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  1. #261
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I'm not a fan of the EU, and I think in the long run Greece would be better off out of the EU. But I do think it's interesting how the virus is laying bare the false face of the EU. There's no solidarity or help between the members. As soon as the virus started spreading, it became every man for himself.

    The northern countries, like the Netherlands and Germany, don't want to extend any help to the south. The south is growing increasingly angry about the lack of help from the centralized EU government and are wondering what they bothered to sign up for.

    Hell, didn't Germany stop medical supplies from going to Italy to keep them for themselves?

    Hmm, here's what I found on that.

    https://www.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-...3-fe4680ea68b5

    When Italy asked for urgent medical supplies under a special European crisis mechanism no EU country responded. Fearful of its own shortages, Germany initially banned the export of medical masks and other protective gear. 3M, a producer, said the German restrictions had made it impossible to supply the Italian market. Berlin subsequently relaxed the export rules, but then Austria closed its borders to people arriving from Italy unless they could prove they were virus-free.


    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14...aly-china-aid/

    So the problem isn't just us profligate, parasitical southern Europeans, as is often made the case by "we never do wrong" northerners. If the EU can't (or more accurately won't) help members with a fucking pandemic, and solidarity is nonexistent except for northerners working and profiting with each other only then what's the point of the whole Frankenstate?
    Brilliant argument you've created.

    Apparently, it is the EU's fault for not having the power to tell countries what to do but it is also the EU's fault for being a centralized government that is unwilling to help.

    How did you come up with this and never thought "wait a minute, that doesn't check out"?

    And you think Greece would be better off out of the EU, because then it would really be everyone for themselves and that despite criticizing it is also better?

    WAT?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  2. #262
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Never knew that my jab at the Netherlands derailed it so massively..

    I mean, I pointed out that I dislike/hate the Netherlands and there inflexibility and lack of empathy, goverment-wise.. Sadly this goes deeper then that.. You cannot fix a cultural disease. Poldermodel you say? thats just a way of reaching consensus for everyone acceptable.. nothing flexible about it. And its all cultural.

    Dutch Lutheran/Calvinist culture. Cant be fixed...only thing I had hoped for.. that Hoekstra/Rutte would be atleast tactful and not be a YEET type of message.. Sadly... This was not the case.

    Btw: If you cant tell, yes. I absolutely hate the Netherlands, only reasons why I'm not gone yet: Family, im from the south, no finances to emigrate.
    Come live in Belgium, or government is easily one of the craziest constructs there is in democracies but we have one of the best healthcare systems in Europe while private insurers are only there for more extra's; only for holiday insurance your dutch provider is the first responder. Working in the Netherlands and living in Belgium is the best of both worlds to be honest ever since the tax agreement.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Come live in Belgium, or government is easily one of the craziest constructs there is in democracies but we have one of the best healthcare systems in Europe while private insurers are only there for more extra's; only for holiday insurance your dutch provider is the first responder. Working in the Netherlands and living in Belgium is the best of both worlds to be honest ever since the tax agreement.
    I'd love to :P
    ''With this attack, we have no choice but to protect our kind by unleashing our almighty weapon upon them. Summoning the Apocalypse'' - Stellaris Apocalypse trailer.

  4. #264
    The EU is largely a trade association. The only sovereignties that the member states have ceded to the EU relate to trade. All other competencies, including defense, are still in the hands of the member states.
    What will be tested from this crisis is the Euro, largely because of Italy's massive debt. I see no recourse beyond the ECB buying some of that debt and placing Italy under far more scrutiny than they did Greece.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The EU is largely a trade association. The only sovereignties that the member states have ceded to the EU relate to trade. All other competencies, including defense, are still in the hands of the member states.
    What will be tested from this crisis is the Euro, largely because of Italy's massive debt. I see no recourse beyond the ECB buying some of that debt and placing Italy under far more scrutiny than they did Greece.
    Despite the events of this week i still see the euro-bonds happening, because the alternative is China gaining ground in Europe and that is not something Germany or the Netherlands want, to name the two big opponents of this idea. They are also getting some criticism.

    Russia is also trying a very odd charm offensive in Italy (disinfecting the streets in Italy, why Russia?), so i doubt that will sway Finland to rethink on this matter but who knows.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Despite the events of this week i still see the euro-bonds happening, because the alternative is China gaining ground in Europe and that is not something Germany or the Netherlands want, to name the two big opponents of this idea. They are also getting some criticism.

