Mythic+ without timer

[Cleansing Totem]

Aye, that's good. But now you can't advance to +12

With your own key. You are free to go look for another key. You also now have a +10 to try and push again if you want. I don't really see a problem.

[Tronski]

The loot isn't the only reward you receive however. You also obtain an upgrade or a downgrade to your key. It is not fair for group B to spend 5-10 hours in a dungeon and have there key still upgrade and get loot while group A gains though same rewards. There has to be a balance to these things. No one is saying Group B can't get better and gain that competitive edge but if they're actively choosing not to pursue that edge then they shouldn't gain the same exact rewards as people who are.

Why not?

Is speedrunning mythic raids yielding greater rewards these days? Or do you get the same rewards for spending a whole week as Method would be getting for clearing in 2 hours?

Literally no difference.

[Eapoe]

Why not?

Is speedrunning mythic raids yielding greater rewards these days? Or do you get the same rewards for spending a whole week as Method would be getting for clearing in 2 hours?

Literally no difference.

I’d love for m+ to have the same difficulty curve as mythic raiding for this comparison alone. Sure, let’s do away with timers just to have something only 1% of the game’s population can do. Great alternative.
“Well, we plowed thru this +10, but this last boss is kicking our ass. Guess we’re gonna have to spend the next 4-5 days in here for about 2-5 hours a go to try and kill it.”
Yep, nothing wrong with that perspective you just tried to use.

On topic, no, I don’t think timers should disappear from m+. It’s literally part of the design of the system. Also, as others have said, if you want to spend hours trying to clear your +2-whatever then you are free to do so. Just don’t expect an upgrade.
People keep asking, “ but what’s wrong with...?” What’s wrong with it is that it is not how the system works, and what those people want is something completely different. They then go on to state they want something based off of skill while ignoring that clearing m+ in the time limit is skill based. It’s the most hypocritical approach to an argument that I’ve seen in a while.

[Zantera]

I think it's good the way it is because the timer is what adds the difficulty to it. I don't think you can compare mythic raiding with dungeons because the difficulty of raids have always been to coordinate a large group of people - and in more recent expansions, many bosses are designed in a way where if 1 or 2 people dies then it's RIP. With a 5-man dungeon you still get gear right now even if you finish a key out of time, but your key wont upgrade if you do - which seems fair.

[Lyrel8490]

I’d love for m+ to have the same difficulty curve as mythic raiding for this comparison alone. Sure, let’s do away with timers just to have something only 1% of the game’s population can do. Great alternative.
“Well, we plowed thru this +10, but this last boss is kicking our ass. Guess we’re gonna have to spend the next 4-5 days in here for about 2-5 hours a go to try and kill it.”
Yep, nothing wrong with that perspective you just tried to use.

Except your comparison doesn't really hold up. You compare a +10 key to mythic raiding. That would be more in the range of +20 and above which are the keys most of the active mythic raiders in my guild run.

How does participation look in this bracket? probably more like that of mythic raiding participation would be my guess. so yeah.

Also a boss designed to be killed by 5 people obviously wouldn't be comparable a boss designed to be killed by 20.

[Soikona]

I think it's good the way it is because the timer is what adds the difficulty to it. I don't think you can compare mythic raiding with dungeons because the difficulty of raids have always been to coordinate a large group of people - and in more recent expansions, many bosses are designed in a way where if 1 or 2 people dies then it's RIP. With a 5-man dungeon you still get gear right now even if you finish a key out of time, but your key wont upgrade if you do - which seems fair.

But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?

[Ragnarohk]

But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?

I would be all for Mythic+ to have more interesting affixes, complex mechanics and smarter NPCs. I agree with you, it doesn't have to boil down to time.

[Clozer]

run multiple tanks/healers, use bloodlust every pull and trivialize everything to solve not a single problem but insecure people won't see a timer. Yay good idea.

[Ragnarohk]

run multiple tanks/healers, use bloodlust every pull and trivialize everything to solve not a single problem but insecure people won't see a timer. Yay good idea.

