How the European Union may not survive the Coronavirus

[ati87]

There's two sides to this whole NL/IT conflict to be honest and it doesn't paint a pretty picture of either side.

One of the major problems the EU is facing is the divide between the better off countries and the countries that are less well off. And it comes down to how to pay for stuff.

A wealthy EU means every member is better off but the cost of creating this wealth has always been the responsibility of certain countries. So I can understand why the governments of Netherlands and Germany (and a few more) are sceptical of creating this EURO Bonds while at the same time not really tackling the underlying policy problems that italy and Greece for really bothered fixing.

The problems of Italy are not fully to blame on Corona, Italy has been systematically mismanaged for decades and this pandemic has been the straw that broke the camels back.

[Acidbaron]

One of the major problems the EU is facing is the divide between the better off countries and the countries that are less well off. And it comes down to how to pay for stuff.

A wealthy EU means every member is better off but the cost of creating this wealth has always been the responsibility of certain countries. So I can understand why the governments of Netherlands and Germany (and a few more) are sceptical of creating this EURO Bonds while at the same time not really tackling the underlying policy problems that italy and Greece for really bothered fixing.

The problems of Italy are not fully to blame on Corona, Italy has been systematically mismanaged for decades and this pandemic has been the straw that broke the camels back.

I am also speaking of the year(s) of diplomatic and political conflict between the both, not just the current crisis.
While understanding both sides and a support package is needed for more than just the healthcare side of it, creating eurobonds while having elements in there like Italy does not bode well for anyone. I changed my stance on this remembering who actually holds the political power in Italy and who is bound to gain even more political control.

But it also goes beyond just Italy as Eurobonds would be over the entire EU zone and the more i think about it the more i have to accept the EU simply is not ready for such a step without there being more federal oversight and control on budgets, something has to be done to boost economies and sanitize them of bad elements while also making it for a part socially acceptable. The hard part about this is, because we waited too long to act this is now an issue and you aren't going to find a lot of support to simply bail out a nation, Greece made a good example of what happens if you just keep throwing money at a problem and start to make a political issue about it when it has completely gone of the tracks.

So knowing that Eurobonds (long term viable ones..) would mean a country has to cut spending and that's the last thing we can do right now. Don't misunderstand i find the "charity" initiative from the dutch government to also not be enough.

[tromage2]

Netherlands is super unflexible and refusing... not suprised.. They act like autists.

Fuck it, you made it IT you got your money and we now can again start upping our pension age in the Netherlands toward 80 to fund your unhealthy economic situation. Hopefully soon we follow England with our own Nexit.

[Acidbaron]

Agreement reached between 19 member states for an initial aid package.

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/20...S1bm8GTDI.html

Hoekstra announced via Twitter that countries can make use of the European emergency fund ESM. For medical costs, this is initially possible without appointments. If money is also needed to stimulate the economy, conditions do apply.

According to Hoekstra, the Eurobonds, the joint issue of debt paper on which the countries also disagreed, are off the table.

The emergency fund has been the point of contention between Italy and the Netherlands in recent days. Hoekstra insisted that money should not simply be borrowed from a fund that is partly financed with tax money from the euro countries. That was never the intention when the ESM was set up in 2012 during the euro crisis. The Italians saw this as a lack of solidarity.

[Fuiking]

Fuck it, you made it IT you got your money and we now can again start upping our pension age in the Netherlands toward 80 to fund your unhealthy economic situation. Hopefully soon we follow England with our own Nexit.

Im dutch my friend..

[Mayhem]

Fuck it, you made it IT you got your money and we now can again start upping our pension age in the Netherlands toward 80 to fund your unhealthy economic situation. Hopefully soon we follow England with our own Nexit.

If your pension age is anywhere above 65 you have an unhealthy economic situation yourself.

[Shalcker]

Two different sources, 2 different stories:

https://erc.europa.eu/news/resignati...SPy3SpMe20YBOA

Looks to me like he's the wrong person in the wrong time, didn't accept that, tried to meddle in things not his job and when called out quit and tried to burn the house down.

I rather trust the word of the whole council than one pissed man, especially since: "All 19 active ERC members say they asked him to resign on 27 March, b/c he did not understand ERC mission."

But, reading Ferrari's statement... it's same story actually?

That is, ossified political processes that are not allowed to be disturbed by ideas of outsiders - even if situation possibly warrants extraordinary responses, and change/expansion of existing legal mandate could be supported at higher levels.

100 millions they cite is fairly pitiful figure on EU level as well.

[ati87]

Agreement reached between 19 member states for an initial aid package.

