Ok, Hazzikostas, listen..

[Kallisto]

Translation: Streamline this game so much so that I can complain in 2 weeks that there's nothing to do. Also remove any difficulty (make LFR braindead) so I can just get my loot.

You're not a good game designer.

The TL : DR of the OP

Bring back WoD and make LFR bosses fall over without even auto attacking.

[Gonfer]

But yeah..I guess "most" people don't "enjoy" raids since forever, because raiding has always been a niche. Yet raids are the big thing in every x-pac and every patch.

Raids are a big thing as they still tell the final story, and as LFR allows many to see that final story. Every organized version of raiding, tho, is a niche gameplay.

And sorry, but LFR gameplay itself is really bad. Gameplay mechanics made for premade groups watered down for matchmade groups. No effort. Just for the simple sake to justify large raids. For the developer idea that raids and dungeons matter most.

The developers raped the game that strongly, that it fits to their agenda. Even that strongly, that gameplay does not matter anymore, just time effort. That pvp is not fair, and that everything else is a grind and dull because the devs want players to play in premade groups, or in rated battlegrounds. They want to lure players into gameplay they prefer, and focus their effort on gameplay they prefer.

Mythic raiding is still not popular. Mythic+ dungeons are still not popular. All the developer efforts have lead to nothing, to force people into their wet dream of gameplay.

[Jinpachi]

.. if you want to keep me as a player:

1.) Make Shadowlands alt friendly
2.) Do not hide Thorgast behind a grind
3.) Make reputations account based
4.) Add a ton of content instead of a a ton of time gates or effort gates
5.) Make LFR bearable, and not a wipe party
6.) Add back PVP vendors instead of bar filling games
7.) Remove Azerite Power / Anima Power / Artefact power / whatever power and do not replace it by a new label
8.) Remove Titanforging / Corruption / <new name for Shadowlands> and do not replace it by a new label
9.) Make pvp fair again
10.) Make my playtime worthwile, give me an ongoing character progression from accessible solo or group content

and

11.) Be less greedy, Ion, listen? LESS greedy. Let me play what i want to play, and do not try to force me into your wet dream of gameplay. I will NEVER join a premade group for raids or dungeons.

But as i know that you, Ion, would rather troll your customers than to listen to their feedback, it is very likely i will not going to play Shadowlands. As i know you and your alikes reactions to feedback already. You know, people asking you to remove Titanforging, and you adding Corruption. Or people telling you they like flying and you removing it. All those little meanies you thought would be funny.

they had all of that at one point, and people still bitched. so either shut up about it already or unsub.

[Thundering]

Go Classic, its more inline with what you want(Not perfectly though offourse)^^


Or quit:P wow retail hasent really been good since wrath.

[Gonfer]

Go Classic, its more inline with what you want(Not perfectly though offourse)^^


Or quit:P wow retail hasent really been good since wrath.

Right, and that does not really change, no matter if fanboys act like social bots in this thread. And want to pretend the majority dislikes my ideas.

[Thundering]

Right, and that does not really change, no matter if fanboys act like social bots in this thread. And want to pretend the majority dislikes my ideas.

Well that is true, as we all know most players have stoped playing due too bad changes from cata+

That Classic has more active players than retail kinda says alot. But join the club here instead leveling maybe is a bit "longer" but it is more fun also it gave me alot of new friends.

[Gonfer]

I sometimes wonder if Blizzard owns a facility as like the russian government owns in St. Petersburg. A troll factory, where people are hired to add opinions to their favor on public boards like this.

It really would be fun to dive deeper into this. Probably Blizzard even pays trolls way longer than russia does.

In this forum, for example, you find white knights which talk in blizzards favor since 2005 and earlier already, even considering that blizzard changed almost everything during those years, and even changed those things back, yet they defend every decision ever made. Even contrary decisions. In 2006 they added flying. The fanboys were like "Whoo, flying!". Then, in 2014 they decided to remove flying. The fanboys were like "Whoo, removing flying!".

