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  1. #61
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    As I said already, it makes no sense to kick anyone out immediately.

    The rooms aren't going to magically be rented out... no one is doing anything.

    You can easily give them accommodations and say a few weeks to find new accommodations, exactly what will they lose by doing that? Rooms that would otherwise be empty have people in them who aren't paying... but an empty room doesn't pay for itself either.
    Honestly, in the case of employer-provided accommodations, I kind of think it should be treated the same way as when a landlord has to kick you out of a residence they need for themselves. In Ontario, that has some pretty strict requirements which don't bear on this, but the relevant point is that while a landlord can do that (meeting the requirements, we assume), they still are required to give the tenant 60 days notice to clear out.

    That seems fair. Fire the person, and they have to find a new living space within 2 months of being fired. If they weren't being charged rent, then they're staying for free. If they were being charged rent, they would've need to be paid enough to overcome that large additional expense, and that makes the job MUCH more appealing to anyone local who doesn't need accommodations.

    Two months seems fine to me. If it's because of some contractual failure on the part of the employee (stealing office supplies, constantly late, insubordinate), then we can drop that to a month, and make it more comparable to a tenant breaking lease agreements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I heard an interview from an employee that claimed he had worked at the hotel for three years.
    As a side note, these kinds of arguments demonstrate a deep misunderstanding by employees.

    It doesn't matter two fucks how long you've been working for a company. They owe you nothing that isn't in your contract. You are a resource to be exploited, not a partner in the operation.

    Which isn't me saying "and this is totally cool". I'm a market socialist, I vastly prefer employee ownership, where this is not the case. But this is the capitalist expectation; staff are an exploitable resource, and the only reason a company really has, business-wise, to do anything good for their staff, is to improve their ability to exploit that staff. And that's fine, if you're aware of how little they value and respect you. Exploit them right the fuck back. If you're not bucking for promotion, do the bare minimum required of you to keep the job. Stop breaking your back for a company that does the bare minimum to support you in return. It's an antagonistic relationship, not a cooperative one, in the same way that prosecutors and defense attorneys are both lawyers pursuing justice, but are antagonistic in their approach, and seeking any weakness to exploit in the other.

    The company doesn't give a shit that you've been working there for three years. Unless it means you get bigger severance or something, they don't value you any more. Don't lose sight of that and fall for their "we super care about you, here's a couple cheap pepperoni pizzas to thank you for the hundred hours of unpaid overtime" bullshit.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As a side note, these kinds of arguments demonstrate a deep misunderstanding by employees.

    It doesn't matter two fucks how long you've been working for a company. They owe you nothing that isn't in your contract. You are a resource to be exploited, not a partner in the operation.

    Which isn't me saying "and this is totally cool". I'm a market socialist, I vastly prefer employee ownership, where this is not the case. But this is the capitalist expectation; staff are an exploitable resource, and the only reason a company really has, business-wise, to do anything good for their staff, is to improve their ability to exploit that staff. And that's fine, if you're aware of how little they value and respect you. Exploit them right the fuck back. If you're not bucking for promotion, do the bare minimum required of you to keep the job. Stop breaking your back for a company that does the bare minimum to support you in return. It's an antagonistic relationship, not a cooperative one, in the same way that prosecutors and defense attorneys are both lawyers pursuing justice, but are antagonistic in their approach, and seeking any weakness to exploit in the other.

    The company doesn't give a shit that you've been working there for three years. Unless it means you get bigger severance or something, they don't value you any more. Don't lose sight of that and fall for their "we super care about you, here's a couple cheap pepperoni pizzas to thank you for the hundred hours of unpaid overtime" bullshit.
    What are you talking about? If the employee has worked for a company for two years or longer they are entitled to a minimum notice period of one week for every full year they have worked for the company up to a maximum of 12 weeks under two years employment it is one week thus if the employee had worked at the hotel for three years they would be in breach of employment law by offering one weeks paid notice.
    Last edited by Pann; 2020-03-27 at 05:45 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Jehct View Post
    Some companies are taking advantage of the crisis and trying to just get rid of people. I work for an "essential service" in Telemedicine. We service hospitals all over the US. Instead of going the correct and moral/ethical route. My company has told a few people that had minimal concerns over the virus like ( Office cleanliness, people maintaining hygiene and practicing common hygienic things like coughing in your arm ) that they should just stay home and claim unemployment insurance and to claim that they are a non essential worker to the government so the company can basically get rid of them. It's insane.