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/20...S1bm8GTDI.html

Hoekstra announced via Twitter that countries can make use of the European emergency fund ESM. For medical costs, this is initially possible without appointments. If money is also needed to stimulate the economy, conditions do apply.

According to Hoekstra, the Eurobonds, the joint issue of debt paper on which the countries also disagreed, are off the table.

The emergency fund has been the point of contention between Italy and the Netherlands in recent days. Hoekstra insisted that money should not simply be borrowed from a fund that is partly financed with tax money from the euro countries. That was never the intention when the ESM was set up in 2012 during the euro crisis. The Italians saw this as a lack of solidarity.

Lets be honest though.
Italy or whichever country that is a net receiver of EU money will never leave the EU. They will bitch and Americans will speculate about the end of the EU but no country actually wants to leave the EU.

[Acidbaron]

Lets be honest though.
Italy or whichever country that is a net receiver of EU money will never leave the EU. They will bitch and Americans will speculate about the end of the EU but no country actually wants to leave the EU.

Never say never, the problem is you are looking at this from a rational perspective, one that factors in the long term well being of a nation. If Brexit has taught us one thing is that advocates for leaving the EU can have different motives, personal greed or ambition can play a big role and all you need are a few populist slogans to get people riled up to vote against their interest.

It could also be very well used to strengthen their political on national level only to see it starting to turn against them, this is something that happened to Cameron.

You are also speaking of the nation that produced Mussolini, a dictator that worked together with a Nazi Germany that considered Italians sub-human.

I don't see them leaving the EU but you also have to factor in China's role in Italy and more importantly their interest in Italy and how much it worth to them.

[Forogil]

The problems of Italy are not fully to blame on Corona, Italy has been systematically mismanaged for decades and this pandemic has been the straw that broke the camels back.

You are too kind to Italy.

Yes, Italy has been systematically mismanaged for decades, but it's also likely that the systematic mismanagement contributed to the pandemic getting a foothold there without being detected locally. (It's telling when India detected it in tourists from Italy.)

That Italy fails to realize this and tries to portray themselves solely as victims is not a good sign.

[ati87]

Never say never, the problem is you are looking at this from a rational perspective, one that factors in the long term well being of a nation. If Brexit has taught us one thing is that advocates for leaving the EU can have different motives, personal greed or ambition can play a big role and all you need are a few populist slogans to get people riled up to vote against their interest.

It could also be very well used to strengthen their political on national level only to see it starting to turn against them, this is something that happened to Cameron.

You are also speaking of the nation that produced Mussolini, a dictator that worked together with a Nazi Germany that considered Italians sub-human.

I don't see them leaving the EU but you also have to factor in China's role in Italy and more importantly their interest in Italy and how much it worth to them.

Don't overthink Brexit though, the British never really joined the EU in the same way.

For all of it's bluster and tough talk, Greece eventually caved to the EU when it faced bankruptcy instead of leaving the EU and trying to deal with it';s problem on there own.

Non of these countries can afford leaving the EU in the literal sense. If these left the EU and started printing money (as they wanted to do this time again) the inflation would skyrocket and suddenly everybody would be poor. Now as a politician would you want to explain to the country why pensions and savings have become worthless?

Brexit is stupid since the UK has been spending billions to make it happen with nothing in return, there was however never a danger of hyper inflation.

[tromage2]

If your pension age is anywhere above 65 you have an unhealthy economic situation yourself.

Ok, then we in the Netherlands cant spend money since we alrdy are in a bad situation.

[Acidbaron]

Don't overthink Brexit though, the British never really joined the EU in the same way.

For all of it's bluster and tough talk, Greece eventually caved to the EU when it faced bankruptcy instead of leaving the EU and trying to deal with it';s problem on there own.

Non of these countries can afford leaving the EU in the literal sense. If these left the EU and started printing money (as they wanted to do this time again) the inflation would skyrocket and suddenly everybody would be poor. Now as a politician would you want to explain to the country why pensions and savings have become worthless?

Brexit is stupid since the UK has been spending billions to make it happen with nothing in return, there was however never a danger of hyper inflation.

Actual leaving seems also unlikely looking at the work that is required to also leave the Euro, that infrastructure no long exists.

Greece finally buckled under the reality however we also have to admit the reason Greece approached this the way it did was due to how it previously was handled.
Politically they are also not there yet. This is also why i am happy with the current form of the aid package. "SURE" in particular for the southern nations.

