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  1. #241
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Can someone here explain what happened in Hungary????

    Because AFAIK they just gave their leader unlimited power for an unlimited time. Essentially dictatorship
    It was ten years in the making, but yes, they are essentially a dictatorship now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Can someone here explain what happened in Hungary????

    Because AFAIK they just gave their leader unlimited power for an unlimited time. Essentially dictatorship
    Orban for a decade has been slowly grabbing more power and being anti-democratic (The true reason EU has been trying to clamp down on him, not Refugee reasons) for the past decade. Corona has basically been his Reichstag fire excuse to finish off what little democracy is left.

  3. #243
    Italy absolutely hates the Netherlands now it seems.
    ''With this attack, we have no choice but to protect our kind by unleashing our almighty weapon upon them. Summoning the Apocalypse'' - Stellaris Apocalypse trailer.

  4. #244
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Since you declare yourself an self proclaimed expert, you are free to explain the bolded part
    Where did I declare myself that? I look at things like the CAP & CFP, or best of all the way the Euro was created (common monetary policy but no common fiscal policy). If the EU was genuinely putting economics before politics, it would not have created the Euro that way, because - as has been seen - it's been a huge issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I don't think this is the case, if Italy were to leave the EU there is a possibility that it would bring down the Euro.
    If sensibly managed I don't think that need be the case. The split between northern & southern Europe WRT fiscal policy and all that is pretty bad for the Euro, so getting the more profligate countries out would probably stabilise the Euro.

    As for Hungary, it'll be interesting to see where it goes once wuflu has cleared up. Orban clearly doesn't give two figs what pro-democracy types think, but there's a big difference between becoming your average tin-pot dictator and going the route of Russia under Putin, for example. As many countries around the world have shown (China & Russia especially), ordinary people can put up with a lot of undemocratic government if it's also a reasonably effective government.
    Still not tired of winning.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    If sensibly managed I don't think that need be the case. The split between northern & southern Europe WRT fiscal policy and all that is pretty bad for the Euro, so getting the more profligate countries out would probably stabilise the Euro.
    That is a different prospect entirely to Italy leaving the EU. Italy's national debt is greater than GDP and is in Euros, if it was to leave it would be faced with repaying this with a devalued currency thus there is a change they will default - although with the Chinese currently doing their best to cause as much division as possible I suppose there is a possibility that they will think a few hundred-billion Euros to bail Italy out is price worth paying - and this is before you get into the complication of Target2 balances and the devastation CV19 will leave behind.

    Unsurprisingly there is a great deal of fear and anger going around at the moment but given the risks to both Italy and the EU there is an incentive for both sides to work this out and I don't think it will happen.

  6. #246
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Italy absolutely hates the Netherlands now it seems.
    Rutte lacks tact and diplomacy, because the Netherlands were not alone in objection to the euro-bond proposal, Germany and Finland also opposed it if i am not mistaken.

    Rutte essentially went and told a nation in distress that they simply should have had their books better in order before this crisis. So there's that.

  7. #247
    I'm not a fan of the EU, and I think in the long run Greece would be better off out of the EU. But I do think it's interesting how the virus is laying bare the false face of the EU. There's no solidarity or help between the members. As soon as the virus started spreading, it became every man for himself.

    The northern countries, like the Netherlands and Germany, don't want to extend any help to the south. The south is growing increasingly angry about the lack of help from the centralized EU government and are wondering what they bothered to sign up for.

    Hell, didn't Germany stop medical supplies from going to Italy to keep them for themselves?

    Hmm, here's what I found on that.

    https://www.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-...3-fe4680ea68b5

    When Italy asked for urgent medical supplies under a special European crisis mechanism no EU country responded. Fearful of its own shortages, Germany initially banned the export of medical masks and other protective gear. 3M, a producer, said the German restrictions had made it impossible to supply the Italian market. Berlin subsequently relaxed the export rules, but then Austria closed its borders to people arriving from Italy unless they could prove they were virus-free.


    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14...aly-china-aid/

    So the problem isn't just us profligate, parasitical southern Europeans, as is often made the case by "we never do wrong" northerners. If the EU can't (or more accurately won't) help members with a fucking pandemic, and solidarity is nonexistent except for northerners working and profiting with each other only then what's the point of the whole Frankenstate?
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  8. #248
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I'm not a fan of the EU, and I think in the long run Greece would be better off out of the EU. But I do think it's interesting how the virus is laying bare the false face of the EU. There's no solidarity or help between the members. As soon as the virus started spreading, it became every man for himself.

    The northern countries, like the Netherlands and Germany, don't want to extend any help to the south. The south is growing increasingly angry about the lack of help from the centralized EU government and are wondering what they bothered to sign up for.

    Hell, didn't Germany stop medical supplies from going to Italy to keep them for themselves?

