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  1. #101
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunterman View Post
    Just to put it out there, the guys completely right. Ny'alotha doesn't exist in the "real" physical universe. It was destroyed thousands of years ago, along with the Black Empire. The entire Ny'alotha raid is a vision, same as the vision of SW / Org. N'zoth isn't dead, we haven't even fought him yet. When a zone is invaded, and the Black Empire appears everywhere, it is comming from the portal to Ny'alotha, which, is more of a mirror demension, as is the Emerald Dream / Shadowlands. Just like how the old gateways to the Emerald Dream have grass growing from them e.t.c (Dragons of nightmare in Vanilla) It's the same concept.

    Master manipulator for a reason, he want's us to think he's dead. His chance of making his "visions" reality are greater if we think he's dead, No?
    Surely he has enough armies and power to conquer the world by military strength (especially after the devastation of the Fourth War). Why is N'Zoth doing all of this 9000iq manipulation shenanigans involving visions instead of just unleashing his armies on Alliance and Horde? Heck, what's stopping him from opening those portals in the middle of Stormwind and Orgrimmar? Why is he focusing only on Uldum and the Vale? I'd say his chances of making his visions become real would be far greater if he just used his armies to conquer the world.

    That's my problem with this whole "It was just a vision" theory. It doesn't make N'Zoth look smarter, it makes him look more retarded.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-27 at 05:08 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  2. #102
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Surely he has enough armies and power to conquer the world by military strength (especially after the devastation of the Fourth War). Why is N'Zoth doing all of this 9000iq manipulation shenanigans involving visions instead of just unleashing his armies on Alliance and Horde? Heck, what's stopping him from opening those portals in the middle of Stormwind and Orgrimmar? Why is he focusing only on Uldum and the Vale? I'd say his chances of making his visions become real would be far greater if he just used his armies to conquer the world.

    That's my problem with this whole "It was just a vision" theory. It doesn't make N'Zoth look smarter, it makes him look more retarded.
    N'Zoth doesn't have much in the way of standing forces, though. You see in the Nya'lotha raid the majority of his military firepower, and you burn through it with a will on your way to his carapace. N'Zoth's overarching goal is to take over the Forge of Origination and the Titan systems stabilizing Azeroth and use those system to overwrite Azeroth's reality and change it such that it is, and always was, his own Black Empire. That is why his focus is on Uldum and the Vale - they're the locations of the Titan machinery that will make this possible (e.g. the Engine of Nalak'sha which is connected to Mogu'shan Palace in the Vale and the Forge of Origination in Uldum). Stormwind and Orgrimmar would be too defended for his forces to take at the current time, but if he succeeds in taking either Uldum or the Vale he needn't worry - the resulting overwriting event will make it such that both capitols are and were always his, and nearly no one will be left to challenge him.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #103
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    N'Zoth doesn't have much in the way of standing forces, though. You see in the Nya'lotha raid the majority of his military firepower, and you burn through it with a will on your way to his carapace. N'Zoth's overarching goal is to take over the Forge of Origination and the Titan systems stabilizing Azeroth and use those system to overwrite Azeroth's reality and change it such that it is, and always was, his own Black Empire. That is why his focus is on Uldum and the Vale - they're the locations of the Titan machinery that will make this possible (e.g. the Engine of Nalak'sha which is connected to Mogu'shan Palace in the Vale and the Forge of Origination in Uldum). Stormwind and Orgrimmar would be too defended for his forces to take at the current time, but if he succeeds in taking either Uldum or the Vale he needn't worry - the resulting overwriting event will make it such that both capitols are and were always his, and nearly no one will be left to challenge him.
    Well he should still have control of the naga, and in 8.2 we only attacked a fraction of their massive underwater empire. Plus we could see in Cataclysm that he could spare a lot of troops to aid Deathwing in attacking Wyrmrest Temple, so you'd expect his main army to be very big. The fact that his forces don't appear very impressive in Ny'alotha is due to game limitations, the Legion wasn't very impressive either in Antorus.

    I know his targets are not Alliance and Horde for the moment, but what was stopping him from sending the naga to attack Stormwind and Orgrimmar? Or summoning those giant maw things he used in 4.3?
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  4. #104
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Well he should still have control of the naga, and in 8.2 we only attacked a fraction of their massive underwater empire. Plus we could see in Cataclysm that he could spare a lot of troops to aid Deathwing in attacking Wyrmrest Temple, so you'd expect his main army to be very big. The fact that his forces don't appear very impressive in Ny'alotha is due to game limitations, the Legion wasn't very impressive either in Antorus.

