1. #1

    Torghast and Palace of the Dead/Heaven on High

    So, in Shadowlands, Blizzard is introducing a "rogue-like" dungeon crawling tower that they refer to as Torghast, Tower of the Damned. From what we understand, floor layouts and enemy placements will be procedurally generated, with variation coming from different "passives" that you can select at certain floors. Shown passives include things that augment abilities, such as Shaman's Fire Elemental being permanent, or massive increases to secondary stats, etc.
    It sounds as if the new Legendary system will have certain requirements hidden behind Torghast runs, which is acceptable by me.

    The reason why I bring this up, and I'm sure many people have drawn the comparison, is that in WoW's most similar competitor that's actually performing well atm, Final Fantasy XIV, they have a similar concept, implemented in the game, and an additional version of it, that was added in the Stormblood expansion.
    These together are commonly referred to as "Deep Dungeons", and they work on similar principles. In PotD/HoH, you start (per each class) at floor 1, fighting through the floors in groups of 10, which then you can continue from later. The final floor of each set (10,20,30, etc.) contains a single boss. There are limited use party items in these dungeons known as pomanders that you pick up from chests that get added into a shared inventory, which can be used by any. The pomanders can be simple effects (increased damage/defense) or more interesting ones (turn into a manticore/succubus). They can be randomly queued for up until floor 100, after which only premades can go in together. Lastly, there is an "Aetherpool Arms/Armor" system, in which chests sometimes include upgrades to your damage/defense, permanently, while you're inside either Palace or Heaven on High. Your level starts at 1, and you gain levels while you're inside the dungeon, gaining your abilities back as you level (meaning that you'd start with your classes level 1 toolkit. In comparison to WoW, if you just started HoH, you'd have like, Fireball, that's it.).

    Not a lot of progression is hidden behind these dungeons, and most people use them to level, as they're generally pretty quick.
    I have a couple of qualms with the deep dungeons, and these are them:
    • Enemies do not have a lot of health. They're essentially regular open world enemies, and die very quick in a 4 person party setup. This makes certain classes with ramp up, like the Summoner job, really boring to play.
    • It uses a "role agnostic" setup, meaning that when you queue, you can get any combination of roles. You could have 4 DPS, 3 Healers/1 Tank, 2 Tanks/2 DPS, etc. This makes it so they can't tune it around being structured content, which means that it has to be too easy to exist as content. WoW's Horrific Visions try doing something to counteract that, by changing around damage and health values based on the roles of the people you queued with.
    • The floors in these dungeons are littered with traps, that range from inconvenient to absolutely awful, and there's no way to see where they are without using one of the pomander items. Those initiated in PotD runs might just tell me "stick close to the wall", but just because there's counterplay doesn't mean that it's not annoying. The traps can be a FULL MINUTE silence, a drastic damage decrease, prevention of health regen, a ~80% hp bar damage explosion, and so on.

    The reason I bring this up, and go into such large depth on the game mode itself, is because the second they announced Torghast at Blizzcon, a lot of people I know were like "hoo boy, WoW's doing PotD."
    It's very similar.
    The names are even similar.
    My question is, how close do you think these two will be?
    Will WoW's be used mostly for cosmetics, like in FFXIV? Will main game progression be achieved through it, outside of the Legendaries? Will they reward regular gear, like Horrific Visions, or mostly be like Island Expeditions, in giving a useful currency?
    Will they have group progression items like Pomanders?
    And lastly, what do you want to see happen with Torghast?

    TL;DR: WoW is introducing a feature conceptually similar sounding to a competitor's own feature, how do you think they will differ/be the same.
    Last edited by jzhbee; 2020-03-15 at 10:40 PM. Reason: formatting

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzhbee View Post
    TL;DR: WoW is introducing a feature conceptually similar sounding to a competitor's own feature, how do you think they will differ/be the same.
    I think you've profoundly misunderstood what Torghast is "ripping off".

    Torghast is ripping off games like Dead Cells and Slay the Spire. PotD is just a weird disconnected minigame, by the sound of it, with some limited Roguelike elements but mostly just straight progression. Whereas Torghast is going in face-first with much more full-on Roguelike stuff, and actually using your character.