    Hmm, here's what I found on that.

    https://www.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-...3-fe4680ea68b5

    When Italy asked for urgent medical supplies under a special European crisis mechanism no EU country responded. Fearful of its own shortages, Germany initially banned the export of medical masks and other protective gear. 3M, a producer, said the German restrictions had made it impossible to supply the Italian market. Berlin subsequently relaxed the export rules, but then Austria closed its borders to people arriving from Italy unless they could prove they were virus-free.


    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14...aly-china-aid/

    So the problem isn't just us profligate, parasitical southern Europeans, as is often made the case by "we never do wrong" northerners. If the EU can't (or more accurately won't) help members with a fucking pandemic, and solidarity is nonexistent except for northerners working and profiting with each other only then what's the point of the whole Frankenstate?
    Not just Germany every nation stopped medical supplies from crossing borders amidst the initial panic once the virus entered EU domain.
    So yes it was very much every man for himself, but this would have been the case if the roles were turned. National interests never went away in the EU otherwise we would be much further along. The whole we never do wrong part and profiting from others is something you made up and as someone claiming to be Greek you should know better, because would you like to state how much bail out money that nation actually got, while the crisis they got into was due to cooking the books, large corruption schemes, tax evasions, sold your country out to rich russians...

    So sure be angry about the complete lack of solidarity but not everything is the fault of the "northerns", the sentiment that you echo is why everyone had such a big issue with helping out Greece for the n-th time. Portugal was not forced onto austerity etc.

    Not to say the complete lack of solidarity from some is shocking, but drop the "greece did nothing wrong" bullshit. It's old and it's wrong and will only lead to a mentality that ensures Greece will keep digging themselves in the same hole every time again. You are buying into far-right and left fairy tales.

    Germany is also taking in patients from "southern nations".

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Some countries, especially those like Italy, Spain, Greece, Croatia etc. that depend significantly on tourism are going to be hammered, while others will escape with significantly less damage. If there was any kind of measure of European solidarity the countries better off would help those that will struggle.
    Well, the solution is easy, don't you see? Just look at Greece. If those lazy, parasitical, profligate Untermenschen can't afford to keep their hotels, resorts, and other tourist businesses they need afloat, they can just sell them to foreign interests in Germany, the Netherlands, or Finland for a fraction of what they're worth. Poverty and desperation are great motivators for economic growth (for Germany and Co.).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Not just Germany every nation stopped medical supplies from crossing borders amidst the initial panic once the virus entered EU domain.
    So yes it was very much every man for himself, but this would have been the case if the roles were turned. National interests never went away in the EU otherwise we would be much further along. The whole we never do wrong part and profiting from others is something you made up and as someone claiming to be Greek you should know better, because would you like to state how much bail out money that nation actually got, while the crisis they got into was due to cooking the books, large corruption schemes, tax evasions, sold your country out to rich russians...

    So sure be angry about the complete lack of solidarity but not everything is the fault of the "northerns", the sentiment that you echo is why everyone had such a big issue with helping out Greece for the n-th time. Portugal was not forced onto austerity etc.

    Not to say the complete lack of solidarity from some is shocking, but drop the "greece did nothing wrong" bullshit. It's old and it's wrong and will only lead to a mentality that ensures Greece will keep digging themselves in the same hole every time again. You are buying into far-right and left fairy tales.

    Germany is also taking in patients from "southern nations".
    I'm not lauding Greece, just pointing out that if there's no solidarity then there's no point to the whole EU scheme beyond expanding Germany's export market.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  10. #250
    I was enjoying your text until this came...
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Portugal was not forced onto austerity etc.
    Really, a 78 billion baillout, that forced unemployment to hit 18%, forced privatizations from the IMF... And you wrote that? Really?

  11. #251
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Well, the solution is easy, don't you see? Just look at Greece. If those lazy, parasitical, profligate Untermenschen can't afford to keep their hotels, resorts, and other tourist businesses they need afloat, they can just sell them to foreign interests in Germany, the Netherlands, or Finland for a fraction of what they're worth. Poverty and desperation are great motivators for economic growth (for Germany and Co.).

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not lauding Greece, just pointing out that if there's no solidarity then there's no point to the whole EU scheme beyond expanding Germany's export market.
    Sure, let's start with the Nazi accusations while you're at it. This whole focus you have on Germany tells me enough.

    Why do you even care, you're not even a Greek living in Europe. You're basically a tourist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    I was enjoying your text until this came...


    Really, a 78 billion baillout, that forced unemployment to hit 18%, forced privatizations from the IMF... And you wrote that? Really?
    I was under the impression that the left wing government at least in the early years of the crisis had a different economic plan that got approved. I have to do say i am guilty in not knowing what happened to Portugal after all this.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Sure, let's start with the Nazi accusations while you're at it. This whole focus you have on Germany tells me enough.

