New interview with Steve Danuser about BfA

[Beerbill Society]

The Lore is the main reason i left retail, it felt like the writters were so lost in their on plot that it bothered me deeply, this intervew just shows me they are lost and in denial. Also personally i dont like Danuser so meh.

[Minikin]

I agree, he sucks, too. But he doesn't force everyone into his way of seeing the world.

Dude...he gave a speech to the horde in the horde capital approximately 30 feet from where warchiefs used to sit, about honor at the conclusion of a genocidal war. I'm not saying the horde isn't to be held responsible for its actions but you have to admit that his simple presence there, the speech and someone not casting a spell or attacking him skews the bias.

[Mehrunes]

Dude...he gave a speech to the horde in the horde capital approximately 30 feet from where warchiefs used to sit, about honor at the conclusion of a genocidal war. I'm not saying the horde isn't to be held responsible for its actions but you have to admit that his simple presence there, the speech and someone not casting a spell or attacking him skews the bias.

He was a honored guest of his sycophants within the Horde though. So technically still not a case of him forcing his worldview (though it could be a case of him infecting everyone around him with his holybonitis so that they would align with his world view instead, which would arguably be worse than achieving that result through force).

[Verdugo]

He was a honored guest of his sycophants within the Horde though. So technically still not a case of him forcing his worldview (though it could be a case of him infecting everyone around him with his holybonitis so that they would align with his world view instead, which would arguably be worse than achieving that result through force).

There is something seriously creepy about Anduin and his uncanny ability to subvert almost everyone around him to his worldview. Its like he had the P.O.V gun from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Thage]

Garrosh was still the better villain btw. Unlike Sylvanas, his motivations and thought process actually made sense, even if they were not particularly complex.

This is a good point and a sadly-damning one, at that. Even at his absolute worst in MoP's climax, Garrosh only wanted two things: prosperity for His Horde, and glory for himself. Garrosh is a character study in how a weak moral core could be made worse by buying into Thrall's propaganda (for all his good intentions, whitewashing the Old Horde like he did during his tenure as Warchief ultimately served to raise a generation of orcs on propaganda about the glorious conquests of the Old Horde with few dissenting voices pointing out the genocides and being enslaved to demons, propaganda he went all-in on spreading to the Mag'har), having power thrust upon him when he did nothing to earn it (Thrall gave Garrosh the reins in Northrend out of pure nepotism and it was a near-disaster on multiple fronts because of Garrosh's inexperience and that of those commanders who followed his example, as well as rampant incompetence which was later retconned out in novels), and having even more thrust upon him and leaving him to pick up the pieces of Thrall's abrupt departure and the fallout of the Shattering. This resulted in an unprepared Warchief who alienated his allies because he felt the 'orcish way' (read: be as loud and aggressive as possible at diplomatic meetings to assert yourself) was the only way to go about business, and ended up surrounding himself with manipulative yes-men like Malkorok, who steered him further down a dark path. With nobody around to point out when he was being excessive until it was too late, Garrosh's good intentions were corrupted and he went mad with unchecked power as he broke under responsibilities he wasn't ready for.

Compare to Sylvanas, who... has some plan, and everything that happens to her for good or ill advances that plan. Whose motives are 'kill everyone because edgy teenager monologue bullshit.' Who needed a decade and a half of decisions and behaviors retconned in order to make her sudden left turn from Evil Mastermind into Omnicidal Maniac make any sense. Who needed the plot and cast to bend and twist around her in order for her to accomplish anywhere near as much as she did, merrily sprinting past the Horde's breaking point under Garrosh until the Alliance had to practically scream "Why are you still putting up with this shit?" via Anduin's chats with Saurfang for anything to be done about it. Her thought processes and motives seem to shift patch by patch, with the only constant being "Herpderp hope is stupid ur all sheeple r/whoisjohngalt #nietzsche."

It's two takes on the same villain archetype--the leader who falls from grace--but one is, in retrospect, a fairly well-done look at how unchecked power in the wrong hands can break a man and bring about an authoritarian reign of terror as he's manipulated by everyone around him, and the other is a generic comic book villain-protagonist from the 1990s who would fit right in with Darkchylde and other Hall of Shame nominees we all pretend never happened.

- - - Updated - - -

She's not speaking to Bolvar in the Shadowlands cinematic but to the audience, that's why she turns her head towards the camera. When she says she'll set everyone free she means that she'll release them from the writing staff by crashing this storyline with no survivors.

