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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    See Warfronts. They worked considerably well with matchmade groups.
    They are disaster. People only do them for the quest reward and then never again. Not sure where you get the idea that they worked well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    No, they do not. They keep most premade group based mechanics in, and let the groups either wipe or water the mechanics down to oblivion they do not matter anymore. That is the lazy method the devs do since LFR exists.
    So basically you call the Devs lazy for not letting you be more lazy then is already possible in LFR. Mhmkay.
    They are simply not gonna change raids so completely that you can just afk through them, while some NPC does the work for you. It is a GAME you need to DO THINGS to get rewards. Just watch the raids on Twitch or Youtube and stop demanding people to feed your lazyness.

    If you do not want to put in the little effort it takes to complete LFR, then you do not deserve to get the achievments and loot from them, you are not entitled to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    You should think about the question how choreography should work in a none choreographed group without having a lot of problems.
    You are GROSSLY overstating how difficult LFR is. If not for people that are too lazy to put in the minimal effort for the fights then there would not be a single wipe. It is just not the games fault you cannot be arsed to check the adventure guide for 2 minutes and see "Oh I should not be standing in this fire."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    I would remove the prerequisite for having tanks and healers completely. See Warfronts.
    Yeah, one of the most defining game mechanics since vanilla. The holy trinity of MMOs. But yes, there are some games that did that. The biggest being Guild Wars 2, no trinity there. The dungeons are a mess of uncontrolled pulls and non-existant control, they are NOT easier, just a lot more chaotic. But if you want that, play that then and stop demanding this game to change it's core mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    There should be no burst checks. It is meant to be a theater mode, where people see the final story plot. Blizzard should focus on that.
    Actually they did that in Legion. The LFR was ridiculously easy. Called "Tourist Mode" by the community. People hated it and complained. Blizzard stated they would not repeat this anymore. Their philosophy since then is that LFR requires a Minimum of engagement, usually 1 mechanic that has to be done correctly.

    The reason is pretty simple: Most people do want to FEEL like they achieved and earned something even if that something is a low level of difficulty. Most people do not want to recieve gear as free handouts because Blizzard takes pity on them, people want to PLAY THE GAME even at a low level and want to be rewarded for that. People do not want to AFK through a raid fight with it not mattering at all if they were there or not.

    Take a single-player game in comparison. If you cannot beat a boss, does the game take pity on you and have the boss suicide? No, they offer you different difficulty levels, so you can adjust the game to how much effort you want to put in, but you are still required TO PLAY THE GAME. If you cannot be bothered to do it even at the lowest level then you can go on Youtube and watch it be played, but no one would ever demand single-player games to stop have challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    Yeah, it is, as it does not adress the intended audience. Noone in LFR wants to wipe. The devs do not understand that.
    Again that is a self-made problem of the players. LFR is incredibly easy. There would not be any wipes if people would put in the minimum of effort. You speak out for not doing that. You ARE the problem with LFR, the game mode works as intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    You have no imagination. Imagine this: A story NPC would guide the group through the content, tell us details about the lore behind what happens. The story NPC also acts as a game system, a raid leader, which automatically splits players into groups, which have to do a simple task. Which tells them what do do and when to do it. The whole experience is a story arch told and accompanied by a famous NPC, unlike raids, where you need to dance correctly to the voice of a raid leader. Imagine LFR as a game system driven raid instead, which is completey focusing on an epic story told.

    Remember Lorewalker Cho? Something like him, just with raidleader powers and actively joining the fight.
    And on the second run through the raid the people would ask Blizzard to shut the bloody talking Panda up and skip the nonesense. Then halve the group would be left waiting for the first timers that want to see the lore explanations.

    As for a system that tell you what to do and when to do it... uhm... it's called DBM or BigWigs, around for years. Still requires you to actually ACT yourself though, the game is not played for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    No, an effort gate is the opposite of that. The thing we got in 8.3, where you have to collect bear asses first, before you may do a horrific vision. Over and over. And you seem to like to collect bear asses first, or dont you?
    Considering they increased the daily rewards 3 times by now this is just another mark on the "lazy-list". And yes, I do not mind doing the Dailies. Why would I? I like playing the game, I pay to play the game, so I do not mind playing the game. Are you telling me if there was no cost you would just run HV 10 times a day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    Dungeons and raids, up to now, do not need such kind of effort. You do not need to collect thousands of bear asses just to be allowed to join a dungeon.