I wonder, if those people are not paid, what actually does make them being such opportunist shills? Are they just 100% fans who believe blizzard never does wrong, even if they make contrary decisions again and again? Blizzard is for flying? They are for flying. Blizzard is against flying. They are against flying. Whatever the great company wants, the shills want it too!

Really, Vladimir Putin would he happy to have propaganda workers like those.

[Gonfer]

Hi, newly created burner account with 100 incredibly polarizing posts in last month.

Hi Vladimir.

[Gonfer]

Hey! This is AMERICA! Those trolls should work for the CIA! The disinformation and warmongering campaign against China has to be done on Twitter by someone ya know

While i believe blizzards hired trolls would likely talk in favor of China. You know, considering how much money blizzard makes with brown nosing their tyrant government.

Really, i wonder if J. Allen Brack could ever wash his head clean, considering how deep the dive was he took into Xi Jinpings ass after the blitzchung debacle.

[Kaver]

/sigh...you are really at this point the master of assuming things without submitting any source or proof. Define "common knowledge" and support this with even the remotest source what "most" people enjoy and don't enjoy.

But yeah..I guess "most" people don't "enjoy" raids since forever, because raiding has always been a niche. Yet raids are the big thing in every x-pac and every patch.

So what now?

I'm sorry that I'm not well prepared. The thing is that I never really thought I would have this discussion because I only met a very few people who actually thinks Warfronts were a good addition to the game. Raiding is in general very popular. Warfronts are not. I don't think I need any proof of that to be honest. Most people know that Warfronts have been a massive failure from the beginning.

Have you been playing WoW much doring BFA?

[Gonfer]

I'm sorry that I'm not well prepared. The thing is that I never really thought I would have this discussion because I only met a very few people who actually thinks Warfronts were a good addition to the game. Raiding is in general very popular. Warfronts are not.

For people like det, everything blizzard adds is a "good addition to the game".

[Gonfer]

As a corporation, their only goal is to make money and appease the shareholders or rather the masses.

I think they could make a lot more money, if they listened to their players a little bit more. And stopped designing the game based on player retention excel tables.

You do not get good games if CFOs become content designers.

You get what blizzard produces currently.

[Chonar]

What the hell is an "effort gate"? Is that the new name people give to hard content they dont wanna do because they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter?

[Gonfer]

What the hell is an "effort gate"? Is that the new name people give to hard content they dont wanna do because they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter?

An effort gate is blizzards newest love child in 8.3. You know, when you have to play daily quests or scenarios first before you even are able to play horrific visions. The even greater part of an effort gate is, that you do not have to play it once (as like attunements), but over and over and over again. I am sure blizzards CFO got an orgsam when he heard about that tremendous idea first.

I am sure they will do more of that in shadowlands. Would not wonder if they add effort gates to dungeons and raids as well.

You want to kill "Gobble the horrible sea turtle" in a raid? Go and farm some dinosaurs first. Well, and collect some bear asses.

[Gonfer]

Based on their math, that isn't true in this age.

Well, a game that would be fun probably would not just sell million expac packages, but also could keep players playing. A game that is built on player agency has way more chances to keep players playing. See recent successes in rpg games. In special DOS 2 from Larian. Fully based on player agency, built using kickstarter money.

I think even WoW could do that. If the devs just would forget the numbers and their excel tables, and return to what blizzard once did. Designing games for the players.

It's odd to not get the most profits from all projects but I think WoW is on the wayside at this point. If not, the blizzard now is completely different to the blizzard in the past. That is most likely true but there's nothing we the people can do about it.

I think it is the last, Blizzard is completely different nowadays. They changed from being the innovators on the MMORPG market to be the behemoth that halts every development on the same market nowadays. While they started with being the most accessible MMORPG for their time in the early 2000s, they are now the ones with the least diverse gameplay, focusing on premade group play, still hoping people will play on their agenda, while people leave them always short after a new expac was launched, as the gameplay does not fit to what players want.