Thought.

What if Sylvanas is a reincarnation of Old Man Henderson, and this is her attempt to rescue Azeroth from the shitty metaplot by ruining it as thoroughly as possible?

If that turns out to be the case. IF. I'll shake the writing team's collective hand and congratulate them for finding their spines rather than continuing to allow a bunch of incompetent mediocrities to continue suplexing the plot into the depths of hell.

[Varodoc]

I mean, when the writers literally have to tell the players over and over again "just wait for the full story, this woman has a plan, you'll see", then it's obvious they are not doing a good job. If the villain were written like they genuinely had a mysterious plan or identity, the writer wouldn't need to restate that. Instead they tried to make Sylvanas look so mysterious, when people predicted she was Lich King 2.0 way before the "ground-breaking reveal of the Shadowlands cinematic trailer".

It was already pretty obvious at the beginning of BfA what they were doing:

- She states in the comic that she wants everyone to serve her, to serve Death;
- In BtS she says she considers Undeath a blessing and wants to "bestow it" on the people of Stormwind;
- In Legion she made a deal with a goddess of Death;
- In Cataclysm it was already established that plenty of people are worrying about her rising similarities with the Lich King;
- She literally went to Hell BEFORE the expansions in which she started nuking places left and right.

They weren't fooling anyone. They should've been straightforward and said she was a villain we would have to beat, like they did with Garrosh. With him they were straightforward, in 5.2 they said "look, this guy is crazy, prepare to dethrone him", they didn't come up with some BS excuse like "but wait, he is a man with a plan, all will be revealed in time."

[Mehrunes]

This is a good point and a sadly-damning one, at that. Even at his absolute worst in MoP's climax, Garrosh only wanted two things: prosperity for His Horde, and glory for himself.

Garrosh wanted to kill everyone and everything that wouldn't submit to his new world order since Tides of War.

Thought.

What if Sylvanas is a reincarnation of Old Man Henderson, and this is her attempt to rescue Azeroth from the shitty metaplot by ruining it as thoroughly as possible?

Well, yeah. She's bringing the End Times to Warcraft so that there's nothing more for Blizzard to ruin there (except maybe rats).

[Orby]

Except we have the lead dev saying she was

Well thats where the nuances come in I guess :P

[allawyn]

[We have heard this meme before, I'm going to say this _once_.]
The Hero bat for the Horde? Absurd. While Jaina skips away from ethnic cleansing and attempted mass murder, our "heroes" have been saying how everything is their fault and calling the Horde evil. We get to watch our own leaders commit terrible atrocities and end up being pawns of the Alliance leader to bring down our own side. And for that we get be ignored in neutral patches, except maybe when our own quest gives make anti-horde rants.

I'm willing to believe that things haven't been great for the Alliance, but I have to say that all those Alliance players telling us that the trash Blizzard gives us is gold, telling us how great we like it, and demanding that Blizzard make things better for the Alliance by giving us more trash? They are more annoying than you can believe. I mean, those posts really come off as feeling entitled and tunnel vision on only what _they_ deserve.

But if you really believe the Horde had it so good. You should all be raising the call to Blizzard to give you villian bat. You want to see Jaina be turned into a racist monster and commit atrocities while Varian admits that the Alliance racist demands that everything be seen from only their perspective is the root cause of problems. As players you get to along with this, until the Horde leader releases some minor Alliance character from jail and we watch them go off an do what the Horde has sent them to do. Meanwhile, the Horde character you hate the most gets turned into hero you have to work with. And yes, you get _all_ of that, anything less if not the villian bat. Then you get to move on to Horde lore characters saving the world from old gods or whatever villian du jour while you tag along.

Nothing else would show you really mean it and you just aren't trying to spin things.

No, other way round, they pay a lot of attention to the horde,t hat is why you get the villain bat, but you also get the hero bat.

Every time the horde goes down the villain path, it's the horde that rescues and saves teh horde and are teh bigger heroes. Alliance are just secondary support characters.


Your blizzard likes the hordde a lot, and tries to make it interesting, however, it doesn't seem tehy are doing the sort of story people enjoy. People are humans, teh sort of thing that will most appeal to them would fit the alliance, however, it doesn't mean the horde cannot be popular for what it is.

They 've just been terribly inconsistent, and failed to properly weave the mixed races into anything cohesive. This is partl ybecaue the horde just doesn't fit as one massive united empire. It just doesn't. You can't put blood elves and frosaken, nightborne and Pandas into that and expect it to make sense.