    Note, just for clarity, stuff like your fire elemental being permanent will be just for that run of Torghast. You probably know this, but someone is going to assume otherwise.

    There's no sign with Torghast that you'll be able to "continue" from where you got to, either. I suspect we're looking at something far more Roguelike. You might be able to "save" a run, but I very much doubt you'll be able to get to level X of the tower, and then always start at level X, so that's a big difference if I understand correctly.

    TLDR: Anyone expecting anything close to what you're describing for PotD is going to be in for a big surprise. We're talking something completely different, on a really basic level. The problem is you're assuming that it's "this system but modified", when it's actually "WoW by the way of Dead Cells". If you don't know what Dead Cells is, well, I can explain I guess. No idea if WoW players are current with other games.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-03-15 at 11:27 PM.

  3. #3
    Frankly, i don't think they'll have all that much in common beyond both being the respective dev teams take on Rogue-like elements in an MMORPG.

    I don't expect Torghast to be queuable in the sense of LFD, though like Horrific Visions, it'll probably use the Scenario system as it's technical foundation. Since you can just go in solo, queues aren't necessary.
    It also sounded like it's intended as endgame content, and would likely be tuned around that. From what we've been told about it, it sounds like you'll just go in as-is and then get extra stuff on top, rather than getting de-leveled.

    As for rewards, it was basically described as giving both Anima and Legendary parts, so it'd be something of a cross between Visions and Expeditions.

  4. #4
    so visions 1.0, with mostly zero tanks or healer
    ty

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    There's no sign with Torghast that you'll be able to "continue" from where you got to, either. I suspect we're looking at something far more Roguelike. You might be able to "save" a run, but I very much doubt you'll be able to get to level X of the tower, and then always start at level X, so that's a big difference if I understand correctly.
    Eh, i do think they'll introduce something like that eventually. Sooner or later, the earlier levels simply won't be challenging anymore and just take up time to slog through. It could be something closer to masks where you increase the base difficulty and rewards rather than starting at a higher level, though.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Eh, i do think they'll introduce something like that eventually. Sooner or later, the earlier levels simply won't be challenging anymore and just take up time to slog through. It could be something closer to masks where you increase the base difficulty and rewards rather than starting at a higher level, though.
    Dead Cells uses a system very much like masks - so do numerous other Roguelikes. That's exactly what they'll do.

  7. #7
    Honestly, the trump card Torghast has over FFXIV's offerings, and I say this as a WoW player returning after 3 glorious months in Eorzea, is the one TO five element. The FFXIV stuff could be boned by other-player numptiness, you had no choice to just go at it alone. Sure, I imagine you'll progress slower through torghast as a soloist, but it will be an intentionally supported option. The closest thing FFXIV has to that are their NPC-enabled dungeon group systems. Don't sleep on the popularity of soloability. Trusts (and their beta form, squadrons) were a stroke of genius for FFXIV, torghast being soloable is the same sort of godsend.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I think you've profoundly misunderstood what Torghast is "ripping off".

    Torghast is ripping off games like Dead Cells and Slay the Spire. PotD is just a weird disconnected minigame, by the sound of it, with some limited Roguelike elements but mostly just straight progression. Whereas Torghast is going in face-first with much more full-on Roguelike stuff, and actually using your character.

    Note, just for clarity, stuff like your fire elemental being permanent will be just for that run of Torghast. You probably know this, but someone is going to assume otherwise.

    There's no sign with Torghast that you'll be able to "continue" from where you got to, either. I suspect we're looking at something far more Roguelike. You might be able to "save" a run, but I very much doubt you'll be able to get to level X of the tower, and then always start at level X, so that's a big difference if I understand correctly.

