isnt nothing more than bow the troll's druid style to a nelf druid setting.
and thats the problem, troll priest/druid/shaman doesnt make any sense, they are completely bowed on human priest/ nelf druid / orc shaman.
its the same with tauren/zandalari paladins. they are basically light druids, basically all troll priests are whatevertheirloause druid.
in retrospective blizz shoud have to give druid to only the nelf and make "witch doctors" for the trolls, maybe using feral and rejuvenation as common specs and balance/vodoo race specific.
but now we have all these abominations, druid priest paladin, that always are reduced to a single race (nelf and humans basically) in every single development

btw the zul'gurub high priests are basically the specific loa counterparts of the ones in the conclave of the chosen in bod raid. probably their hibryd form could be seen as a corrupted form by hakkar or simply like the wod talent "Claws of Shirvallah"

[Kajitheninja]

1. There are neutral factions across the world that dont care what race you are as long as your there to help. Cenarion Circle/Expedition, Argent Dawn/Crusade. The goal of these factions is to stop the destruction of Azeroth

2. The Kirin Tor is led by Khadgar who knows that the horde are not bad people and also knows the Kirin Tor are stronger with the horde.

The races of Azeroth have worked together way before the factions were a thing and they can understand that even when 1 race or person from that race is evil it doesnt make them all evil.

[Nerovar]

It's really an idiotic development that serves no one. It prevents the Horde from developing their own identities, it waters down the identities of Alliance factions (and make no mistake, a faction founded by humans mostly consisting of humans that was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron is an Alliance faction) preventing them from developing in any meaningful way that isn't holding hands with your enemies and singing kumbaya. The Knights of the Silver Hand were founded to combat the Horde. Up until Cataclysm every human paladin was automatically addressed as a Knight of the Silver Hand and then suddenly the Argent Crusade decides it's time for rebranding and starts accepting literal heretics that have fought their own people for years into their ranks.

Give me a break.


Ultimately, this is the result of Blizzard's post-classic take on world building where everything has to be accessible to everyone, every faction is completely woke and everyone can overcome their differences to work together for the greater good because you have to stop world ending threat [x] after all. It's bland, it's boring, it's unimaginative and it doesn't make for good stories.