I mean, that was an extreme mock scenario. The point isn't to always do this. What I'm proposing can also help 1/1/3 groups

[Sinx]

What you're asking for is essentially what Torghast in Shadowlands is. If it's well recieved, it's quite possible that it gets evolved to a permanent gameplay feature with scaling loot, much like challenge mode (which largely only had the transmog set rewards) got changed into mythic+, with item rewards reflecting difficulty and your progression, allowing for alternative ways to get competetive gear besides raiding and to some degree pvp.

Mythic+ is like the first new major gameplay concept during the last 15 years that has actually been successful, and a lot of players have it as their main content now. From a business perspective it would be plain stupidity to remove it or completely change it at this point. But that's not to say there can't be other gameplay concepts added to the game.

[Zantera]

But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?

I hear you and I think there is room for this, but whenever it happens like Mechagon in BFA or Kara in Legion it does become a joke after a while. Just thinking back to 'hard' dungeons in the past whether it's MGT in TBC or Halls of Reflection in WotLK - those all seem like a joke now even compared to a key as low as a +15. Personally I like it when we get a dungeon (or two) with each patch and that dungeon does have a harder difficulty, because at least initially it provides that challenge in the form of a non timed 5-man dungeon.

[Tarba]

run multiple tanks/healers, use bloodlust every pull and trivialize everything to solve not a single problem but insecure people won't see a timer. Yay good idea.

Keep enrage on boss. Problem solved. And it wasn't even hard to solve. Like a 2s thinking.

[Tsamane]

Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.

0 deaths +5 to your key/key used
1 death, +4
2 deaths +3
3 deaths + 2
4-5 deaths +1
6-15 deaths +0
16-25 deaths -1

And so on. Once you start getting higher on number of deaths the more you lose.

[Twdft]

Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.

Great recipe to make pugs real toxic real fast...

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?

A 15+ key takes skill otherwise everyone would be doing it. I've asked aotc players and they've admitted from an individual skill point that mythic+ is harder than mythic raiding. The only difficulty behind mythic raiders is waiting for 5-10 people to stop fucking up.

Than farm keys to get gear you only need 50k dps overall to clear a 15. You can do that in 445 gear with the right class.

[Clozer]

Keep enrage on boss. Problem solved. And it wasn't even hard to solve. Like a 2s thinking.

So you want a timer on bosses but not the dungeon? What does that even do? 2s thinking btw.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

They need to allow timer pauses for dc and allow replacing players on quits other than that the system is fine. The only content with an actual bar and people want it removed like they did with mop rares. Cause it was harder before(it wasn't).

[FelPlague]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

This came up before, i will say it again.
No.
You can complete it right now and get the rewards, regardless of time.
but if they made it so you could ALSO upgrade the keys using such, that would be horrible.
"+15 stay till done"
Alright sounds decent
*Enter and they are barely geared enough for +5 and have just been afking then using time warp on every trash pack*
*8 hours later you finish the +15*


No, you say "If you can complete it, you get the rewards, regardless of time" this is how it is right now.
but it should NOT upgrade your key. you should not be told "hey it only took you 8 hours, but here is a key to go even higher!"

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Aye, that's good. But now you can't advance to +12

nor should you, you failed.
in raiding you dont have infinite time to down a boss, so you shouldnt in M+ either.

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I would be all for Mythic+ to have more interesting affixes, complex mechanics and smarter NPCs. I agree with you, it doesn't have to boil down to time.

Yes, lets reinvent the entire engine of the game, just so you can remove a timer from a mode, when all other modes have timers.
no, we dont need more complex mechanics in dungeons, and "smarter npcs" what the bloody heck does that even mean, do you mean island npcs? cause no, no please god no, those im ANYTHING serious would be horrid, cause they are smart yes, but i dont do dungeons to "pvp" i do dungeons to do PVE.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep enrage on boss. Problem solved. And it wasn't even hard to solve. Like a 2s thinking.

But if you have an enrage thats a timer, that cant be a thing!

- - - Updated - - -

Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.

0 deaths +5 to your key/key used
1 death, +4
2 deaths +3
3 deaths + 2
4-5 deaths +1
6-15 deaths +0
16-25 deaths -1

And so on. Once you start getting higher on number of deaths the more you lose.