    Yet you play the effortmonger and act as if that weekly effort was quite normal and already existed in WoW. No, it did not, the weekly grind effort to even play instanced content is quite new. What already existed was one time efforts, as like attunements.
    First of all, I am starting to suspect that you have not even played 8.3. at all. Else you would know that the Raid has nothing to do with the Daily quests. Your cloak level does not mean squat for the Raid, you need to do the quests to get the cloak but beyond that it does not matter at all for the raid or any dungeon.
    So your point is completely mute, there is no weekly effort to do instanced content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    And you seem to like it. As one out of .. a million? In b4 det says he likes it too.
    You really need to stop pretending that your unwillingness put in any effort is the norm that the Devs should cater to. It simply is not. Most people pay to PLAY not to watch the game being played for you.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    enjoying the taste of boot-polish?
    You're aware this is a game, meant to be enjoyed not worked on.
    RPG genre was never like this and you know it. Go and play fortnite or whatever for no investment game.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    First of all, I am starting to suspect that you have not even played 8.3. at all. Else you would know that the Raid has nothing to do with the Daily quests. Your cloak level does not mean squat for the Raid, you need to do the quests to get the cloak but beyond that it does not matter at all for the raid or any dungeon.
    So your point is completely mute, there is no weekly effort to do instanced content.
    There is weekly effort required to do instanced content. To my understanding anyway. I can't do a horrific vision (instanced content) unless I've done all the questing in the two new quests hubs first.

    So I don't know about the term "effort gate", but the way it's being defined here seems to work. I don't want Blizzard to hinder me from going into a dungeon or a raid without doing X number of daily quests first, that give me a brand new currency, that allows me to purchase an item, that allows me to go through a dungeon portal once.

    Yet, we can see that's the direction they appear to be going considering Mage Tower and Horrific Visions. Want to participate in an aspect of the game that might be fun? First you have to do all these activities you don't want to do, over and over again, each time before you can do the fun thing. If you don't, we call you "lazy". Wanting to play a game in a way that is fun for you is now defined as "lazy". We should all strive to work harder at playing our games /shrug.

    So anyway, that's why I quit. I know no one cares but me. I'm just saying the point is valid. I'm not going to play a game to do lots of stuff I don't like in order to do something really quick I do like. Especially when other players mock you and call you lazy for not putting enough effort into a game you are trying to play for fun. I'll just play another game where I like all the things I'm doing in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    RPG genre was never like this and you know it. Go and play fortnite or whatever for no investment game.
    We are. I guess you haven't noticed the subs keep dropping.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    RPG genre was never like this and you know it. Go and play fortnite or whatever for no investment game.
    Preparing (consumables, tactics) for mythic dungeons, heroic/mythic raids or rated PVP is investment.
    Doing well in mythic dungeons, heroic/mythic raids or rated PVP is effort.

    Repeating daily quests for reputation on your alt is neither investment nor effort, you have already done that when you figured out them the first time. It is just a time winning scheme by Blizz to stretch the content.
    But as a silver lining, I have an autistic friend who strangely finds these kind of bio-robot level of activities actually quite relaxing.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    There is weekly effort required to do instanced content. To my understanding anyway. I can't do a horrific vision (instanced content) unless I've done all the questing in the two new quests hubs first.

    So I don't know about the term "effort gate", but the way it's being defined here seems to work. I don't want Blizzard to hinder me from going into a dungeon or a raid without doing X number of daily quests first, that give me a brand new currency, that allows me to purchase an item, that allows me to go through a dungeon portal once.

    Yet, we can see that's the direction they appear to be going considering Mage Tower and Horrific Visions. Want to participate in an aspect of the game that might be fun? First you have to do all these activities you don't want to do, over and over again, each time before you can do the fun thing. If you don't, we call you "lazy". Wanting to play a game in a way that is fun for you is now defined as "lazy". We should all strive to work harder at playing our games /shrug.

    So anyway, that's why I quit. I know no one cares but me. I'm just saying the point is valid. I'm not going to play a game to do lots of stuff I don't like in order to do something really quick I do like. Especially when other players mock you and call you lazy for not putting enough effort into a game you are trying to play for fun. I'll just play another game where I like all the things I'm doing in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We are. I guess you haven't noticed the subs keep dropping.
    what you mentioned is exackly the reason why wow keeps failing all the way since WoD , thhrough whole legion and whole BfA.

    but as long as Ion will be game direction the direction of this game is constant.