[MrLachyG]

And since we are at gut feeling: Maybe most ppl do find WQs as a whole engaging, but not all of them. For example, I hate Caligraphy, but like the shell matching game. I like WQs where I kill a named mob but hate the ones where there are kill 8 of this and 10 of that". I am ok with closing 5 fissues with the HoA but hate absorbing Azerite.

yeah I actively avoid those same ones. turtle ones I only actively do the Make Loh Go and Shell Game and basically ignore any other world quest that isn't a "drop down and kill x" quest

[Dundebuns]

That's not how rep works if it was account wide.

Account wide rep means that everyone on the account has access to the same rewards. Your main has revered? All toons can access revered rewards. But your Alts won't be revered. They have their own rep. They may be on honoured. So people with an army of Alts do not have a rep advantage because rep is not cumulative.

Of course Blizzard may be all "you have one rep bar for your account and all toons contributes to it" like they did with honor.

Ah I see. That would also work! Probably keep certain cosmetics locked but anything functional should be available to all.

[Gonfer]

Ah I see. That would also work! Probably keep certain cosmetics locked but anything functional should be available to all.

Why not just unlock all rewards from factions for the account? I do not get it. Why should people want to refarm reputations with alts, if they did all those chores on one char for weeks already?

That is part of the greediness i talked about. Really, it is is enough to farm your ass off with ONE char just to get reputation rewards.

Keep it smart. Keep it simple. Share reputation rewards on the account. To give alts a catchup mechanism. And to let them focus on getting gear from content people like to play.

[Raisei]

While i believe blizzards hired trolls would likely talk in favor of China. You know, considering how much money blizzard makes with brown nosing their tyrant government.

Really, i wonder if J. Allen Brack could ever wash his head clean, considering how deep the dive was he took into Xi Jinpings ass after the blitzchung debacle.

Don't worry, the people that complain about every little bit of the game are still massively in the majority in this forum. You won't have to look long to find your views repeated back at you.

One thing I am not yet understanding. You want them to improve LFR gameplay, because it is bad, you want it to be adjusted to matchmade groups.

Okay, how?

Matchmade groups do not communicate, that is their defining feature. Hence they remove every mechanic that requires communication between players. For example the Button pushing on Mechatorque that forced people in Normal and up to tell each other the combinations was changed so that you can see your own code. This trivilized the most fun part of the fight.
So we cannot add mechanics to LFR that requires this.

You cannot expect people that queue as tanks or healers in matchmade groups to know what their role is or perform it decently. Some people do not even queue with their correct spec because they want to abuse faster queues. So you cannot have Tank Swaps and other basic mechanics in them. Healing requirement needs to be low enough that 2-3 people can carry the healing for the entire group, so damage intake has to be very low.

You have to assume that people in LFR are not well geared and usually do not know how to gain the most damage out of their class, so the damage requirement is very low too. There are very few burst checks.

So we already excluded mechanics that need communication, tank swaps, heal checks and dps checks. All of which need to be tuned down to near nothingness for a matchmade group to be able to do them.

These are some of the most essential things, which means that most mechanics in LFR will already be ignorable. The declared goal of Blizzard for LFR in the last few raids was to tune things like that and just leave ONE mechanic in that has to be done. Now you are saying that even that is too much to ask.

I just have no idea how LFR would be if you got to design it. Just a target dummy that you hit and after 3 minutes you get loot (even if you did not kill the dummy, it suicides after 3 min)?

There are actually some things like those in the game. The World Bosses. With a few exceptions they are just loot pinatas in different forms.

- - - Updated - - -

An effort gate is blizzards newest love child in 8.3. You know, when you have to play daily quests or scenarios first before you even are able to play horrific visions. The even greater part of an effort gate is, that you do not have to play it once (as like attunements), but over and over and over again. I am sure blizzards CFO got an orgsam when he heard about that tremendous idea first.