    TLDR: Anyone expecting anything close to what you're describing for PotD is going to be in for a big surprise. We're talking something completely different, on a really basic level. The problem is you're assuming that it's "this system but modified", when it's actually "WoW by the way of Dead Cells". If you don't know what Dead Cells is, well, I can explain I guess. No idea if WoW players are current with other games.
    I understand what the concept of roguelike means (I'm glad you like Dead Cells, though!), but I do think similarities will exist. Is being a roguelike itself original? No. In an MMO, it's a little more hazy. Additionally, I'm wondering if they'll use an alternate advancement of gear/weapon progression, or if it'll be expanded upon in major patches, adding more floors/bosses/etc.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    Honestly, the trump card Torghast has over FFXIV's offerings, and I say this as a WoW player returning after 3 glorious months in Eorzea, is the one TO five element. The FFXIV stuff could be boned by other-player numptiness, you had no choice to just go at it alone. Sure, I imagine you'll progress slower through torghast as a soloist, but it will be an intentionally supported option. The closest thing FFXIV has to that are their NPC-enabled dungeon group systems. Don't sleep on the popularity of soloability. Trusts (and their beta form, squadrons) were a stroke of genius for FFXIV, torghast being soloable is the same sort of godsend.
    I hope you're right. If solo-visions are anything to go by then yes, Torghast could be quite challenging and enjoyable.
    I'm not sold on it yet though as I really did not enjoy Palace of the Dead - in fact anything with random-generated floors tends to be so visually boring. (But Trusts was pretty good as it was in normal dungeons)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzhbee View Post
    I understand what the concept of roguelike means (I'm glad you like Dead Cells, though!), but I do think similarities will exist. Is being a roguelike itself original? No. In an MMO, it's a little more hazy. Additionally, I'm wondering if they'll use an alternate advancement of gear/weapon progression, or if it'll be expanded upon in major patches, adding more floors/bosses/etc.
    I think from Visions and everything said about Torghast so far we can expect something very much like various Roguelikes. Specifically:

    1) Each run is a full reset in terms of how far you've got. You will gain stuff and unlock things for future runs, but you will start over, rather than starting part-way in.

    2) The things you find and choices you make on run will be powerful and have a large influence on how that run goes and how far you get that run.

    3) The randomisation will be significant, and you will not be able to count on finding the specific things you found on previous runs.

    4) There will be a lot of stuff you can skip, but it may be beneficial not to do so. Or it may just waste your time, but you're unlikely to know beforehand.

    5) It will undoubtedly expand over patches. Even if it's a disaster it will simply because of the content pipeline.

    6) As with any Roguelike, a lot of players won't "get it" and will be super-nerd-rage-y that they can't fotm cookiecutter their way through it, and will demand fixed options and the removal of randomisation. Hopefully Blizzard won't listen but the nerd rage will be strong and the endless weeping about randomisation and "fucked runs" and so on will be loud and brainless.

    7) I expect a system similar to masks or other difficulty increasers that most Roguelikes have to control how hard it is and what rewards you get.

    8) As a major system the rewards will certainly not just or largely be cosmetic, they will likely include gradually better and better gear, probably significantly better than WQs. With high difficulty you may be able to earn M+ level gear but I suspect that will be extremely challenging and the gear will have benefits aimed at Torghast rather than other content.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I think from Visions and everything said about Torghast so far we can expect something very much like various Roguelikes. Specifically:

    1) Each run is a full reset in terms of how far you've got. You will gain stuff and unlock things for future runs, but you will start over, rather than starting part-way in.

    2) The things you find and choices you make on run will be powerful and have a large influence on how that run goes and how far you get that run.

    3) The randomisation will be significant, and you will not be able to count on finding the specific things you found on previous runs.

    4) There will be a lot of stuff you can skip, but it may be beneficial not to do so. Or it may just waste your time, but you're unlikely to know beforehand.

    5) It will undoubtedly expand over patches. Even if it's a disaster it will simply because of the content pipeline.

    6) As with any Roguelike, a lot of players won't "get it" and will be super-nerd-rage-y that they can't fotm cookiecutter their way through it, and will demand fixed options and the removal of randomisation. Hopefully Blizzard won't listen but the nerd rage will be strong and the endless weeping about randomisation and "fucked runs" and so on will be loud and brainless.

    7) I expect a system similar to masks or other difficulty increasers that most Roguelikes have to control how hard it is and what rewards you get.

    8) As a major system the rewards will certainly not just or largely be cosmetic, they will likely include gradually better and better gear, probably significantly better than WQs. With high difficulty you may be able to earn M+ level gear but I suspect that will be extremely challenging and the gear will have benefits aimed at Torghast rather than other content.
    In regards to your first point, it strikes me that Withered Army Training from Legion did that. Is that how youre imagining it?

