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  1. #181
    People act like when the timer runs out you get teleported from the dungeon and don't get loot. Mythic + without a timer does exist, it's called depleting your key.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelyron View Post
    Speedrunning has no place in an mmo, so yes.
    Timed =/= speedrun

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleansing Totem View Post
    How about just leave one of the most popular features they have added to the game as is?
    Even if it is the most popular feature, is it possible that would be because it is the absolute best and easiest way to gear? Nevermind being the only thing to do ingame after the weekly raid clear, assaults and visions are done.
    Last edited by Tronski; 2020-03-25 at 11:57 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    Remove the countdown.

    Add a timer.

    Upgrade the key according to the time you spent clearing. A fast clear = +3 to the key etc.


    All loot would be the same, only quicker upgrades for those clearing the lower faster so they get to the more challenging ones. This way no one really lose from getting together a group that isn't that good, the key holder will perhaps not get a +3, and might have to clear one extra M+ this week, but he still gets his loot.


    Perhaps add some cosmetic reward if you manage to push to a certain key level, let everyone start at +1 every week, then the top .. lets say 0.5% of M+ participants get a transmog set or some such.
    MORE rewarding rewards is what this game need, not useless epics we toss in the river.
    I could get on board with more cosmetic/non-power gain items from content in general, as many things in WoW feel mandatory because there's always a power gain to be had.

    However, timer versus countdown is semantics (even if I'm inferring what you intend to mean, M+ is already a timer), especially since you can still finish your key and get loot if the timer expires in M+. It's akin to going back to the CM model, with bronze/silver/gold, but the time requirements for upgrading/rewards are still exactly the same regardless if time is counting up or down.

    Maybe you're inferring if you complete the key regardless of time the level of the keystone will go up? If so, as I've stated in previous posts, that'll just make toxic group behavior insanely worse. Regardless of how quickly you clear a M+, everyone has their personal metric of whether something is time effective for them, which is why people will leave or rage-quit keys when they feel it's not worth the time to spend slogging through a key even when you still get a chest at the end regardless of completion time. If slogging through keys became the new mandatory standard, the minute your pugs see that the first couple trash packs are taking extremely long or the group's healing/tanking/DPS is really struggling, chances are they are going to bail and you lost your key anyways. Group invite requirements will skyrocket, as well as meta-only class/spec picks will become even more mandatory.

    Going back to my original response in this post, WoW already has enough mandatory content for power gains, and you're indirectly asking for making M+ take longer for the average person and be a more arduous activity. The timer is a metric for many things, one of which is whether your group's gear/skill is good enough to be doing the content, as well as stopping players from feeling like they need to punish themselves in an infinite dungeon slog by giving you a hard progression wall. For solo content, sure, punish yourself to your heart's content (I've done my fair share of soloing old content bosses for 30-40min before they reached the 11 level 'ezmode' criterion)... but as group content, you're just asking for trouble and a more negative group environment.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    No, I don't agree. I like the oldschool style of dungeons. If you complete the dungeon by any means, you should get a reward. If you find it worthwhile to take 5 hours to do a dungeon, then that's your choice. Make achievements and other non gear based rewards require a certain time threshold if you must. But I find dungeons without a timer much more enjoyable.
    You still get loot for failing the key. I just ran a siege 11 and failed it. Tank thought it was a good idea to pull the entire last room before the third boss, wiping us. We also had a 470 warrior doing 25k for the entire run and dying on every boss. 3 people got loot.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleansing Totem View Post
    You still get loot for failing the key. I just ran a siege 11 and failed it. Tank thought it was a good idea to pull the entire last room before the third boss, wiping us. We also had a 470 warrior doing 25k for the entire run and dying on every boss. 3 people got loot.
    Aye, that's good. But now you can't advance to +12

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Aye, that's good. But now you can't advance to +12
    With your own key. You are free to go look for another key. You also now have a +10 to try and push again if you want. I don't really see a problem.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald The Mcdonald View Post
    The loot isn't the only reward you receive however. You also obtain an upgrade or a downgrade to your key. It is not fair for group B to spend 5-10 hours in a dungeon and have there key still upgrade and get loot while group A gains though same rewards. There has to be a balance to these things. No one is saying Group B can't get better and gain that competitive edge but if they're actively choosing not to pursue that edge then they shouldn't gain the same exact rewards as people who are.
    Why not?

    Is speedrunning mythic raids yielding greater rewards these days? Or do you get the same rewards for spending a whole week as Method would be getting for clearing in 2 hours?

    Literally no difference.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Why not?

    Is speedrunning mythic raids yielding greater rewards these days? Or do you get the same rewards for spending a whole week as Method would be getting for clearing in 2 hours?

    Literally no difference.
    I’d love for m+ to have the same difficulty curve as mythic raiding for this comparison alone. Sure, let’s do away with timers just to have something only 1% of the game’s population can do. Great alternative.
    “Well, we plowed thru this +10, but this last boss is kicking our ass. Guess we’re gonna have to spend the next 4-5 days in here for about 2-5 hours a go to try and kill it.”
    Yep, nothing wrong with that perspective you just tried to use.