    Shadowlands will be exackly the same - and all this visions/essences fiasco is proof that they openly lied during blizzcon about wanting game to be alt friendly .

    my guess it was the last straw then broke camels back . this lie , back then on stage will haunt them throughout shadowlands.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what you mentioned is exackly the reason why wow keeps failing all the way since WoD , thhrough whole legion and whole BfA.
    WoD sold 3.3M up to first day. Legion 3.3M. BfA 3.4M. Yet WoW "keeps falling" last 6 years. I think you live in alternative universe buddy.

  7. #427
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    An effort gate is blizzards newest love child in 8.3. You know, when you have to play daily quests or scenarios first before you even are able to play horrific visions.
    You mean.. like you had to:
    • run normal dungeons, over and over, until you reached honored with reputations, in TBC, just so you could play the heroic versions of the dungeons in that zone?
    • run Botanica and Mechanar, just so you could run Arcatraz?
    • run long attunement quest chains for all raids in TBC?
    • run a long, long and quest to get the legendary cloak in MoP so you could fight a world boss?
    • etc, etc.

    Don't try to pretend WoW never had to make you work to get stuff done before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    WoD sold 3.3M up to first day. Legion 3.3M. BfA 3.4M. Yet WoW "keeps falling" last 6 years. I think you live in alternative universe buddy.
    You forget that they, and only they, have direct access to the real-time count of actual subscription numbers. That's how they can keep claiming that WoW "keeps falling".
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You mean.. like you had to:
    • run normal dungeons, over and over, until you reached honored with reputations, in TBC, just so you could play the heroic versions of the dungeons in that zone?
    • run Botanica and Mechanar, just so you could run Arcatraz?
    • run long attunement quest chains for all raids in TBC?
    • run a long, long and quest to get the legendary cloak in MoP so you could fight a world boss?
    • etc, etc.

    Don't try to pretend WoW never had to make you work to get stuff done before.
    No, an effort gate, like before you go do any of those items on your list, you had to do 5-10 daily quests, before you could enter any dungeon. So before you could run Bot - 5 daily quests, then before you could run Mech, 5 more daily quests. Now that you got Bot and Mech, before can run Arc - 5 more daily quests. Before you could run any of the dungeons for your long attunement quest - 5 quests each.

    That's what we mean by effort gate. Running dungeons is fun. That's why I play the game. Doing chores is not fun. That's not why I play the game. Gating the fun activities behind chores is not my idea of "compelling game play".


    - - This is why running dungeons to earn Rep was always successful in WoW. Then someone at Blizzard had the bright idea of removing rep from dungeons and tyng them specially to quest grinds, and folks stop running dungeons (got no time to run dungeons...too many quests to do on all my alts), then bored of that they stop pursuing the rep all together, then they stop playing, because they didn't like that type of game play and you figured it would be better if they just quit instead of suggesting Blizzard making the game fun for them again.


    I suppose this is how you guys would table top, trying to imagine getting your team together around the table to D&D and the DM says, "you see a man who needs 10 wolf tails, 20 bear teeth, 15 spider guts, as well as killing 50 other random wild animals. He will not give you access to the cave until you do all these chores for him. Now roll for your swing against the first bear. Nice! critical hit, you got him down to 90% health...roll again".

    Now this is Role Playing!!
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2020-03-17 at 03:20 PM.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    Let me play what i want to play, and do not try to force me into your wet dream of gameplay.
    No one is forcing you to play anything. Game designers will do and have been doing this since games were first created. They create the game they believe is best, that's what makes them a dev. You choose if you want to play it. Great devs listen, but it is literally impossible to listen to everyone. Opinions vary too much, so in the end, devs have to make many decisions based on their own logic and creativity. If your likes do not align with the Devs, that's an indication to try a new game, but know you'll likely never find the "perfect" game, much like you'll never find a "perfect" person. Being able to enjoy things without them being "perfect" is a key to a happy life. Ofc avoiding things that are too far from your ideal is also important. Expecting perfection (especially in highly subjective scenarios) though, is the key to being eternally unhappy.
    Last edited by BananaHandsB; 2020-03-17 at 03:11 PM.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    .. if you want to keep me as a player:

    1.) Make Shadowlands alt friendly
    2.) Do not hide Thorgast behind a grind
    3.) Make reputations account based
    4.) Add a ton of content instead of a a ton of time gates or effort gates
    5.) Make LFR bearable, and not a wipe party
    6.) Add back PVP vendors instead of bar filling games
    7.) Remove Azerite Power / Anima Power / Artefact power / whatever power and do not replace it by a new label
    8.) Remove Titanforging / Corruption / <new name for Shadowlands> and do not replace it by a new label
    9.) Make pvp fair again
    10.) Make my playtime worthwile, give me an ongoing character progression from accessible solo or group content

    and

    11.) Be less greedy, Ion, listen? LESS greedy. Let me play what i want to play, and do not try to force me into your wet dream of gameplay. I will NEVER join a premade group for raids or dungeons.