  12. #12
    From the official page where it is cited as an "ever-changing dungeon" that is "endlessly replayable":
    "Torghast is an endlessly replayable, ever-changing dungeon that you can challenge alone or in a group. Your runs will differ each time, but you’ll need to explore cautiously. Death comes at a terrible cost. Defeat enough of Torghast’s unpredictable challenges, and you’ll be rewarded with unique abilities and items to ensure your present survival or bolster your next run. The further you progress, the greater your likelihood of retrieving materials to craft the legendary weapons and armor that will help you restore balance to the Shadowlands. Other secrets lie within the tower… but they’re yet to be revealed."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzhbee View Post
    In regards to your first point, it strikes me that Withered Army Training from Legion did that. Is that how youre imagining it?
    Not really? I'm expecting more of a conventional Rogue like, in that we'll likely unlock the chances for items and buffs and choices and bosses and so on to appear, rather than just unlocking doors and the like. There may well be an element of that - there certainly is in many Rogue likes, but I don't think it'll be particularly similar to WAT.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    From the official page where it is cited as an "ever-changing dungeon" that is "endlessly replayable":
    Yeah and they even gave an example of how it will change, it sounds a bit like a more helpful and slower changing version of how the affixes change on M+. So it will change on some sort of regular basis.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Eh, i do think they'll introduce something like that eventually. Sooner or later, the earlier levels simply won't be challenging anymore and just take up time to slog through. It could be something closer to masks where you increase the base difficulty and rewards rather than starting at a higher level, though.
    Not even eventually. Some sort of checkpoints in individual runs could be a thing from the get go.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Not even eventually. Some sort of checkpoints in individual runs could be a thing from the get go.
    I hope they add some sort of protection for DCs if there is a limit to runs per week. I'd have liked the ability to forsake all rewards for the option to redo a Vision run.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Not even eventually. Some sort of checkpoints in individual runs could be a thing from the get go.
    I suspect if the Tower can take a very long time (and given the lack of a time limit, I suspect it can), like any time over about 45 minutes, they'll have something which equates to "save and exit".

    But what I don't think we'll see is "You got to Tower Level X+3 before you died last time! You can now start on Tower Level X!" where X is the the physical level of the tower. I suspect the it'll be more like "You beat the Tower on Difficulty 1, you can now try on Difficulty 2!" and so on, but where you don't have to, because for some people/classes/specs grinding lower difficulties and unlocking stuff on them may be more effective or just more relaxing/fun than going has hard as you can every time.

    I know people are going to be mad but I strongly suspect it will be time-gated in way that resembles Early Access to a game - i.e. on launch there are only, say three "areas" to the tower, each with 10 levels to them, then at 8.1 they add two more, then 8.2 they add another three and perhaps the final boss, then 8.3 they add a couple more and the REAL final boss who only appears after you beat the "final" boss and so on. This is how a lot of Roguelikes have operated, and it's often quite fun.

    Though any time-gating at all will cause a lot of tears before bedtime from certain people! There will be people who demand EVERY piece of Torghast content be 100% available day 1 and that they can get to and defeat the final-final boss, but I think that's silly business. You want the "final release" of an expansion? Wait until X.3, frankly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I hope they add some sort of protection for DCs if there is a limit to runs per week.
    Really hoping there's no hard limit to that, and instead the weekly Anima cap (and possibly a Legendary components cap) serve that purpose instead.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I know people are going to be mad but I strongly suspect it will be time-gated in way that resembles Early Access to a game - i.e. on launch there are only, say three "areas" to the tower, each with 10 levels to them, then at 8.1 they add two more, then 8.2 they add another three and perhaps the final boss, then 8.3 they add a couple more and the REAL final boss who only appears after you beat the "final" boss and so on. This is how a lot of Roguelikes have operated, and it's often quite fun.
    And then there's the True Final Boss, which can only be accessed on a New Game+ and requires... wait, i think i got distracted somewhere.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And then there's the True Final Boss, which can only be accessed on a New Game+ and requires... wait, i think i got distracted somewhere.
    New game+ will require that you delete your character, level them from 1-60, and then go back through all of Torghast. But they will be wearing a tabard with a big + symbol on it the whole time so there's that.

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