Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[baskev]

She outright tells you this before you follow her to Dalaran ON ALLIANCE SIDE.

looked up the quest. She preventing them to take a wmd yes.
So i stand corrected.

[Ardac]

Because the idea of the 2 player factions in wow has become silly. Saying the horde betrayed the KT so all Horde should be booted is like saying Arthas betrayed the Alliance so all humans should be kicked out.

Horde druids go from leading the greatest druids of Azeroth, to marching on an alliance city (a freaking world tree) to hold it hostage basically only for at the last min the war chief to say "nah, changed my mind, burn it".

Legion allied races were aided by both factions but picks to go to war with one.

And freaking pandas! We fight for family....or we fight family that joined the other faction.

IMO (and everyone has their own), WoW was better of when Sylvannas was a shady racial leader and her and Genn had a hate on for each other. Anduin and Voljin could have said "we want peace" and those that wanted it could have cross faction grouped or whatever. However each faction could have had a faction of loyalist that think they act for the greater good, lead by Gen / Syl in Warmode that kept the classic war theme going from the shadows.

[ravenmoon]

but thats true for everyone. human story were MIA until wotlk, orcs are basically ignored everytime they should appear (all tbc could be sum up as "we found garrosh" and 7.3 is criminally ally focused). at least nelf setting is expanded more than all the other races combined (and damn blizz has the fucking troll mine where they could dig what they want instead to use them as recurrent punching ball).

It isn't true for everyone though.

Whiles story telling did shift from racial focus to world events involving everyone … still we had advancements. TBC continued the story of the Orcs... what happened to those left on Outland, the ogres, and it was huge on the blood elf lore too (now a horde race, so qualifying as horde lore), then TBC also showed what happened to the Sons of Lothar and those trapped behind the dark portal - humans and high elves (blood elf lore again), we got lore on the draenei - but that is to be expected of a new race.

WotLk had heavy orc involvement, disproportionately too, over say the Forsaken and the Thalassian elves, who had a minor role. Humans dominated again the lore advanced.

cata "druidism" isnt nothing more than bow the troll's druid style to a nelf druid setting.

You're right, becuase they did nothing to make it distinct or separate, continuing the all druidsm is from night elves, rather than give us new forms of it. But then that is lore consistencies though Surely even if its new it should connect somehow to the night elves.. just like Magecraft and demon hunter craft do (the 3 classes the night elves start in Warcraft.

It is because Troll druidsm did not exist before then. even though it looks like Trolls could have done it all on their own (they are certainly intelligent enough) Itwas as you mentioned earlier, a night elf thing. I don't think the troll druid style was fleshed out yet. It was invented then, but the fleshing out comes in BFA with the Gonk Zanadalari followers. I don't know if it was mentioned, but they haven't druids until recently because the lore said Gonk firsit initiates druidsm in cata.

This gives them an opportunity to flesh it out considerably though. I hope one day they would vary the spells on classes as they cross the racaial line, give each race distinctive enough versions of the more selective classes when they cross the racial barrier.

and thats the problem, troll priest/druid/shaman doesnt make any sense, they are completely bowed on human priest/ nelf druid / orc shaman.
its the same with tauren/zandalari paladins. they are basically light druids, basically all troll priests are whatevertheirloause druid.
in retrospective blizz shoud have to give druid to only the nelf and make "witch doctors" for the trolls, maybe using feral and rejuvenation as common specs and balance/vodoo race specific.

Preaching to the choir babes. I feel that classes on certain races should adapt, not just literally be the same concept as they are on that race. Troll druidsm should have different spells, - there is no way trolls are using star magic (solar, lunar, stellar) that's so a night elf thing - children of the stars, highborne, Nightborne, priestesses.. it just feels so weird. They should have at least renamed the spelsl and given them visuals to match.