    But as i know that you, Ion, would rather troll your customers than to listen to their feedback, it is very likely i will not going to play Shadowlands. As i know you and your alikes reactions to feedback already. You know, people asking you to remove Titanforging, and you adding Corruption. Or people telling you they like flying and you removing it. All those little meanies you thought would be funny.
    My opinions here -

    1.Yes!
    2.Not much of one at least
    3.No, I don't think so - just don't place REQUIRED items behind rep. Rep should reward fun and flavour
    4.Ehhh
    5. LFR suits its purpose
    6. Yep
    7. Yep
    8. Yep
    9. duh
    10. Why would you *not* want that

  11. #431
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    No, an effort gate, like before you go do any of those items on your list, you had to do 5-10 daily quests, before you could enter any dungeon. So before you could run Bot - 5 daily quests, then before you could run Mech, 5 more daily quests. Now that you got Bot and Mech, before can run Arc - 5 more daily quests. Before you could run any of the dungeons for your long attunement quest - 5 quests each.
    You're intentionally misrepresenting the issue, here. First, because you do not need to do any daily to unlock your cloak. And second, because you clearly don't remember having to do dungeons over and over and over again just so you could do basically the exact same version of those dungeons... only the mobs have more health and deal more damage. That's it. Nothing new. No new mechanic to worry about, save "one and a half" exception.

    And you clearly don't remember the annoyance that was the long quest chain to unlock Karazhan, and actually having to full clear Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine Cavern just so you could do Mt Hyjal, and don't even get me started on the Black Temple attunement.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're intentionally misrepresenting the issue, here. First, because you do not need to do any daily to unlock your cloak. And second, because you clearly don't remember having to do dungeons over and over and over again just so you could do basically the exact same version of those dungeons... only the mobs have more health and deal more damage. That's it. Nothing new. No new mechanic to worry about, save "one and a half" exception.

    And you clearly don't remember the annoyance that was the long quest chain to unlock Karazhan, and actually having to full clear Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine Cavern just so you could do Mt Hyjal, and don't even get me started on the Black Temple attunement.
    I need to spend an time investment of running quests to get a one-time chance at running a horrific vision. What part about that did I misrepresent?

    And they addressed and changed the "long" attunements, so obviously someone thought it was too arduous. That said, I don't mind the long attunement, just make it account wide when I unlock it. Done and done.

    Even with that said, I would rather spam/farm/grind dungeons any day than be forced to kill random world scorpions and wolves and blobs ad nauseam. So this all goes back to people like me telling Blizzard, "here's the types of gameplay & grinds that I don't mind doing over and over again". but then folks like you jump in and slam us telling us to quit the game instead of voicing to Blizzard what parts are fun and not fun.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I need to spend an time investment of running quests to get a one-time chance at running a horrific vision. What part about that did I misrepresent?
    You don't. Big amount comes from assault. You could do quests alongside of it but you might as well grind mobs if you don't like.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You don't. Big amount comes from assault. You could do quests alongside of it but you might as well grind mobs if you don't like.
    The assault is the quest I'm talking about. I don't even have to try to make an analogy to compare it to quests. It's right there in my quest tracker. It's exactly what I'm describing. "Kill a zillion random world mobs". Then I get a chance at a horrific vision. whoops, I failed 'cause I was trying something different. Let me try that again...oh I can't until I kill another zillion random world mobs.

    No thanks Blizz. I'll play another game where they don't give me chores to do before they'll let me play.
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2020-03-17 at 03:58 PM.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Gonfer View Post
    Why not just unlock all rewards from factions for the account? I do not get it. Why should people want to refarm reputations with alts, if they did all those chores on one char for weeks already?

    That is part of the greediness i talked about. Really, it is is enough to farm your ass off with ONE char just to get reputation rewards.