No the horde works better as being led by a bunch of warlords from each race, that need to come together only when there is trouble, similar to how the orc calns worked.

The misfit horde of classic doesn't exist anymore. Because they are not protrayed that way in game, the oppressed minority, valiantly standing up for their right to existence. I twas toyed with in Calssic, but ditched to go for the attractive powerful horde, with mighty warriors, and drop dead gorgeous elf barbie babes. And stories that were full of character heroes on steroids, just pumping fanfic levels of rubbish.

The horde turend from needing to fight for every inch against powerful alliance adversaries like night elves or the vastly populated humans into this power hog machine taht can smash and bulldoze anything in its path without much effort.

in thier over enthusiasm for the horde , they both made it unremarkable and consequently made the alliance irrelevant.


Alliance fans hate it because their faction is moulded into the horde with the high king nonsense, then never does anything meaningful or impactful when compared to the other faction hogging the spotlight constantly. On close observation they notice their faction is support for the horde's drama or whipping boys for their rock hard jerk off.

Horde notices that their horde is convoluted and always changing, too much is happening and the plots and twists are un-necessarily complicated. Getting the story spotlight but that actual story just somehow not managing to be enjoyed by people.


What is the reason for the poor faction portrayal? Bias. They stopped trying to write a great story, and instead to push their faction and character faves. Sure alliance race'd characters tend to show up a lot, notice it is NEVER for the alliance, and the horde have access to them like best buddies - (not complaining, But faction matters are always the horde, and they tend to dominate the story), notice it is never the alliance leading the charge against world threats, no, just individual characters that are of alliance race, not acting in faction motivations (which is fine, not complaining either, factions should play far less of a role, and races far more, with characters being the focal points)

Well, that has been the case since classic. but never this blatant.

[Feanoro]

[We have heard this meme before, I'm going to say this _once_.]

And it was absurd blaming people who in no way write the story, trying to insist Alliance was telling you how to feel, and other nonsense the last time you said it. Bonus points, you completely refused to even consider what Alliance players had to say in favor of your imaginary version of them. Probably wasting my keystrokes here, but the point is that Horde gets a story. Alliance gets to be humiliated NPCs. The story is crap, no argument there, but at least some effort is being made for the Horde.

Nothing else would show you really mean it and you just aren't trying to spin things.

So again, everything must be on your terms and you won't consider any other viewpoints.

[Syegfryed]

but the point is that Horde gets a story. Alliance gets to be humiliated NPCs. The story is crap, no argument there, but at least some effort is being made for the Horde.
.

are you even for real, being made the villains again, get another dumb rebellion again, get another evil sociopath leader again, get their characters dead again ,this the "effort being made?" just copy-paste mop story?

and had the alliance king teach and preach for us in our very city, this is more humiliation than the Alliance could ever get lol

oh man, alliance players rly don't know how fucking luck they are, i bet you don't want this effort, but of course you have to complain like we like it or want it.

[deenman]

Their delivery was shit...but I saw that coming from season 2. The entire story arc and message is all good, but yeah...delivery was atrocious.

actualy in the tv show we DONT see it coming at all,the tv show misses many of the points from the books,im sure the book ending will be the same on all of the keypoints,but how they get there will make a lot more sense

[Logwyn]

Not even comparable. GoT had the biggest character assassination in history (Daenerys). Nothing in Warcraft comes close to that.

Well... maybe Kael, who could've been a very good tragic villain... but they're bringing him back in Shadowlands anyway.

If Daenerys burning lannisters had happened two or four episodes after the Red Wedding everyone would have been all "BURN THOSE BASTARDS!!!! BURN THEM ALL!!!"""

[Feanoro]

are you even for real, being made the villains again, get another dumb rebellion again, get another evil sociopath leader again, get their characters dead again ,this the "effort being made?" just copy-paste mop story?

and had the alliance king teach and preach for us in our very city, this is more humiliation than the Alliance could ever get lol

oh man, alliance players rly don't know how fucking luck they are, i bet you don't want this effort, but of course you have to complain like we like it or want it.

Let's see.

Big guns first:
- We have Anduin as Blue Warchief. Good luck topping that. Non-stop bleating about how if we just find the right flowers to give them, they'll stop murdering us.
- Bait and switch Jaina. Finally someone is going to give the Horde what they've been asking for! Haha, fuck you, she's whining about peace before the halfway mark.
- The same message we've heard since WC3, if you fight back or even defend yourself, you're no better than the Horde. Lay down and die, it's the only way.