Which is what puzzles me, is it that hard? Tidesages could use the shaman class, but they would have totally different names for spells and visuals,

but now we have all these abominations, druid priest paladin, that always are reduced to a single race (nelf and humans basically) in every single development

Agreed, I don't like it, I know it's possible ofc, but I think they should do a lot of careful work when it comes to player class/race thigns, because they form a core part of the identity. More work than they've done should have been given.

btw the zul'gurub high priests are basically the specific loa counterparts of the ones in the conclave of the chosen in bod raid. probably their hibryd form could be seen as a corrupted form by hakkar or simply like the wod talent "Claws of Shirvallah"

I thought they were corrupted by Hakkar which is why they were siphoning power of their loa to themselves, allowing them to get great abilities and transfomrations. There pursuit of power leading to this ofc

[baskev]

But you initially pointed that out in response to @matrix123mko's post about how Dalaran broke neutrality prior to Theramore to prove it wrong. And it just doesn't. Dalaran deciding to go neutral again after Theramore doesn't mean they didn't break neutrality prior to Theramore. Especially since Theramore lead to leadership change. Hell, matrix123mko even acknowledged that before. Though your post after this reply indicates you didn't get that they were talking about honin.

I responded a post in a thread about a subject. So hench its about the thread subject and the post relation to it.
She was preventing mass murder and helping evacuting theramore. Hell even horde thought it was bad and warned the alliance.....So was it a grey area thing...yeah. But did she kick out sunreavers nope.

And yes i said i was wrong. thought we where talking about jaina.

Goblins are making economic deals with the Elements. Likely shitty deals because it's Goblins, but still just deals. Meanwhile the Dark Irons are literally using not only Dark Shamanism in general, but the same exact Molten Giants that Earthen Ring had issues with Garrosh over.

You just side stepped the 2 other bad things and said but goblins are less evil.
Yes they are like you said less evil. But where the dark irons as a group ( sub group) do something bad. The goblins are from a faction that has done bad things...twice to them.

Which is better than killing people and forcing them into mindless ghouls how?

Neither, you are moving goal posts now.
They are both bad. But the DK's do not go about mass murdering whole zones to add to their numbers.

Jaina flat out says it herself to the Alliance player in an Alliance quest.

Yes, should it be a horde quest? or a neutral quest only for alliance players?

Azerite isn't a WMD. It could potentially be used as material for one but: 1. that hasn't come to pass and the biggest military use it saw was a tank that got destroyed because Anduin smacked its main canon with a sword, and 2. the Alliance didn't know that when they decided to kill Goblins because the very point of them killing Goblins was obtaining more samples so they could learn WTF that is that Horde is mining. And even that aside, WMDs are most certainly not an act of war. That's why the penalty for them is, by your own admission, sanctions. And not military reprisal as would be the case with an actual act of war.

Azerite is....have you seen the bombs made of it? Its like nucliar material.
And again you are sidestepping the point.



Before this becomes a other qoute war. Here my thoughts on all of it.

This thread mehrunes is about why are certain factions ( paladins per example). That originate or are lett by alliance race members still so happy with the horde. I added some other factions because they have been also wronged a lot by the horde.
I am not saying the Horde is bad, or they should be kicked out. But lore wise i think its a valid question. why?!?
I have provided some example's. But because i said something bad about the horde people like you are trying to find everything wrong with my text. because they think i am bias or something.
Instead of looking at the grand picture. Yes i will make lore mistakes no one is perfect.

So let me be clear. I do not think the alliance is perfect, and it also has done bad things.
But in the question of factions like druids, priests, paladins, shamans and other non alliance/horde factions. And their feelings towards the horde. i do think seeing what the horde has done. They might be less popular and think sometimes...why do we still allow horde in our group or why do we still thrust the horde.

Oohh and ty for starting a qoute war again...you clearly wanted one. because i see other lore mistakes before and after me but you only respond to me .....sigh.

[Daronokk]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde.

It's because Horde factions and heroes are constantly turned into villains and killed off while the Alliance counterparts survive. So the only way to create a story is by using the Alliance factions and heroes and turn them neutral.

You might think it's insulting to the Alliance. But the biggest insult is that the Horde can't even have decent characters and factions.

[Mehrunes]

I responded a post in a thread about a subject. So hench its about the thread subject and the post relation to it.
She was preventing mass murder and helping evacuting theramore. Hell even horde thought it was bad and warned the alliance.....So was it a grey area thing...yeah. But did she kick out sunreavers nope.

And yes i said i was wrong. thought we where talking about jaina.

If you were talking about Jaina you were even more wrong because Jaina most certainly was not neutral at that point. She was the leader of Theramore, an Alliance nation. Which was as far from neutral as one could get in a Horde-Alliance conflict.

You just side stepped the 2 other bad things and said but goblins are less evil.
Yes they are like you said less evil. But where the dark irons as a group ( sub group) do something bad. The goblins are from a faction that has done bad things...twice to them.