    Many many scumfucks are rearing their heads in this crisis.
    Great, then don't work from those companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The whole point of the scheme is to avoid businesses laying of staff because they cannot afford to pay them as a result it was never going to be a requirement for the business to continue making NI or pension contributions based on CJRS what was unclear was whether this would included in the payments or on top of them thus your claim that I was ignoring hidden costs was false.
    No, because you're still ignoring the fact that there are other costs. Hand waving some of them as negligible doesn't remove them from existence. Even ignoring the "negligible' ones, you still didn't address the others I brought up. I already said in my previous reply that I agree that with the new details released yesterday this covers wages, NI, and minimum pension. So if that's all your point was, great, we're done here. But if you're trying to argue this gives employers no reason not to do this, then no, you're mistaken. Everything about the current state of the economy is showing otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    However no business will be able to trade without customers and given the public reaction to these actions it is unclear whether the businesses who act like this will have many customers.
    Outrage culture tends to have a terribly short attention span. By the time this is all over, so much of this will be long forgotten. A tourist 5 months from now likely isn't going to remember this hotel, and even if they do, they still need to care.

    You're also assuming every employee who goes on furlough comes back.Yet another risk.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    No, because you're still ignoring the fact that there are other costs. Hand waving some of them as negligible doesn't remove them from existence. Even ignoring the "negligible' ones, you still didn't address the others I brought up. I already said in my previous reply that I agree that with the new details released yesterday this covers wages, NI, and minimum pension. So if that's all your point was, great, we're done here. But if you're trying to argue this gives employers no reason not to do this, then no, you're mistaken. Everything about the current state of the economy is showing otherwise.
    I honestly have no idea how me pointing out that the employer is not obligated to pay the employee the amount not covered by the CJRS has resulted in you constantly pointing out that I am supposedly ignoring things that have nothing to do with this point.

    I have addressed the costs you mentioned - the employer may choose to top up the employee's wages over the amount paid by CJRS is under no obligation to do so.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Great, then don't work from those companies.
    Lol. Yea no shit. But can't get another job instantly. That's some boomer response you gave there. nice
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, I think a company should be legally allowed to refuse to serve black people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    I don't know what you are watching, but it isn't fucking reality.
    Hes talking about me saying Joe Biden has dementia. LOL

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jehct View Post
    Lol. Yea no shit. But can't get another job instantly. That's some boomer response you gave there. nice
    You should have prepared years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You should have prepared years ago.
    I should have prepared years ago for a randomly occuring pandemic. Damn. Ultra boomer response again. "You should have seen the future maaan".

    If you read my first response. It said they are saying this to some people. Not to me lol. None of these kinds of things happened before the Covid pandemic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, I think a company should be legally allowed to refuse to serve black people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    I don't know what you are watching, but it isn't fucking reality.
    Hes talking about me saying Joe Biden has dementia. LOL

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jehct View Post
    I should have prepared years ago for a randomly occuring pandemic. Damn. Ultra boomer response again. "You should have seen the future maaan".

    If you read my first response. It said they are saying this to some people. Not to me lol. None of these kinds of things happened before the Covid pandemic.
    Yes, you should be prepared for economic downturns. We had a huge one a decade ago, did you learn nothing from it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  10. #70
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, you should be prepared for economic downturns. We had a huge one a decade ago, did you learn nothing from it?
    So you support mandating a strong basic income or a much higher minimum wage ($15/hour won't cut it), to guarantee that everyone has the fiscal capacity to prepare for such downturns?

    Because if you're living paycheck to paycheck, you can't.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So you support mandating a strong basic income or a much higher minimum wage ($15/hour won't cut it), to guarantee that everyone has the fiscal capacity to prepare for such downturns?

    Because if you're living paycheck to paycheck, you can't.
    I support people saving money, and preparing for financial difficulties. I support them choosing to work for employers that pay them what they feel they deserve. I support their freedom to work elsewhere, if they do not like their present employer.

    Stop. Living. Paycheck. To. Paycheck.

    That's the entire point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  12. #72
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I support people saving money, and preparing for financial difficulties. I support them choosing to work for employers that pay them what they feel they deserve. I support their freedom to work elsewhere, if they do not like their present employer.

    Stop. Living. Paycheck. To. Paycheck.

    That's the entire point.
    You're avoiding answering the question.

    Do you support either a strong basic income, or a significant boost to minimum wage, so that it is a true living wage?

    Because without either of those, "stop living paycheck to paycheck" is a horseshit demand that is functionally impossible for the people you're condemning. Which means you're not actually making an argument. You're just patting yourself on your back about how righteous your desire to increase human suffering is.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, you should be prepared for economic downturns. We had a huge one a decade ago, did you learn nothing from it?
    It's ok to be ignorant about the situation. It's not just a flu anymore is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, I think a company should be legally allowed to refuse to serve black people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    I don't know what you are watching, but it isn't fucking reality.
    Hes talking about me saying Joe Biden has dementia. LOL

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're avoiding answering the question.

    Do you support either a strong basic income, or a significant boost to minimum wage, so that it is a true living wage?