    I know his targets are not Alliance and Horde for the moment, but what was stopping him from sending the naga to attack Stormwind and Orgrimmar? Or summoning those giant maw things he used in 4.3?
    Azshara was his control over the Naga, and he took her prisoner following her defeat at the Eternal Palace - and given that he fields no Naga in his assaults it would seem that the Naga aren't interested in following him while Azshara is missing in action. The Legion have the excuse of executing a universal campaign against life itself, basically put they were spread far too thin to stave off a combined assault on their core-world once it became accessible due to Illidan's access to extraordinary relics like the Sargerite Keystone. N'Zoth has been imprisoned for eons and was only recently freed, and his forces are quite large for the little time on which he had to rally them - but not enough to take Azeroth by force of arms alone. Besides, force of arms isn't and has never been the Old Gods tack - they're corrupters, one and all. N'Zoth's goal in this case was perhaps the most grand: to enact what was done to the Emerald Dream to the reality of Azeroth itself. He was almost successful, too; it was only luck that caught his intrusion into largely unmonitored Uldum using the Amathet forces as his proxy.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  5. #105
    N'Zoth pulled off a very elaborate deception that hasn't been revealed yet. I will post the full theory later but the tl;dr version is:

    • At some point in the past, Y'shaarj defeats N'Zoth and consumes a part of him but N'Zoth manages to retain sentience / control over said part
    • Titans come and whoop Y'shaarj's ass. They realize that killing YShaarj just causes his energy to recoalesce as the Sha so they construct Ny'alotha as the fifth "elemental prison" for the Old Gods and bind their essences to it
    • The Titans clean up the wound left by Y'shaarj's removal and lock up the remaining pieces - one of which is a part of N'Zoth that was consumed by Y'Shaarj (N'Zoth 2)
    • Some time later, without Y'Shaarj's dominant influence, N'Zoth 2 regains full control and goes to work on corrupting Azshara
    • N'Zoth 2 also studies extensively how to bridge dimensions - from the Twilight Dragonflight to the Cataclysm and (perhaps) Deathwing and the Netherwing in Outland just before its shattering
    • N'Zoth 2 uses his knowledge to temporarily open Ny'alotha
    • We go in and blast it. N'Zoth 2 gets blasted as well and dies since he is in his "home" plane, much like the elementals. Only it doesn't matter
    • With Ny'alotha destroyed, the original N'Zoth 1's power that was locked away inside is released and he awakens
    • Only we don't know about it yet

    This is why N'Zoth is purple in BfA but yellow in Hearthstone. It's because the N'Zoth we saw in BfA was N'Zoth / Y'Shaarj hybrid and inherited the latter's purple color
    This is why N'Zoth's prison is in a different location in Chronicle (between Zandalar and Kul Tiras) than he is in the game (close to Nazjatar / the Maelstrom)
    There were 2 N'Zoths all along

    This is also why Alleria started to hear an entire chorus of whispers in the epilogue. N'Zoth 1 wasn't the only one who woke up after Ny'alotha was destroyed. All eyes are now open.
    Last edited by Wilfire; 2020-03-27 at 08:50 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    I hate to be super negative, but after BFA’s insane lack of faction-mechanical payoff, I’m pretty much retired from predicting WoW’s intent with story any more. They are clearly not governed by nor beholden to... making sense.

    That said, it’s a bit liberating to be freed from looking too deeply into anything. I hope what happens makes for a good time. If it doesn’t, I have options. I’m as moment to moment with WoW as they are in making it. It’s not necessarily a bad state, but it’s been a rough road to get here.
    Honestly, if you still play this game with any intent on enjoying a well written, coherent storyline, you need a ct scan.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by thunterman View Post
    Just to put it out there, the guys completely right. Ny'alotha doesn't exist in the "real" physical universe. It was destroyed thousands of years ago, along with the Black Empire. The entire Ny'alotha raid is a vision, same as the vision of SW / Org. N'zoth isn't dead, we haven't even fought him yet. When a zone is invaded, and the Black Empire appears everywhere, it is comming from the portal to Ny'alotha, which, is more of a mirror demension, as is the Emerald Dream / Shadowlands. Just like how the old gateways to the Emerald Dream have grass growing from them e.t.c (Dragons of nightmare in Vanilla) It's the same concept.

    Master manipulator for a reason, he want's us to think he's dead. His chance of making his "visions" reality are greater if we think he's dead, No?
    We didnt fought a vision, it was said couple.of times itls like the firelands an actual plane. Hes forces got destroyed by us, big time. The vague visions we had in uldum and such are more like fata morganas. Blizz lore on such places is weird. Ragnaros got killed permantly in hes plane so I imagine N zoth took a pretty big hit from us.. he isnt gonna pop up any time soon.