The stark majority of the Horde opposed Garrosh, most of the Shamans included. And what's the second Horde bad thing if not the Goblins?

Neither, you are moving goal posts now.
They are both bad. But the DK's do not go about mass murdering whole zones to add to their numbers.

I'm not moving the goalposts. You tried to paint the Ebon Blade as some benevolent faction that gives a shit about free will of the undead. They are not. Meanwhile the stark majority of the undead resurrected by the Forsaken have free will, with the only exception being a temporary meatshield of undead constructs.

Yes, should it be a horde quest? or a neutral quest only for alliance players?

No one said it should be? The point was that it being an Alliance quest only is a rather clear indication on Jaina's stance at that point. Besides, you already admitted to @Verdugo you were wrong about that one.

Azerite is....have you seen the bombs made of it? Its like nucliar material.

That would make the bombs the WMDs, not Azerite itself. Not that I've seen WMD level Azerite bombs.

And again you are sidestepping the point.

I'm not sidestepping the point. I'm perfectly aware what the main topic of the thread is. The particular comment about WMDs wasn't about that nor was it in a reply to a comment about the main topic. I was replying precisely on point of what I was replying to.

Before this becomes a other qoute war. Here my thoughts on all of it.

This thread mehrunes is about why are certain factions ( paladins per example). That originate or are lett by alliance race members still so happy with the horde. I added some other factions because they have been also wronged a lot by the horde.
I am not saying the Horde is bad, or they should be kicked out. But lore wise i think its a valid question. why?!?
I have provided some example's. But because i said something bad about the horde people like you are trying to find everything wrong with my text. because they think i am bias or something.
Instead of looking at the grand picture. Yes i will make lore mistakes no one is perfect.

So let me be clear. I do not think the alliance is perfect, and it also has done bad things.
But in the question of factions like druids, priests, paladins, shamans and other non alliance/horde factions. And their feelings towards the horde. i do think seeing what the horde has done. They might be less popular and think sometimes...why do we still allow horde in our group or why do we still thrust the horde.

But I haven't said a word about about you thinking the Alliance is perfect or saying that the Horde is bad. Nor do I disagree that the question posed by the OP is valid (though the examples of Ebon Blade and Earthen Ring are the weakest ones out of all the non-playable factions).

Oohh and ty for starting a qoute war again...you clearly wanted one. because i see other lore mistakes before and after me but you only respond to me .....sigh.

I responded to most recent post that picked my attention out of the few most recent posts that showed up after I clicked the "view most recent posts" button because I didn't want to read through the entire thread.

[omeomorfismo]

It isn't true for everyone though.

Whiles story telling did shift from racial focus to world events involving everyone … still we had advancements. TBC continued the story of the Orcs... what happened to those left on Outland, the ogres, and it was huge on the blood elf lore too (now a horde race, so qualifying as horde lore), then TBC also showed what happened to the Sons of Lothar and those trapped behind the dark portal - humans and high elves (blood elf lore again), we got lore on the draenei - but that is to be expected of a new race.

WotLk had heavy orc involvement, disproportionately too, over say the Forsaken and the Thalassian elves, who had a minor role. Humans dominated again the lore advanced.



You're right, becuase they did nothing to make it distinct or separate, continuing the all druidsm is from night elves, rather than give us new forms of it. But then that is lore consistencies though Surely even if its new it should connect somehow to the night elves.. just like Magecraft and demon hunter craft do (the 3 classes the night elves start in Warcraft.

It is because Troll druidsm did not exist before then. even though it looks like Trolls could have done it all on their own (they are certainly intelligent enough) Itwas as you mentioned earlier, a night elf thing. I don't think the troll druid style was fleshed out yet. It was invented then, but the fleshing out comes in BFA with the Gonk Zanadalari followers. I don't know if it was mentioned, but they haven't druids until recently because the lore said Gonk firsit initiates druidsm in cata.

This gives them an opportunity to flesh it out considerably though. I hope one day they would vary the spells on classes as they cross the racaial line, give each race distinctive enough versions of the more selective classes when they cross the racial barrier.



Preaching to the choir babes. I feel that classes on certain races should adapt, not just literally be the same concept as they are on that race. Troll druidsm should have different spells, - there is no way trolls are using star magic (solar, lunar, stellar) that's so a night elf thing - children of the stars, highborne, Nightborne, priestesses.. it just feels so weird. They should have at least renamed the spelsl and given them visuals to match.