    Because without either of those, "stop living paycheck to paycheck" is a horseshit demand that is functionally impossible for the people you're condemning. Which means you're not actually making an argument. You're just patting yourself on your back about how righteous your desire to increase human suffering is.
    The answer is no, I thought I was clear enough.

    No, it's not horseshit, develop some personal fucking responsibility. I'm not the one who wants to increase human suffering, I'll leave that to those who want to raise taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehct View Post
    It's ok to be ignorant about the situation. It's not just a flu anymore is it?
    I never said it was just a flu.

    It's a major economic downturn, one you had a long time to prepare for. It's been a decade since the last one, so why are you not prepared?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  15. #75
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The answer is no, I thought I was clear enough.

    No, it's not horseshit, develop some personal fucking responsibility. I'm not the one who wants to increase human suffering, I'll leave that to those who want to raise taxes.

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    I never said it was just a flu.

    It's a major economic downturn, one you had a long time to prepare for. It's been a decade since the last one, so why are you not prepared?
    and exactly how was anyone supposed to predict this?
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  16. #76
    Yes, Mr. Machismo, prepare for financial downturn when you cant save anything because you live paycheck to paycheck. HOW? "Just change the job"? xD
    Genius... Real world sucks and thats why there are supposed to be safeguards against shit companies firing you on the spot and in case of this thread to move your living space within hours.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    and exactly how was anyone supposed to predict this?
    Predict an economic downturn? It's all about being prepared. The cause of the downturn doesn't much matter, it's the difficult times people need to be prepared for. Having money set aside, not getting into a lot of credit card debt, and having a plan of action really isn't that hard to do.

    We've had more than 10 years to plan for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Yes, Mr. Machismo, prepare for financial downturn when you cant save anything because you live paycheck to paycheck. HOW? "Just change the job"? xD
    Genius... Real world sucks and thats why there are supposed to be safeguards against shit companies firing you on the spot and in case of this thread to move your living space within hours.
    Then stop living paycheck to fucking paycheck. Even saving a tiny amount is something. Stop the needless expenditures, and actually put anything away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  18. #78
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The answer is no, I thought I was clear enough.

    No, it's not horseshit, develop some personal fucking responsibility. I'm not the one who wants to increase human suffering, I'll leave that to those who want to raise taxes.
    You're literally blaming the economically oppressed, who lack any power or influence to improve their circumstances, for those same circumstances.

    It's misanthropic victim blaming, and an admission that you desire to continue a system predicated on the creation of human hardship and suffering, to allow the wealthy to become even wealthier.

    It's exactly as heinous when you defend this as it is when people like Trump do, and your reasons are fundamentally the same. Rich people, to you, are "better", by virtue of being rich, and the poor deserve what hardships they face, according to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then stop living paycheck to fucking paycheck. Even saving a tiny amount is something. Stop the needless expenditures, and actually put anything away.
    You've clearly never had to live paycheck to paycheck. This is literally impossible for most people in such circumstances. They don't have a "tiny amount" to put into savings every paycheck.

    Most of these people do not see a net positive income until they're nearing retirement, if ever.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're literally blaming the economically oppressed, who lack any power or influence to improve their circumstances, for those same circumstances.

    It's misanthropic victim blaming, and an admission that you desire to continue a system predicated on the creation of human hardship and suffering, to allow the wealthy to become even wealthier.

    It's exactly as heinous when you defend this as it is when people like Trump do, and your reasons are fundamentally the same. Rich people, to you, are "better", by virtue of being rich, and the poor deserve what hardships they face, according to you.

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    You've clearly never had to live paycheck to paycheck. This is literally impossible for most people in such circumstances. They don't have a "tiny amount" to put into savings every paycheck.

    Most of these people do not see a net positive income until they're nearing retirement, if ever.
    Except, I have lived paycheck to paycheck. I used to be terrible with finances, and wasted money I couldn't afford to waste. It's not "literally impossible," it simply requires discipline.

    I'm saying that people are where they are at as a result of the decisions they made in life. If you want to say I'm blaming them, fine. It's their fault they aren't prepared for economic downturns.

    Stop. Wasting. Money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  20. #80
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, I have lived paycheck to paycheck. I used to be terrible with finances, and wasted money I couldn't afford to waste. It's not "literally impossible," it simply requires discipline.

    I'm saying that people are where they are at as a result of the decisions they made in life. If you want to say I'm blaming them, fine. It's their fault they aren't prepared for economic downturns.

    Stop. Wasting. Money.
    I'll just note here that "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" originated as an idiom for a literally impossible task; you can't pick yourself up by lifting on your shoelaces.

    That people like yourself have indoctrinated this impossibility as your touchstone social policy says everything anyone needs to know about how utterly ridiculous an idea it is.

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