1. "Oh someone died" *Everyone quits*
2. This does nothing to stop the "Alright we killed the pack, time to afk till we can hero on the next pack"
if there is NO PUNISHMENT for literally just AFKing until you can hero again, people will do it.
they will pull a group, hero, kill it, then go play hearthstone for abit or a match of hots versus AI.

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I've asked aotc players and they've admitted from an individual skill point that mythic+ is harder than mythic raiding.

Yeah nah i call BS on this, ive done a few +15.
mythic raiding is far harder.
but really it comes down to numbers, as a +15 and a +10 are the exact same, except higher numbers, so it comes to which has harder mechanics, X mythic boss, or Y M+ dungeon.
comes down to affixes aswell. but overall number wise, a mythic boss in the mid to end, is much more tight number wise then a M+15 is.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

This came up before, i will say it again.
No.
You can complete it right now and get the rewards, regardless of time.
but if they made it so you could ALSO upgrade the keys using such, that would be horrible.
"+15 stay till done"
Alright sounds decent
*Enter and they are barely geared enough for +5 and have just been afking then using time warp on every trash pack*
*8 hours later you finish the +15*


No, you say "If you can complete it, you get the rewards, regardless of time" this is how it is right now.
but it should NOT upgrade your key. you should not be told "hey it only took you 8 hours, but here is a key to go even higher!"

- - - Updated - - -



nor should you, you failed.
in raiding you dont have infinite time to down a boss, so you shouldnt in M+ either.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, lets reinvent the entire engine of the game, just so you can remove a timer from a mode, when all other modes have timers.
no, we dont need more complex mechanics in dungeons, and "smarter npcs" what the bloody heck does that even mean, do you mean island npcs? cause no, no please god no, those im ANYTHING serious would be horrid, cause they are smart yes, but i dont do dungeons to "pvp" i do dungeons to do PVE.

- - - Updated - - -



But if you have an enrage thats a timer, that cant be a thing!

- - - Updated - - -



1. "Oh someone died" *Everyone quits*
2. This does nothing to stop the "Alright we killed the pack, time to afk till we can hero on the next pack"
if there is NO PUNISHMENT for literally just AFKing until you can hero again, people will do it.
they will pull a group, hero, kill it, then go play hearthstone for abit or a match of hots versus AI.

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah nah i call BS on this, ive done a few +15.
mythic raiding is far harder.
but really it comes down to numbers, as a +15 and a +10 are the exact same, except higher numbers, so it comes to which has harder mechanics, X mythic boss, or Y M+ dungeon.
comes down to affixes aswell. but overall number wise, a mythic boss in the mid to end, is much more tight number wise then a M+15 is.

Mythic dungeons can go past 15 and require more individual skill but mythic raiding is about finding or sticking with 20 people long enough to kill a boss. It's not as much about skill. As it is about not wanting to kill the 5 people that can't do what they're suppose to. Mythic+ is pure skill but raiding is a lot more. Coordination and an ability to deal with people 2-3 fucking months despite how much they fuck up.

[FelPlague]

Mythic dungeons can go past 15 and require more individual skill but mythic raiding is about finding or sticking with 20 people long enough to kill a boss. It's not as much about skill. As it is about not wanting to kill the 5 people that can't do what they're suppose to. Mythic+ is pure skill but raiding is a lot more. Coordination and an ability to deal with people 2-3 fucking months despite how much they fuck up.

1. yes it can go past 15, but there is no point.
2. "requires more individual skill" yes while M+ since it has less people, you notice more if people are not pulling their weight, both VERY MUCH rely on individual skill, it is VERY easy for just 1 person to wipe the entire raid, on almost every boss fight here.
3. The bolded part... So its not about skill.... but about dealing with those 5 people who arnt skilled... so its about skill...
4. again you say "M+ is about skill, raiding is about coordination, and ability to deal with the people who fuck up" so... skill... the people who are not skilled enough, and being skilled...


literally you seem to have this weird superiority complex, both are about skill, just raiding since its in larger numbers, its easier to carry one or 2 bad players.