More BfA specific:
- City burned, core race canonically nearly extinct.
- Stormwind set on fire by a couple of prisoners escaping under SI:7 and everyone's noses.
- Half assed Night Warrior, built up as lethal buff by Warcraft's only deity, only mildly inconveniences a zombie with a bow, and that much is only after player outcry.
- Murdered Night Elves immediately jump up and can't wait to murder family and friends.
- No reason whatsoever to go after G'huun.
- Alliance is winning! As TOLD, never shown, in a Horde only scene. Meanwhile, we're told we're calling up farmers to die.
- Worlds more effort put into Talanji and Zandalar, multiple questlines with absolutely no Alliance equivalent.
- Somehow attacking Zandalari instead of the Horde is a great idea for High King Dipshit II, and everyone mindlessly follows because we're NPCs.
- Alliance has an advantage! Haha, fuck you, your fleet is destroyed. The Horde is mildly delayed. Waifucaller carries out the plan completely unhindered.
- High King Dipshit II lectures us on forgiveness, can't wait to honor the Horde butcher who led the campaign. No memorial, not even one damned word for all the lives lost when HIS ALLIES burned to death.
- Even better, HKD2 calls anyone who doesn't have Horde amnesia consumed by vengeance and irrational.
- Time to end this war, thank God we have some Horde to hold our hands and help us win. Again.

Oh, and yes, those fancy CGI cinematics took effort and money so we could watch a Horde story, in which they slaughtered us yet again and walked away with ZERO consequences yet again.

[Syegfryed]

Let's see.

Big guns first:
- We have Anduin as Blue Warchief. Good luck topping that. Non-stop bleating about how if we just find the right flowers to give them, they'll stop murdering us.

whats wrong with that? alliance always wanted something to match the warchief and everyone seems to love Anduin lawful good persona

- Bait and switch Jaina. Finally someone is going to give the Horde what they've been asking for! Haha, fuck you, she's whining about peace before the halfway mark.

She was always like that, a pacifist anyway, thats called character consistency, or you want her descend into vengeance and be hit with villain bat like the horde do? at least in this way she is safe

- The same message we've heard since WC3, if you fight back or even defend yourself, you're no better than the Horde. Lay down and die, it's the only way.

Except they didn't lay down and died, they fought and barely won the war again

ITs what "HEROES" do, they don't exterminate and fight for vengece, the alliance and alliance players can't live without that, they would be crying an ocean that its not the alliance way

- City burned, core race canonically nearly extinct.

Same with undeads, at least your core race have all the leaders still and places to live, unlike undeads who have nothing, no leaders and living in the streets of orgrimmar

you can tell me elves are also living in stormwind but they have hyjal, feralas and even broken shore to go if they wish, there is no other major undead assement despite one shit in northrend.

- Stormwind set on fire by a couple of prisoners escaping under SI:7 and everyone's noses.

oh waow, a burning that matters little, just to distract Jaina what a big deal.

And mind you, the burning was only a thing because they had to use against the over powered Jaina, who, could defeat Rokhan, the Shadow hunter, the Prophet Zul, Priestss Talanje, Nathanos, the players and the fucking Thalyrssa who should be stronger or even with Jaina.

They could just cast some spell to make her distracted and run, but no, they coul not deal with her, hence the burning, who again, is not a big deal, no damages. but hey, better to get your city siege and sacked

- Half assed Night Warrior, built up as lethal buff by Warcraft's only deity, only mildly inconveniences a zombie with a bow, and that much is only after player outcry.

At least you had something

And again, just because blizzard is licking Nathanos and sylvanas balls don't mean the horde like or want it, focus on then is exactly the opposite of horde focus or horde story.

- Murdered Night Elves immediately jump up and can't wait to murder family and friends.

its like this with undead anyway, mind controla and all

- No reason whatsoever to go after G'huun.

Blame Danouser, this is not Horde focus anyway

- Alliance is winning! As TOLD, never shown, in a Horde only scene. Meanwhile, we're told we're calling up farmers to die.

at least you were winning, not losing

And Anduin said after the soldiers he send, he didn't send the farmers at that time

- Worlds more effort put into Talanji and Zandalar, multiple questlines with absolutely no Alliance equivalent.