    Russia is also trying a very odd charm offensive in Italy (disinfecting the streets in Italy, why Russia?), so i doubt that will sway Finland to rethink on this matter but who knows.
    I honestly don't see Netherlands or Germany budging on this.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  7. #267
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly don't see Netherlands or Germany budging on this.
    I have to agree with an opinion i just heard and that as much like with the banking crisis an answer will come at the final hour when there's no other choice.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly don't see Netherlands or Germany budging on this.
    Probably not, but the next MFF is being discussed. It might not be called that but might be sneaked into the mff as some sort of fund or resolution mechanism as they did during the financial crisis. The problem is not so much agreeing on the principle as explaining it to your citizens

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I'm not a fan of the EU, and I think in the long run Greece would be better off out of the EU. But I do think it's interesting how the virus is laying bare the false face of the EU. There's no solidarity or help between the members. As soon as the virus started spreading, it became every man for himself.
    Oh please, without the EU greece would have walked backwards at a rate of knots. Seems like every second person there was employed by the state to do fuck all and the rest make a hobby of cheating taxes.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Oh please, without the EU greece would have walked backwards at a rate of knots. Seems like every second person there was employed by the state to do fuck all and the rest make a hobby of cheating taxes.
    Not to mention the amazing law that anyone working for the state can never be fired no matter what.
    So those that work for the state many times don't even show up for work. No one can fire them anyway...
    Seriously that is an actual law!

    Most government organizations close at 13:00 so that the dudes that did show up can go home and rest... after 5 hours of hard work!

    But these are happening with EU or without. I don't see why you think EU makes that better.
    and the geek shall inherit the earth

  11. #271
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d00mGuArD View Post
    Not to mention the amazing law that anyone working for the state can never be fired no matter what.
    So those that work for the state many times don't even show up for work. No one can fire them anyway...
    Seriously that is an actual law!

    Most government organizations close at 13:00 so that the dudes that did show up can go home and rest... after 5 hours of hard work!

    But these are happening with EU or without. I don't see why you think EU makes that better.
    The EU requested the number of people employed by the state were reduced, asked to reform and restructure it. In addition tackled the corruption and tax evasion.

    I would have to take some time to search, but there was some sort of agreement between Greece, the EU and The ECB to get the loans that they did. They must have been doing something right as Germany eventually came with reducing their national debt.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by d00mGuArD View Post
    Not to mention the amazing law that anyone working for the state can never be fired no matter what.
    So those that work for the state many times don't even show up for work. No one can fire them anyway...
    Seriously that is an actual law!

    Most government organizations close at 13:00 so that the dudes that did show up can go home and rest... after 5 hours of hard work!

    But these are happening with EU or without. I don't see why you think EU makes that better.
    Indeed all public servants have effective tenure. It is practically impossible to overturn that law (and politicians would not even dare try since it would turn a significant segment of the electorate against them). But public services certainly do not close at 13:00 ( they work 8-15 and are open to the public from 8:30-14:30). Meanwhile the private sector works among the longest hours in the OECD
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Indeed all public servants have effective tenure. It is practically impossible to overturn that law (and politicians would not even dare try since it would turn a significant segment of the electorate against them). But public services certainly do not close at 13:00 ( they work 8-15 and are open to the public from 8:30-14:30). Meanwhile the private sector works among the longest hours in the OECD
    Shhh, don't counter their narrative. Can't have that. Greeks were working some of the longest hours in the West even before the crisis, but it's easy to just focus on the handful of cases that suit a convenient narrative.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  14. #274
    European leaders warn coronavirus could lead to the breakup of their union

    E.U. countries have begun to coordinate their efforts to procure supplies, and they have sent more aid to hard-hit Italy than China has. But the past week has seen a reemergence of a north-south rift over how to handle the economic response. The union is also being pulled east to west, as Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has used emergency powers to effectively suspend democracy, riding roughshod over Europe’s basic principles of the rule of law.

    Collectively, these tensions could overwhelm the alliance.

    “This could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back,” Nathalie Tocci, director of the International Affairs Institute in Italy. “The reason why coronavirus is such an epochal challenge is not that it brought things out of the blue. It touches on all spheres and does so by accentuating dynamics that are already there. It’s as if it is bringing the extreme out of everything.”