    Why do you even care, you're not even a Greek living in Europe. You're basically a tourist.
    If I had a coin for every time some newspaper in the UK, Germany, or any other northern country has used dog-whistle words for southern or eastern Europeans, I'd be a rich man. But you've got folks using terms like that in this thread, so don't @ me for putting it in its proper context.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I was under the impression that the left wing government at least in the early years of the crisis had a different economic plan that got approved. I have to do say i am guilty in not knowing what happened to Portugal after all this.
    We had a right wing coligation (PSD/CDS) from 2011-2016, they managed most of the crisis. One of the things IMF asks is always the privatization of public water distribution systhem, even today i don't have a clue how the portuguese governement managed to keep it as a public service.

    The left wing governement is only in office since 2016 (they won the election again recently), and yes, things got a lot better then.

  14. #254
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    If I had a coin for every time some newspaper in the UK, Germany, or any other northern country has used dog-whistle words for southern or eastern Europeans, I'd be a rich man. But you've got folks using terms like that in this thread, so don't @ me for putting it in its proper context.
    Using Nazi rhetoric is out of proportion. And what do you believe happens in certain press from other nations? For someone claiming the northern half of Europe is claiming to be the one that "does no harm", ironic.

    Or do you wish me to begin comparing the whole of Greece to Golden dawn?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    We had a right wing coligation (PSD/CDS) from 2011-2016, they managed most of the crisis. One of the things IMF asks is always the privatization of public water distribution systhem, even today i don't have a clue how the portuguese governement managed to keep it as a public service.

    The left wing governement is only in office since 2016 (they won the election again recently), and yes, things got a lot better then.
    Than i got my time line wrong, my apologies. My point was that the EU was open to alternative plans if there were in fact plans around to reducing a nations debt. This was in comparison to the Greek scenario where a whole lot of measures being forced on them were due to their own making or to be more correct their political class, who also stood at the cradle of this whole greek financial tragedy.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Using Nazi rhetoric is out of proportion. And what do you believe happens in certain press from other nations? For someone claiming the northern half of Europe is claiming to be the one that "does no harm", ironic.

    Or do you wish me to begin comparing the whole of Greece to Golden dawn?
    Golden Dawn are garbage. They are vile human beings. I have no problem saying that. I wish folks on the other side of this divide could do the same for their hateful counterparts.

    Nazism should have no support in Greece, considering the brutality of the German Nazis during ww2. It's shameful that there are any.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  16. #256
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Golden Dawn are garbage. They are vile human beings. I have no problem saying that. I wish folks on the other side of this divide could do the same for their hateful counterparts.

    Nazism should have no support in Greece, considering the brutality of the German Nazis during ww2. It's shameful that there are any.
    Good, and if you are speaking of people on the other side as being me. My nation does not tolerate ties or glorifications with collaboration or nazism, it is even a crime in the latter category. There is one party in particular and that one has been set in a sort of political isolation.

    And as you like using Germany, i suppose this also flew under your radar? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/w...ingia-afd.html
    If it was as common place as you claimed AfD would be in a majority government now.

  17. #257
    Never knew that my jab at the Netherlands derailed it so massively..

    I mean, I pointed out that I dislike/hate the Netherlands and there inflexibility and lack of empathy, goverment-wise.. Sadly this goes deeper then that.. You cannot fix a cultural disease. Poldermodel you say? thats just a way of reaching consensus for everyone acceptable.. nothing flexible about it. And its all cultural.

    Dutch Lutheran/Calvinist culture. Cant be fixed...only thing I had hoped for.. that Hoekstra/Rutte would be atleast tactful and not be a YEET type of message.. Sadly... This was not the case.

    Btw: If you cant tell, yes. I absolutely hate the Netherlands, only reasons why I'm not gone yet: Family, im from the south, no finances to emigrate.
    Last edited by Fuiking; 2020-03-31 at 11:59 PM.
    ''With this attack, we have no choice but to protect our kind by unleashing our almighty weapon upon them. Summoning the Apocalypse'' - Stellaris Apocalypse trailer.

  18. #258
    Unfortunately it will survive it just fine.

  19. #259
    Merely a Setback CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Never knew that my jab at the Netherlands derailed it so massively..

    I mean, I pointed out that I dislike/hate the Netherlands and there inflexibility and lack of empathy, goverment-wise.. Sadly this goes deeper then that.. You cannot fix a cultural disease. Poldermodel you say? thats just a way of reaching consensus for everyone acceptable.. nothing flexible about it. And its all cultural.

    Dutch Lutheran/Calvinist culture. Cant be fixed...only thing I had hoped for.. that Hoekstra/Rutte would be atleast tactful and not be a YEET type of message.. Sadly... This was not the case.

    Btw: If you cant tell, yes. I absolutely hate the Netherlands, only reasons why I'm not gone yet: Family, im from the south, no finances to emigrate.
    Religion will only further fuck it, so good luck with that.
    Joe Biden is a rapist and his supporters are rape apologists

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Religion will only further fuck it, so good luck with that.
    I did not bring in religion per se. Then again, dutch culture is heavily influenced by Calvinism and the Lutheran Church.. if you meant that?
    ''With this attack, we have no choice but to protect our kind by unleashing our almighty weapon upon them. Summoning the Apocalypse'' - Stellaris Apocalypse trailer.

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