Pretty sure Jaina has a questline for her as well

- Somehow attacking Zandalari instead of the Horde is a great idea for High King Dipshit II, and everyone mindlessly follows because we're NPCs.

this is not Horde focus or bias, you will find those shit moves in all questlines, its an Expansion problem, not alliance only problem

- Alliance has an advantage! Haha, fuck you, your fleet is destroyed. The Horde is mildly delayed. Waifucaller carries out the plan completely unhindered.

Their fleet was not entirely destroyed, just some ships, as far i know, and kul'tiras fleet was intact, the horde in other dhand, destroyed their own ships
with a brilliant strategy

- High King Dipshit II lectures us on forgiveness, can't wait to honor the Horde butcher who led the campaign. No memorial, not even one damned word for all the lives lost when HIS ALLIES burned to death.

Again, the story problem, not alliance problem they never focus in one more thing at time

- Even better, HKD2 calls anyone who doesn't have Horde amnesia consumed by vengeance and irrational.

just Tyrande, who was consumed by vengence, wait for her horde focus soon with the villain bat

- Time to end this war, thank God we have some Horde to hold our hands and help us win. Again.

not like the rebellion is from any help, most no one came, but hey, horde attacking horde again

Oh, and yes, those fancy CGI cinematics took effort and money so we could watch a Horde story, in which they slaughtered us yet again and walked away with ZERO consequences yet again.

watch a shit horde story, exactly what everyone wanted

i ask you, what if the stories were swapped? would do you want that? cause no matter how alliance say they are screwed and how good and how better horde story story is, and how much focus they get i see no one eager to swap stories

i would gladly swap roles here in bfa, in fact, i hope shadowlands have no horde at all, so the alliance can get all the focus they want

witch is probably true, since the night fae will be tyrande story of redemption and she will not get villain bat(unlike a horde character would be) and the blue people will be heavy alliance

the evil covenants is for horde probably.

[allawyn]

And it was absurd blaming people who in no way write the story, trying to insist Alliance was telling you how to feel, and other nonsense the last time you said it. Bonus points, you completely refused to even consider what Alliance players had to say in favor of your imaginary version of them. Probably wasting my keystrokes here, but the point is that Horde gets a story. Alliance gets to be humiliated NPCs. The story is crap, no argument there, but at least some effort is being made for the Horde.

So again, everything must be on your terms and you won't consider any other viewpoints.

Lets be clear, I'm referring to the posts (not even the players, the posts) were we get the meme that the Horde was favored by Blizzard while the Alliance had it worse and that Blizzard owes it to give to Alliance players at the expense of Horde players. That argument is, IMO, utter trash.

I said in my previous post, and I'll say here, that I have some sympathy that Alliance players didn't like what they got either. I've read some good posts form Alliance players who recognize things that have sucked for both sides. (Tough, sadly, more on the official forums than here). But apparently, since I don't agree with the above meme, i must hate all Alliance players.

Pushing a meme that often ends up, "give us more by giving those guys less" by minimizing how what Horde players went through isn't going to cut it.

[Varodoc]

If Daenerys burning lannisters had happened two or four episodes after the Red Wedding everyone would have been all "BURN THOSE BASTARDS!!!! BURN THEM ALL!!!"""

People were still saying that in The Bells. The problem is when she started burning children.

[Syegfryed]

Pushing a meme that often ends up, "give us more by giving those guys less" by minimizing how what Horde players went through isn't going to cut it.

thats basically the alliance rant since i start to play this game

they can't see both factions get screwed, they only see their own belly button, and demand th Horde get fucked more, than what they already are, to make amends, because while getting screwed they are more in the screen.

Like i said, everyone say the meme, but no one want to switch places

[Grazrug]

People were still saying that in The Bells. The problem is when she started burning children.

Still bad writing. No matter how hard you twist it. The show writers are awful. End of story.

[Mehrunes]

And it was absurd blaming people who in no way write the story, trying to insist Alliance was telling you how to feel, and other nonsense the last time you said it. Bonus points, you completely refused to even consider what Alliance players had to say in favor of your imaginary version of them. Probably wasting my keystrokes here, but the point is that Horde gets a story. Alliance gets to be humiliated NPCs. The story is crap, no argument there, but at least some effort is being made for the Horde.

You're just telling @allawyn how comparatively great Horde has it compared to Alliance as an argument to disprove their claim that Alliance players have been telling the Horde players how great they have it. That's... one way to reply to their post, I guess.