Which is what puzzles me, is it that hard? Tidesages could use the shaman class, but they would have totally different names for spells and visuals,

Agreed, I don't like it, I know it's possible ofc, but I think they should do a lot of careful work when it comes to player class/race thigns, because they form a core part of the identity. More work than they've done should have been given.

I thought they were corrupted by Hakkar which is why they were siphoning power of their loa to themselves, allowing them to get great abilities and transfomrations. There pursuit of power leading to this ofc

continued? it ended kargath story and introduced garrosh. thats all. there are literal more dragon lore advancement than orc one. and yes, there is tons of blood elf stuff because you know, they were introduced exactly like the draenei (sans the giga retcon).
sons of lothar stuff isnt advacement, otherwise even knowing the fate of shendralar is nelf lore, or every other nelf ruin full of banshees and ghosts.
i mean, sure, wow can focus only i few races every time, but damn, even if nelf arent to a human level at least they arent at gnome/tauren/ pre bfa troll level , they have even the most expansed setting of everyone that is still developed basically in every expansion (with entire zones/raid based on them)

considering that zul aman bosses literally morphs in fully form, gonk never started druidism in cata, he appeared to darkspears and told them to stop "priesting" one loa at a time (but considering nelf never worshipped others than cenarius/malorne its strange). in bfa he says that long ago he decreed to the rastari that thing, so zandalari druids exists for who know much time.
i mean, we agree, balance is the main problem for the lore, but the rest is simply shorten up as loa/wild god priest=druid

[Trassk]

If you go back to vanilla wow when only horde had shamans, would could have said the earthen ring was a horde faction. Then draenei came in, followed by dwarves, and by the time the earthen ring was introduced to the game in cata, it already had these races in the ring.

[cparle87]

That would make the bombs the WMDs, not Azerite itself. Not that I've seen WMD level Azerite bombs.

By that argument you should be able to get ahold of plutonium or Uranium-238 pretty easily. Oh wait, you can't. Because everyone knows it can be used for WMD and it's heavily, heavily regulated. Use your head, bro. If stuff that can be used to make meth needs ID to buy in a store stuff that can be used to make WMDs are gonna be hella restricted.

[enigma77]

Because the Horde has no real story or identity.

Other than random evil and violence.

[Mehrunes]

By that argument you should be able to get ahold of plutonium or Uranium-238 pretty easily. Oh wait, you can't. Because everyone knows it can be used for WMD and it's heavily, heavily regulated. Use your head, bro. If stuff that can be used to make meth needs ID to buy in a store stuff that can be used to make WMDs are gonna be hella restricted.

I'm sure in your mind you thought you got yourself a sick burn right here, but all you've really got is a flop the size of a galaxy cluster. Uranium and plutonium being controlled substances because they can be used to produce WMDs doesn't actually make them WMDs either. Because words mean things. So it's exactly like what I said about Azerite. So you've countered nothing whatsoever.

And it's not even the only (or even the main) reason why they are controlled substances. Because these are radioactive elements. And even non-WMD material radioactive elements are regulated. Thorium is regulated. Radon is regulated. So on and so forth. Because they are radioactive. And as such inherently a health hazard. Plutonium is also regulated because of energetic security, just like uranium-235.

Not that I even said anything about Azerite being a regulated substance or not. Because it was not a tangent that was raised in the posts on the matter I was replying to. Nor have I said anything even remotely indicating that I thought that one can merrily buy themselves a batch of plutonium. Which you'd know if you actually bothered checking the context of what you're replying to instead of making this disaster of a gotcha.

If you did that you'd also see my previous post where I pointed out that Alliance wasn't killing the Goblins because muh WMDs, because they didn't really know what Azerite even is at that point. Which is actually the reason why they did the killing. It's them not knowing what it was that made them do so as they wanted more samples and that was the most convenient way to get them.

So something tells me the concept of regulated substances doesn't exactly apply here. Because it's highly unlikely the Alliance regulated the ownership of a substance before they learned what that substance is, let alone killed Goblins over them ignoring their regulations. And that's putting aside how Alliance regulations wouldn't apply to the Horde. Or how the Horde mining venture was a state operation ordered by the Warchief, where the rules would be vastly different.