    Keep it smart. Keep it simple. Share reputation rewards on the account. To give alts a catchup mechanism. And to let them focus on getting gear from content people like to play.
    I think because cosmetics are seen as a status symbol and confer no gameplay benefits. I would be happy if I got one rep to exalted and locked an epic belt on all my alts, but had to regrind it to get a fancy blue shimmer effect on my shoulders, for example. I would likely only want that on one character so I would be clever in which characters farmed which rep.
    RETH

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    The assault is the quest I'm talking about. I don't even have to try to make an analogy to compare it to quests. It's right there in my quest tracker. It's exactly what I'm describing. "Kill a zillion random world mobs". Then I get a chance at a horrific vision. whoops, I failed 'cause I was trying something different. Let me try that again...oh I can't until I kill another zillion random world mobs.

    No thanks Blizz. I'll play another game where they don't give me chores to do before they'll let me play.
    Kay, so doing the Assault ONCE PER WEEK is too much effort. Geezus. I am not sure what exactly kept you in WoW before, you should go play a game that has zero content after you finish the main quests, like SWTOR or TSWL, so you can just sit in a Hub and "play the game as you want it", which is not at all.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Kay, so doing the Assault ONCE PER WEEK is too much effort. Geezus. I am not sure what exactly kept you in WoW before, you should go play a game that has zero content after you finish the main quests, like SWTOR or TSWL, so you can just sit in a Hub and "play the game as you want it", which is not at all.
    Basically yes. it's not fun to do, and one chance at the Horrific Vision isn't quite compelling enough to make me put my traveling shoes on to head out and waste time killing a zillion blobs first.

    What kept me in WoW previously was running dungeons for meaningful progress (rep/gear/attunments, etc), raiding with friends, and being able to pick up any of 10 alts on the server that were at max level to pug the final raid tier without having to grind the entire assault every week on all of them first so I could level each of their cloaks.

    So basically with all that gone, there's nothing about killing a zillion things to get one shot at an instance that is compelling enough to keep my sub active.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Basically yes. it's not fun to do, and one chance at the Horrific Vision isn't quite compelling enough to make me put my traveling shoes on to head out and waste time killing a zillion blobs first.

    What kept me in WoW previously was running dungeons for meaningful progress (rep/gear/attunments, etc), raiding with friends, and being able to pick up any of 10 alts on the server that were at max level to pug the final raid tier without having to grind the entire assault every week on all of them first so I could level each of their cloaks.

    So basically with all that gone, there's nothing about killing a zillion things to get one shot at an instance that is compelling enough to keep my sub active.
    forget it my dude , there is way too many fanboys in here , that do not understand the difference between normal rpg grind and mindless boring waste your time grind that may or not give you a reward, and if you try to give any construct criticism , you are called a hater/lazy etc

    i still remember to this day people complaining about azerite armor in BFA beta , and people in here saying things like , "stop being a hater , the game still in beta, blizzard will fix it so shut up" , well look what we have now in the and of the expansion
    Last edited by Miross; 2020-03-17 at 05:38 PM.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Miross View Post
    forget it my dude , there is way too many fanboys in here , that do not understand the difference between normal rpg grind and mindless boring waste your time grind that may or not give you a reward, and if you try to give any construct criticism , you are called a hater/lazy etc

    i still remember to this day people complaining about azerite armor in BFA beta , and people in here saying things like , "stop being a hater , the game still in beta, blizzard will fix it so shut up" , well look what we have now in the and of the expansion
    Yes, because "everything is bad and is always bad and Blizzard never listens and Blizzard sucks and also Blizzard sucks Blizzard sucks HEY GUYS BLIZZARD FUCKING SUCKS" is such a completely original and compelling take.

  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You mean.. like you had to:
    • run normal dungeons, over and over, until you reached honored with reputations, in TBC, just so you could play the heroic versions of the dungeons in that zone?
    • run Botanica and Mechanar, just so you could run Arcatraz?
    • run long attunement quest chains for all raids in TBC?
    • run a long, long and quest to get the legendary cloak in MoP so you could fight a world boss?
    • etc, etc.

    Don't try to pretend WoW never had to make you work to get stuff done before.

    - - - Updated - - -


    You forget that they, and only they, have direct access to the real-time count of actual subscription numbers. That's how they can keep claiming that WoW "keeps falling".
    Playing the content to unlock more content? What do you think this is, an infinitely-repeatable MMO or something?
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