That being said a populist movement can still be very damaging to the nation itself and in turn the EU, so while they may not leave this promise of things will be better when they leave can prevent political change and get a public opinion rusted in position that certain changes are not needed. Passing problems down the line once more for future generations to deal with. But yes if they were to actually leave it goes beyond their pensions and savings, it also effects the countries ability to function and import goods, especially medical supplies it also handicaps the nation to recruit people they need again in the healthcare sector this is something we are already seeing in the UK, just the prospect alone that they might leave can put them in a worse position and ideally we don't want weak parts in the chain coming out of this deep crisis that will last for years.


Now back to the Commission outcome and i am glad the EU continues their efforts to be transparent so we don't have to rely on external sources to get all our information as seen sadly in the US.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-...nse/economy_en




A package split over 3 parts, a requirement of certain governments especially the Dutch so that the money is only utilized for direct and indirect Corona related problems.

As i said before the SURE is interesting what i also found surprising is that southern nations do not have such a measure in place so now that is coming.


SURE - a new instrument to mitigate unemployment risks

On 2 April the European Commission launched a new initiative designed to protect jobs and workers affected by the coronavirus outbreak - the temporary Support mitigating Unemployment Risks in Emergency (SURE) initiative. The SURE initiative will provide financial assistance of up to €100 billion in total to Member States in the form of loans granted on favourable terms. These loans will help Member States to cover the costs of national short-time work schemes - public programmes that allow firms to reduce the working hours while providing income support. The short-time work schemes help sustain families’ incomes and preserve the productive capacity and human capital of enterprises and the overall economy.



Recommend reading the whole thing and i am positive about this, since while the money currently made available will not be enough as i don't think this crisis will end soon, the EU plan highlights that there's an actual plan in place with a framework that is unlike our American counter part not almost exclusively tailored for companies and certain sectors. There's also an overview by country.

I am sure our regulars will find ways to break this down but i have yet to see any other group be this transparent about their aid package.

[Acidbaron]

Honestly the Dutch and German argument that the ESM is enough is pretty damn sound. The insistence on Eurobonds by Italy, Spain and France makes little sense. We already have the ESM and we can enlarge it as is needed. It feels like scapegoating.

I am a bit surprised that France joined their ranks, although that might fit in more with the ideology Macron has for a more unified and federal Europe.

Personally i am pleased with this, it is not something that was throw together quick it is transparent, it shows us where the money comes from, how it is going to be used. It is also important to note that part of why this is possible now is how the EU reacted after the banking crisis, otherwise we would not have that money from investment banks now.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

I am a bit surprised that France joined their ranks, although that might fit in more with the ideology Macron has for a more unified and federal Europe.

Personally i am pleased with this, it is not something that was throw together quick it is transparent, it shows us where the money comes from, how it is going to be used. It is also important to note that part of why this is possible now is how the EU reacted after the banking crisis, otherwise we would not have that money from investment banks now.

Or could simply be that, on a systemic point of view, France is much closer to the former PIIGS, with a bloated public sector running on debt money, so one that would have to gain the most from a mutualization of debts.

[Acidbaron]

Or could simply be that, on a systemic point of view, France is much closer to the former PIIGS, with a bloated public sector running on debt money, so one that would have to gain the most from a mutualization of debts.

I have to admit that when it comes to France their financial situation in relation to their public sector is not something i am all to familiar with. I know of their plethora of social democratic constructs so guess that could make sense if all those are public employees in those sectors and not private.

In any case all the more reason an euro bond did not happen this time, as that would have stopped those nations need for reform into something more sustainable on the long term.

[Mayhem]

Ok, then we in the Netherlands cant spend money since we alrdy are in a bad situation.

You have to get your shit together was what I meant to say, seriously, you are too wealthy to have a pension age that high.

[tromage2]

You have to get your shit together was what I meant to say, seriously, you are too wealthy to have a pension age that high.

No we make sure we got money for crisis situations like we currently have to survive and not beg others to get money from.
Its called being prepared for what might happen in the future.

[Demolitia]

You have to get your shit together was what I meant to say, seriously, you are too wealthy to have a pension age that high.

They are wealthy because they spend their money wisely. The Netherlands have some of the most sustainable and balanced healthcare and pension systems.

[Acidbaron]

They are wealthy because they spend their money wisely. The Netherlands have some of the most sustainable and balanced healthcare and pension systems.

I am not a fan of their private healthcare system, it isn't nearly as great as they make it seem to be. There are also plenty of dutch people who seek medical aid in Belgium because they have been "given up on" in their own nation. Than again any nation who runs his healthcare as a business first healthcare second won't ever meet the standards i am used to.