[Lolites]

Horde attacked the Kirin Tor, both in Classic and Cataclysm - see Ambermill and the Dalaran Crater.

Ambermill? you mean the town with heavy military presence build in the forsaken territory?
such atrocity not allowing troops of another country to make a military base on your backyard, how dare the forsaken defend their teritory from foreign sldiers...

[Mehrunes]

Horde attacked the Kirin Tor, both in Classic and Cataclysm - see Ambermill and the Dalaran Crater.

In Vanilla they intruded upon Forsaken territory (and also did some weird nonsense with the leylines in the region which freaked the resident Forsaken Mage out). And by Cataclysm Amber Mill Mages left the Kirin Tor.

[Lieutenant Commander]

In Vanilla they intruded upon Forsaken territory (and also did some weird nonsense with the leylines in the region which freaked the resident Forsaken Mage out).

That territory belonged to Dalaran before forsaken existed as a concept.

And by Cataclysm Amber Mill Mages left the Kirin Tor.

Yeah, and so did the mages around Dalaran crater who were there together with Ansirem and got killed by forsaken too, how convenient.

[Mehrunes]

That territory belonged to Dalaran before forsaken existed as a concept.

Nope. It was Gilnean land and then Gilneans abandoned it together with everything north of their wall. Then Forsaken waltzed into Silverpine and claimed the zone for themselves. And then, just before Vanilla, did the Kirin Tor arrive.

Yeah, and so did the mages around Dalaran crater who were there together with Ansirem and got killed by forsaken too, how convenient.

You know what's convenient ? You trying to argue against quest text flat out calling them former Kirin Tor members.

[cparle87]

Snip

I was about to ask whether you're always so sarcastic, hostile, and one-upsman about your posting, but then I remembered who I was talking to. You know, not everyone goes around posting on the forums trying to get "sick burns in their mind". You might be projecting a bit there.

As for the WMD thing ingredients that can be used to make WMDs are usually covered under the same laws. Having enriched uranium will get you nailed to the wall by the international community as badly as actually having a weapon.

As for the goblin thing, Alliance don't need an excuse to kill people. "Hey, these people have something we want to look at. Let's kill them and take it." Typically Alliance mindset. Of course as soon as the Alliance knew what the stuff could do they immediately jumped on the "anyone who's not us and has this stuff needs to die so they can't use it against us" train.

[Lieutenant Commander]

You know what's convenient ? You trying to argue against quest text flat out calling them former Kirin Tor members.

Find me one quest calling the Dalaran mages around the crater former Dalaran magi. You won't find it.

[ravenmoon]

continued? it ended kargath story and introduced garrosh. thats all. there are literal more dragon lore advancement than orc one. and yes, there is tons of blood elf stuff because you know, they were introduced exactly like the draenei (sans the giga retcon).
sons of lothar stuff isnt advacement, otherwise even knowing the fate of shendralar is nelf lore, or every other nelf ruin full of banshees and ghosts.
i mean, sure, wow can focus only i few races every time, but damn, even if nelf arent to a human level at least they arent at gnome/tauren/ pre bfa troll level , they have even the most expansed setting of everyone that is still developed basically in every expansion (with entire zones/raid based on them)

Oh but I do consider knowing the fate of the Shen'dralar as advancement. We saw humans and dwarves in Hellfire, TErrokkar and Shadowmoon, complete with stories they were the main focus of that zone. that is advancement of the race, just like I consider the unplayable night elven groups and horde night elf subr race Nightborne as night elf lore advancement.

But yes, it's not gnome/tauren levels of neglect, saying that though, I noticed gnomes did get a new city, whiles the night elf core race doesn't have access to theirs cos their sub-race is on the horde. Tuaren also did get lore advancement in WotLk with the Taunka, then again in Cata like every race, and also the yaungol played a role in many zones there, and again we see them in Legion with the Highmountain, the gaps have not been as few and far between with them. The quantity wasn't that great though.