    Og and sw were visions.

    The naga are in control.of Azshara and she is missing atm.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2020-03-28 at 03:28 PM.

  8. #108
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Azshara was his control over the Naga, and he took her prisoner following her defeat at the Eternal Palace - and given that he fields no Naga in his assaults it would seem that the Naga aren't interested in following him while Azshara is missing in action. The Legion have the excuse of executing a universal campaign against life itself, basically put they were spread far too thin to stave off a combined assault on their core-world once it became accessible due to Illidan's access to extraordinary relics like the Sargerite Keystone. N'Zoth has been imprisoned for eons and was only recently freed, and his forces are quite large for the little time on which he had to rally them - but not enough to take Azeroth by force of arms alone. Besides, force of arms isn't and has never been the Old Gods tack - they're corrupters, one and all. N'Zoth's goal in this case was perhaps the most grand: to enact what was done to the Emerald Dream to the reality of Azeroth itself. He was almost successful, too; it was only luck that caught his intrusion into largely unmonitored Uldum using the Amathet forces as his proxy.
    I was going to concede because you brought up some convincing points, however in the encounter journal of Nyalotha it says, and I quote (because I am reading it now): "Under Nzoth command, the armies of the Black Empire threaten to engulf the world and reshape it according to their master vision."

    So Nzoth definitely has a lot of military strength on his side. Why he is not attacking the Alliance and Horde too with those mighty armies of his… who knows...
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  9. #109
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I was going to concede because you brought up some convincing points, however in the encounter journal of Nyalotha it says, and I quote (because I am reading it now): "Under Nzoth command, the armies of the Black Empire threaten to engulf the world and reshape it according to their master vision."

    So Nzoth definitely has a lot of military strength on his side. Why he is not attacking the Alliance and Horde too with those mighty armies of his… who knows...
    The "reshaping" in question is his attack on the high priority targets of Uldum and the Vale, against which he has deployed the lion's share of his forces. Stormwind and Ogrimmar offer him nothing of note, they're largely secondary targets that won't even need to be attacked if his primary attacks succeed and he takes the Forge of Origination. An argument could also be made that an attack on the Alliance and the Horde could seal the deal on a coalition counter-strike by both of Azeroth's superpowers, especially if the Black Empire forces couldn't succeed on taking both nations out with exceedingly quick speed. To me, it seems like a losing proposition and I think N'Zoth is aware of that.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  10. #110
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The "reshaping" in question is his attack on the high priority targets of Uldum and the Vale, against which he has deployed the lion's share of his forces. Stormwind and Ogrimmar offer him nothing of note, they're largely secondary targets that won't even need to be attacked if his primary attacks succeed and he takes the Forge of Origination. An argument could also be made that an attack on the Alliance and the Horde could seal the deal on a coalition counter-strike by both of Azeroth's superpowers, especially if the Black Empire forces couldn't succeed on taking both nations out with exceedingly quick speed. To me, it seems like a losing proposition and I think N'Zoth is aware of that.
    If he attacked Stormwind and Orgrimmar he would have forced Magni and co. to defend them and allowed him more time to corrupt the titan devices in the Vale and Uldum. Plus I doubt the Alliance and Horde would be able to stop him, when they were devastated by the Fourth War and had no time to prepare. Anduin didn't even know how to prepare for an attack.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Surely he has enough armies and power to conquer the world by military strength (especially after the devastation of the Fourth War). Why is N'Zoth doing all of this 9000iq manipulation shenanigans involving visions instead of just unleashing his armies on Alliance and Horde? Heck, what's stopping him from opening those portals in the middle of Stormwind and Orgrimmar? Why is he focusing only on Uldum and the Vale? I'd say his chances of making his visions become real would be far greater if he just used his armies to conquer the world.

    That's my problem with this whole "It was just a vision" theory. It doesn't make N'Zoth look smarter, it makes him look more retarded.
    N'zoth has always been considered the weakest old god, but the smartest. He doesn't have the capacity to outright win a war, which is why he's instigating wars amongst the inhabitants of Azeroth. As for the reason he's attacking Vale and Uldum specifically, that's explained in the intro - He's trying to cut us off from the titan facilities there.