    Norbert Röttgen, a German politician jockeying to succeed Chancellor Angela Merkel, likened the continent’s infighting to “a grueling trench war,” as he joined the chorus of voices warning that the E.U. is in grave peril.

    “The climate that seems to reign among heads of state and government and the lack of European solidarity pose a mortal danger to the European Union,” Jacques Delors, a 94-year-old French politician who played a leading role in the creation of the bloc’s modern form, warned in a rare statement.

    The debate has reopened wounds that had just barely scarred over from the 2008 financial crisis, when Germany led Europeans in imposing painful austerity measures on Greece and Italy in exchange for financial assistance.

    Now, with needs even more acute, some are left wondering: If the richer E.U. countries are not willing to support their struggling neighbors, what’s the point of membership at all?

    The European Commission has gone to pains to point out acts of European “solidarity,” including how Germany and Luxembourg have taken in coronavirus patients from France and Italy. France has donated a million masks to Italy, while Germany has sent seven tons of medical gear, it pointed out in a recent fact sheet. The commission also has set up a joint stockpile of medical equipment.

    But with the early reluctance to share supplies, and the resounding “no” from northern European countries on coronabonds, it’s been hard to compete with the television images of China flying in boxes of aid and Russian soldiers convoying into northern Italy.

    “Europe really is going to have to come together and overcome its initial stumbles if it wants to win this battle of narratives,” said Noah Barkin, a senior visiting fellow at the German Marshall Fund. “It really can’t afford to be seen as bickering at a time like this.”

    While that applied during the financial crisis a decade ago, Barkin said, it’s even more crucial now, given “a much more hostile United States and a rising China, which has shown it’s going to take full advantage of this crisis to promote its own interests.”

  15. #275
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    snip
    https://www.businessinsider.com/coro...20-3?r=DE&IR=T

    "Russia sent Italy a military convoy of medical supplies to help with the coronavirus outbreak. Italy said it was useless and accused them of a PR stunt."

    Russia trolling on a state level.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Despite the events of this week i still see the euro-bonds happening, because the alternative is China gaining ground in Europe and that is not something Germany or the Netherlands want, to name the two big opponents of this idea. They are also getting some criticism.

    Russia is also trying a very odd charm offensive in Italy (disinfecting the streets in Italy, why Russia?), so i doubt that will sway Finland to rethink on this matter but who knows.
    You know those so called charm offensives are a joke right, nobody bloody cares if they get some free stuff from country A or B.

  17. #277
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    You know those so called charm offensives are a joke right, nobody bloody cares if they get some free stuff from country A or B.
    Russia's yes it is, however don't underestimate it all. Remember the US Marshall Act? If there's a long term strategy behind it with a specific goal in mind what China has it is something to look out for. Crisis or not, China is still going full ahead with their modern day "Silk Road" plan.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by d00mGuArD View Post
    Not to mention the amazing law that anyone working for the state can never be fired no matter what.
    So those that work for the state many times don't even show up for work. No one can fire them anyway...
    Seriously that is an actual law!

    Most government organizations close at 13:00 so that the dudes that did show up can go home and rest... after 5 hours of hard work!

    Which is actually longer than most people work.

    I can see here no one has any actual experience of work or a complete lack of self-awareness/perception.

    Most people doing a 9-5 spend under 3 hours doing actual work. Mostly they are just sitting around checking social media, chatting, essentially looking busy and doing fuck all. Look at your workplace at people who think they are being watched and you see this happens literally everywhere.

    So don't give the Greeks a hard time but you spend an extra 3 hours a day picking your nose and gossiping. That's not work, that's just f***ing stupid. The actual impact of the EU going to a 5 hour working week would be almost zero in the vast majority of sectors.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Russia's yes it is, however don't underestimate it all. Remember the US Marshall Act? If there's a long term strategy behind it with a specific goal in mind what China has it is something to look out for. Crisis or not, China is still going full ahead with their modern day "Silk Road" plan.
    For all of it's faults you can not compare the US with Russia.
    US often has been more of a partner/leader during times of crisis something neither China or Russia is capable of doing.
    Sure Trump and Bush has undermined this partner/leader role in recent times but that's a different discussion.

    Marshall Plan was not just free money to buy American goods you know, there where series of reforms and long term goals that allowed for the successful reconstruction of Europe which America benefited greatly from it. Reforms that neither China or Russia would support at any time in there history.

  20. #280
    terrible situation ... I can’t even believe that this could happen. It’s like I got into the movie I am Legend

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