Also pre-bfa troll had a lot of smaller focuses. Trolls in Zul'gurub, trolls in Zul'aman (TBC), trolls in Zul'drak (WotLK), trolls again in Zul'Gurub (cata in addition to the echo isles revamp), trolls played a huge roll In MoP, and finally took a break for WoD and Legion, before treutning with the biggest bang ever in BFA

considering that zul aman bosses literally morphs in fully form, gonk never started druidism in cata, he appeared to darkspears and told them to stop "priesting" one loa at a time (but considering nelf never worshipped others than cenarius/malorne its strange). in bfa he says that long ago he decreed to the rastari that thing, so zandalari druids exists for who know much time.
i mean, we agree, balance is the main problem for the lore, but the rest is simply shorten up as loa/wild god priest=druid

I don't think the NElves worshipped anyone but Elune, they revered the demi-gods, and druids of some of them are revealed in lore. But explain about gonk.. it was Gonk who set Zentabra on the path to druidsm, teaching her some basics then packing her off to go find the night elves.. or something like that. The same Gonk is the one who then we find in BFA has taught his priests to become druids. He's had 10k years of Cenarius and Malfurion, and he is a wild god, so he could start an order of druids too.

[Minikin]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

This is the price of the current setup.

the horde loses its leadership
alliance loses its factions

just how it be.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Blizzard is too incompetent / unwilling to write a TRUE faction conflict. Instead you just get the blue Alliance and the red Alliance.

it is not possible because both sides have people paying. its impossible to utterly decimate one side because you cant log in one day and the game says "sorry XlegolasX, sylvanas blew up teldrassil, no more night elves". Which is why faction conflict just causes more problems than help.

- - - Updated - - -

Why? Because it's easier to write. Maintaining counterpart organisations means distinguishing them, like the Explorer's League and Reliquary and building two casts of characters instead of just one, with characterization not overlapping. Meanwhile, faction or race-specific story beats have even less return on investment as they require a more specific cast. Blizzard aim to have their cake and eat it too by watering down these groups or creating proxies for them, and then making them neutral. This results in the race that originally had this concept, say the Knights of the Silver Hand, falling out of focus in favor of a group like the Argent Crusade, which is more racially inclusive, more bland and has a figleaf explanation for including other races.

But fundamentally, its themes are unchanged - knightly fantasy, reclaiming Lordaeron as it used to be, stemming from the ashes of the Second War-era Alliance, maintaining a chivalric code and following the Light are all things that are much more key'd to one specific faction than another. Putting an orc in a knight outfit doesn't make it an orc story. What it does do is dilute that fantasy and limit the amount of stories you can tell - once you put the orc in the paladin outfit and have him talk about the Light you can no longer tell stories based around say, the history of orcish internment, or the culture clash between the two, nor can you really make it about Lordaeron any more, since Lordaeron is tangential at best to what are now most of the component races. What is Lordaeron to the inexplicable yet ever present gnomes, orcs, tauren and night elves in the Argent Crusade? Fuck all. So what you're left with is shallower. Surface-level inclusivity and lesser workload at the expense of depth and expanded story opportunities.

Since the Alliance has more such organisations and have more standard fantasy heroic archetypes that lend themselves towards such storytelling, it's easier to turn their organisations generic to achieve this aim or to make spinoffs. This is to the detriment of both factions - the Alliance lose things that are closely keyed to their fantasies - such as a city of human mages, a union of paladins or the entire druidic element of the Night Elves, resulting in ridiculous and incoherent things like the Cenarion Circle doing nothing while the Horde is torching forests. In turn, the Horde, by being included in these organisations on a purely surface level while following the Alliance's cast do not get to enjoy their own themes and stories, but instead are forced to play with the bargain bin version of Alliance stories based around characters they neither have existing investment in nor matter to them. And the more you do it, the easier it is to do it, which in turn perpetuates the problem. Every neutral organisation that either is or is based on a faction/race inclusive thing makes the original thing it was spun out from either irrelevant or leagues more bland while denying the other group the screentime and its relevant storylines. That's how we ended up with the Forsaken and blood elves' role regarding Arthas being taken over by the Ebon Blade, which are a more inclusive but far less defined version of both in terms of grievances, the Argent Crusade sitting on their asses while the Forsaken were expanding or the orcs having no role to speak of in the expansion about their biggest bad in favor of following historically Alliance characters in a historically Alliance city within organisations that were either historically or thematically Alliance.

this is so perfectly written i dont think anything else even needs to be said in the thread anymore.

[allawyn]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

Because Blizzard let players join groups based on the Alliance story rather than writting Horde ones. I mean, if it isn't faction conflict and the villian bat, who even remembers the Horde exists./