  12. #112
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunterman View Post
    N'zoth has always been considered the weakest old god, but the smartest. He doesn't have the capacity to outright win a war, which is why he's instigating wars amongst the inhabitants of Azeroth. As for the reason he's attacking Vale and Uldum specifically, that's explained in the intro - He's trying to cut us off from the titan facilities there.
    "Weakest" only referred to his physical strength, not his military strength. In ancient days his armies were fighting both C'Thun's and Yogg-Saron's. Also I know why he's attacking those two zones, but there's no reason why he should be attacking ONLY those two zones, especially when he has such a flexible army that can teleport anywhere, that with Ny'alotha's influence growing stronger and stronger.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-29 at 11:08 AM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    We didnt fought a vision, it was said couple.of times itls like the firelands an actual plane. Hes forces got destroyed by us, big time. The vague visions we had in uldum and such are more like fata morganas. Blizz lore on such places is weird. Ragnaros got killed permantly in hes plane so I imagine N zoth took a pretty big hit from us.. he isnt gonna pop up any time soon.

    Og and sw were visions.

    The naga are in control.of Azshara and she is missing atm.
    N'zoth, the Corrupter - Master of MINIPULATION
    He's "dead" because he wants us to think he is. If you believe that the final old god died in such a lacklustre way then you've been fooled by the amatuer writing that went into this fiasco.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by scelero View Post
    Out of darkness, comes light. So what was here always, before the light.....

    What do we fear looking within ourselves.... the darkness.

    We're proof light can come from darkness. Yet we're constantly trying to kill the very darkness that gave us light.

    There's a balance to be had between the two, for the two to coexist. The reason there is no balance is because the LIGHT is always trying to shift the balance.

    It's always the LIGHT, the ones who think they know better. The ones who forsake the darkness and don't respect it.
    Are you familiar with the Void? Would recommend reading up on it, as well as Old Gods and the origins of the Burning Legion. The cosmology chapters from the Chronicle are good too.

    If you care about the lore that is and aren't just role-playing on the forum, which I think you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunterman View Post
    N'zoth, the Corrupter - Master of MINIPULATION
    He's "dead" because he wants us to think he is. If you believe that the final old god died in such a lacklustre way then you've been fooled by the amatuer writing that went into this fiasco.
    I would hope so, but the way they write it is completely open to either be interpreted as over as well as not over. The writers pick up on weak ends or plot holes and present them as intended big conspiracies.

    While BfA had amazing epic moments and scenes the overall plot is inconsistent and controversial and made me give up on seeking and speculating over sinister grand designs. They just twist and turn the story but it really shows weakness on the whole.
    Last edited by Trumpcat; 2020-03-29 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by thunterman View Post
    N'zoth, the Corrupter - Master of MINIPULATION
    He's "dead" because he wants us to think he is. If you believe that the final old god died in such a lacklustre way then you've been fooled by the amatuer writing that went into this fiasco.
    This is what he (blizz)wants fools like to you to believe and speculate to keep inyerested in a story that was ruined in an expansion called bfa. Now off you go and go speculate with some one else.

    Blizz only made "that" comment in an interview because they know the demand is there for some. They hoped to get done with the story, bit its because of you meddeling kids they give comments like this.. so you can all dream more about your tentacle friend.

    I am more then ready to move away from the dragonball z cameo disaster. I used to be a fan of that whole mystery, but it got flatout destroyed. Hes story is done.. only tot pop up when they need to. But they told us its hes plane, so stop with the whole its a vision nub bs.. some fans are so goddamn annoying

    And please dont try to convince me with your headcanon we already have this one crazy elleria fan who does more then enough for everyone.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-29 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  16. #116
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    If he attacked Stormwind and Orgrimmar he would have forced Magni and co. to defend them and allowed him more time to corrupt the titan devices in the Vale and Uldum. Plus I doubt the Alliance and Horde would be able to stop him, when they were devastated by the Fourth War and had no time to prepare. Anduin didn't even know how to prepare for an attack.
    Maybe, and maybe not. Here we're entering a land of assumptions and speculations about the "what if's" of whether N'Zoth had enacted other plans - I have no idea what Magni might've done had N'Zoth attacked Stormwind or Orgrimmar directly. Would he intercede, would he continue to look for a way to stop N'Zoth at its source, or otherwise find a way to safeguard Azeroth as a whole from the Black Empire's invading reality? Who really knows. It's possible that might well have been a winning strategy for N'Zoth, but it's not the one he chose - he chose the one that was more according to his nature, using trickery and guile to go for the weakest link and thus unravel Azeroth's defense from within, as it were. It almost worked, too.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  17. #117
    I think the fight with N'zoth was just a vision like the ones in Stormwind and Orgimmar. We will see N'zoth again, as well as C'thun, Yog Saron. After that, I think the'll be one more fight with Y'shaarj.

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