I am sure they will do more of that in shadowlands. Would not wonder if they add effort gates to dungeons and raids as well.

You want to kill "Gobble the horrible sea turtle" in a raid? Go and farm some dinosaurs first. Well, and collect some bear asses.

So basically "effort gate" is you demanding to be handed everything for free without putting in the effort for it? I am baffled by this entitled view. It has always been necessary to prepare for raids and high level content through gear and other things, because most people actually want to perform well and care about performing well.
You basically want all the rewards but not the work for it. That is not how this game or any other game for an audience above 10 year-olds work, this is not how life works. You will definately be better served just watching people play on Youtube. Then you can have them do the work for you.

[Gonfer]

Don't worry, the people that complain about every little bit of the game are still massively in the majority in this forum. You won't have to look long to find your views repeated back at you.

One thing I am not yet understanding. You want them to improve LFR gameplay, because it is bad, you want it to be adjusted to matchmade groups.

Okay, how?

See Warfronts. They worked considerably well with matchmade groups.

Matchmade groups do not communicate, that is their defining feature. Hence they remove every mechanic that requires communication between players.

No, they do not. They keep most premade group based mechanics in, and let the groups either wipe or water the mechanics down to oblivion they do not matter anymore. That is the lazy method the devs do since LFR exists.

For example the Button pushing on Mechatorque that forced people in Normal and up to tell each other the combinations was changed so that you can see your own code. This trivilized the most fun part of the fight.

You should think about the question how choreography should work in a none choreographed group without having a lot of problems.

You cannot expect people that queue as tanks or healers in matchmade groups to know what their role is or perform it decently.

I would remove the prerequisite for having tanks and healers completely. See Warfronts.

You have to assume that people in LFR are not well geared and usually do not know how to gain the most damage out of their class, so the damage requirement is very low too. There are very few burst checks.

There should be no burst checks. It is meant to be a theater mode, where people see the final story plot. Blizzard should focus on that.

These are some of the most essential things, which means that most mechanics in LFR will already be ignorable. The declared goal of Blizzard for LFR in the last few raids was to tune things like that and just leave ONE mechanic in that has to be done. Now you are saying that even that is too much to ask.

Yeah, it is, as it does not adress the intended audience. Noone in LFR wants to wipe. The devs do not understand that.

I just have no idea how LFR would be if you got to design it. Just a target dummy that you hit and after 3 minutes you get loot (even if you did not kill the dummy, it suicides after 3 min)?

You have no imagination. Imagine this: A story NPC would guide the group through the content, tell us details about the lore behind what happens. The story NPC also acts as a game system, a raid leader, which automatically splits players into groups, which have to do a simple task. Which tells them what do do and when to do it. The whole experience is a story arch told and accompanied by a famous NPC, unlike raids, where you need to dance correctly to the voice of a raid leader. Imagine LFR as a game system driven raid instead, which is completey focusing on an epic story told.

Remember Lorewalker Cho? Something like him, just with raidleader powers and actively joining the fight.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically "effort gate" is you demanding to be handed everything for free without putting in the effort for it?

No, an effort gate is the opposite of that. The thing we got in 8.3, where you have to collect bear asses first, before you may do a horrific vision. Over and over. And you seem to like to collect bear asses first, or dont you?

Dungeons and raids, up to now, do not need such kind of effort. You do not need to collect thousands of bear asses just to be allowed to join a dungeon.

Yet you play the effortmonger and act as if that weekly effort was quite normal and already existed in WoW. and ask me how i dare not to want to put in effort weekly, as if my comment was a sakrilege.. for just.. being able to play a scenario. No, something like this did not exist before, the weekly grind effort to even play instanced content is quite new. What already existed was one time efforts, as like attunements.

And you seem to like it. As one out of .. a million? In b4 det says he likes it too.

Why cant we just play the horrific vision without the reoccuring grind? You know, as like dungeons? Or raids? Or battlegrounds? Or.. any other instanced content?

So much for player agency.