    On topic, no, I don’t think timers should disappear from m+. It’s literally part of the design of the system. Also, as others have said, if you want to spend hours trying to clear your +2-whatever then you are free to do so. Just don’t expect an upgrade.
    People keep asking, “ but what’s wrong with...?” What’s wrong with it is that it is not how the system works, and what those people want is something completely different. They then go on to state they want something based off of skill while ignoring that clearing m+ in the time limit is skill based. It’s the most hypocritical approach to an argument that I’ve seen in a while.

  9. #189
    I think it's good the way it is because the timer is what adds the difficulty to it. I don't think you can compare mythic raiding with dungeons because the difficulty of raids have always been to coordinate a large group of people - and in more recent expansions, many bosses are designed in a way where if 1 or 2 people dies then it's RIP. With a 5-man dungeon you still get gear right now even if you finish a key out of time, but your key wont upgrade if you do - which seems fair.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I’d love for m+ to have the same difficulty curve as mythic raiding for this comparison alone. Sure, let’s do away with timers just to have something only 1% of the game’s population can do. Great alternative.
    “Well, we plowed thru this +10, but this last boss is kicking our ass. Guess we’re gonna have to spend the next 4-5 days in here for about 2-5 hours a go to try and kill it.”
    Yep, nothing wrong with that perspective you just tried to use.
    Except your comparison doesn't really hold up. You compare a +10 key to mythic raiding. That would be more in the range of +20 and above which are the keys most of the active mythic raiders in my guild run.

    How does participation look in this bracket? probably more like that of mythic raiding participation would be my guess. so yeah.

    Also a boss designed to be killed by 5 people obviously wouldn't be comparable a boss designed to be killed by 20.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I think it's good the way it is because the timer is what adds the difficulty to it. I don't think you can compare mythic raiding with dungeons because the difficulty of raids have always been to coordinate a large group of people - and in more recent expansions, many bosses are designed in a way where if 1 or 2 people dies then it's RIP. With a 5-man dungeon you still get gear right now even if you finish a key out of time, but your key wont upgrade if you do - which seems fair.
    But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

    Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

    Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?
    I would be all for Mythic+ to have more interesting affixes, complex mechanics and smarter NPCs. I agree with you, it doesn't have to boil down to time.

  13. #193
    run multiple tanks/healers, use bloodlust every pull and trivialize everything to solve not a single problem but insecure people won't see a timer. Yay good idea.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    run multiple tanks/healers, use bloodlust every pull and trivialize everything to solve not a single problem but insecure people won't see a timer. Yay good idea.
    I mean, that was an extreme mock scenario. The point isn't to always do this. What I'm proposing can also help 1/1/3 groups

  15. #195
    What you're asking for is essentially what Torghast in Shadowlands is. If it's well recieved, it's quite possible that it gets evolved to a permanent gameplay feature with scaling loot, much like challenge mode (which largely only had the transmog set rewards) got changed into mythic+, with item rewards reflecting difficulty and your progression, allowing for alternative ways to get competetive gear besides raiding and to some degree pvp.

    Mythic+ is like the first new major gameplay concept during the last 15 years that has actually been successful, and a lot of players have it as their main content now. From a business perspective it would be plain stupidity to remove it or completely change it at this point. But that's not to say there can't be other gameplay concepts added to the game.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

    Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?
    I hear you and I think there is room for this, but whenever it happens like Mechagon in BFA or Kara in Legion it does become a joke after a while. Just thinking back to 'hard' dungeons in the past whether it's MGT in TBC or Halls of Reflection in WotLK - those all seem like a joke now even compared to a key as low as a +15. Personally I like it when we get a dungeon (or two) with each patch and that dungeon does have a harder difficulty, because at least initially it provides that challenge in the form of a non timed 5-man dungeon.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    run multiple tanks/healers, use bloodlust every pull and trivialize everything to solve not a single problem but insecure people won't see a timer. Yay good idea.
    Keep enrage on boss. Problem solved. And it wasn't even hard to solve. Like a 2s thinking.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-03-26 at 04:53 PM.

  18. #198
    Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.

    0 deaths +5 to your key/key used
    1 death, +4
    2 deaths +3
    3 deaths + 2
    4-5 deaths +1
    6-15 deaths +0
    16-25 deaths -1

    And so on. Once you start getting higher on number of deaths the more you lose.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsamane View Post
    Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.
    Great recipe to make pugs real toxic real fast...

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

    Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?
    A 15+ key takes skill otherwise everyone would be doing it. I've asked aotc players and they've admitted from an individual skill point that mythic+ is harder than mythic raiding. The only difficulty behind mythic raiders is waiting for 5-10 people to stop fucking up.

    Than farm keys to get gear you only need 50k dps overall to clear a 15. You can do that in 445 gear with the right class.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-03-26 at 05:26 PM.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

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