Mythic+ without timer

[Moonsorrow]

The point is, M+ with good players that know what to do is one of the best additions to the game and one of the things that kept me playing during Legion and BFA.

However with bad players it is a pain in the ass... Especially in low keys when people stop taking it seriously the run can go south very quickly. The "death bracket" is somewhere between +8 and +11. Above usually the players are experienced and below the scaling and the affixes don't hit hard enough.

The first group usually times the run and the second group will always have problems even without timers...

[Rhila]

I think what most of the no timer still upgrade people don't understand is that if this was implemented, a 10 or a 15 would either have to be buffed significantly to compensate, or the goalpost will just get moved higher. 25 would become the new 20 etc. the end result is the numbers get pointlessly inflated, and people would end up in way above their head in dungeons they have no business in.

At the end of the day, if the timer is too hard for you, there are plenty of other things in the game that are more your speed, whether you want to admit it or not. There's nothing wrong with being bad, but being in denial and demanding changes that fundamentally screw the game is how we got to the shitshow that is BFA in the first place.
Simply put, these dungeons are tuned, designed, and structured with the mythic plus timer in mind. Some of them were (are) poorly implemented in that regard, but still designed with that in mind.

Mythic plus's intent to is to be alternate path to gear and progression from raiding although the audience for both is very overlapping. If it is to maintain that core premise as the raiding alternative, the difficulty would have to be brought up tremendously (an idea I would be fine with) to match an endgame mythic end-raid boss (most of which take between 250-500 pulls for a first kill and even at times 1000 for some folks) and we would be back at square one with the pissbabies mad they cant even do 5 mans now. At the end of the day, this is a stay in your lane, or build your own road kind of issue.

Not wanting to do deal with timers doesnt make you bad. I do my one run a week, but i hate the contant "go go go" pressure that seems to permeate every aspect of this game now, raiding? rush for enrage timer, dungeons? rush to get your key in time, bloody island expeditions? better rush your on a timer.

With a dwindling game population, and decreased numbers of mythic guilds, maybe we should start asking whats fun and enjoyable for players than worrying that everything be ultra competitive and difficult all the time?
Im willing to bet if you asked a lot of players, i doubt most enjoy the timers in dungeons outside of the ultra competitive 20+ runners, i imagine most players would enjoy a more chilled out relaxed experience in 5 mans where they can get their weekly chest or gear up alts for raiding.
If need be give extra drops to timed runes, transmogs, mounts etc, or just cap non timed keys at 20 or something like that.

I mean the most fun ive ever had doing 5 mans was probably tbc or wotlk, even though they were a lot easier than a 15+ today. Because they gave good rewards in a chilled out environment you could do with anyone.

[Fayolynn]

Im willing to bet if you asked a lot of players, i doubt most enjoy the timers in dungeons outside of the ultra competitive 20+ runners,

Ask how many players intentionally spend more time then necessary clearing a dungeon and I bet the answer is close to zero. Players are always going to clear dungeons as fast as their skill level allows them to.

i imagine most players would enjoy a more chilled out relaxed experience in 5 mans where they can get their weekly chest or gear up alts for raiding.

The current system already allows this, even with the timer in place.

[trapmaster]

If mythic+ was a thing without timer but has punishing and harsher death penalty that could affect you reward chest, I’m up for it, but personal attack time like GOG GO GO PANIC RUSH STFU GO U BETTER NOT FUCK THIS UP YO = just...No...

[Fayolynn]

If mythic+ was a thing without timer but has punishing and harsher death penalty that could affect you reward chest, I’m up for it, but personal attack time like GOG GO GO PANIC RUSH STFU GO U BETTER NOT FUCK THIS UP YO = just...No...

In an environment when you can take your time, CC everything possible and stack cool downs player deaths should be virtually non existent outside of 1 shot mechanics.

[david0925]

In an environment when you can take your time, CC everything possible and stack cool downs player deaths should be virtually non existent outside of 1 shot mechanics.

Yes, essentially the crowd that wants timer removed is so they can do exactly that. I'm fine with that as long as you actually have other resources you need to manage, like limiting the number of CDs you can use. If a dungeon originally had a 30 minute timer, then you can only use a 3 minute CD 10 times on top of having a 3 minute C on them. CC something would immediately put the group in combat, much like how it was pre-Cataclysm.

Knowledge of the instance with timer as a limiting factor is how m+ is structured, if you want to remove it, fine, but something of equal risk should be in place if you want the dungeons to scale up indefinitely.

[Trend]

I honestly don't get all the hostility towards the idea I think its a great one I hate the setup of M+ and the damn timer speed runs shouldnt be a thing in mmorpgs imo, at least on an ''official'' capacity.

I think the "hate" is due to the fact that the Legion/BfA keystone system is a very specific thing that is keeping a lot of players playing. It is impossible to implement new reward structures without affecting the perception of how worthwhile other activities are. The gear rewards carrot has always been central to every decent MMO ever and all the suggestions so far surfaced for a timer-less keystone progression would ruin one of the most successful parts of the game because it would either demolish the difficulty/reward balance or it would be so worthless nobody would do it anyway.

If you don't like mythic+ you have raids and you have PvP and you have the option to play at a more casual level without doing real endgame content. If none of those options work for you, this probably isn't the right game for you and ruining what other people enjoy a lot does not make much sense.

*edit* Also, I do not think you are an authority on what should or should not be in an MMO. Not having time constraints does not really make sense. Whether it's a matter of a boss having a hard or soft enrage or the reality that a fight can only go so long before you run out of tools (like mana for heals) to survive. These are very typical MMO concepts.

[Jinpachi]

Group wipes on 1st pull.
DPS flames.
Tank leaves.

Yes, no timer will certainly make it less toxic. Groups arent toxic cause there is a timer, groups are toxic cause people are toxic.

People are toxic because other people are stupid and don't know how to play their roles/classes properly in endgame content. L2P is a thing, like it or not.

[luciano]

If something happens a lot to you maybe think what's the common denominator there... and tell those guys early you want to skip something. You sound like one of the "toxic leavers" they talk about in the other thread.

It's obviously the other players' fault for not reading the dude's mind and skipping mobs they didn't know he wanted to skip.

[Garymorilix]

It's obviously the other players' fault for not reading the dude's mind and skipping mobs they didn't know he wanted to skip.

Skips are basically standard issue now with Awakened.

I don't even think I did a single fancy skip this season yet, granted I only do +15 keys.
I just don't wanna give other players a chance to fuck up with a shroud or whatever.

So if your tank knows where to pull those mini bosses and you know how to not die while killing them then the timer is very easy to beat.
The rest of the dungeon is the same as it was for the past 1.5 years. If you did not have time to learn the typical route of Atal'dazar at this point then you simply do not belong, sorry.

[Twdft]

The rest of the dungeon is the same as it was for the past 1.5 years. If you did not have time to learn the typical route of Atal'dazar at this point then you simply do not belong, sorry.

AD is probably the worst example for typical route. Drop down to Rezan or go "third" boss first...

[crusadernero]

For all the praise I have always heard of TBC dungeons being the best versions of wow dungeons, this is basically what OP is asking for, just on an increasingly difficulty scale (which should be even more welcomed?)

I honestly don't get all the hostility towards the idea I think its a great one I hate the setup of M+ and the damn timer speed runs shouldnt be a thing in mmorpgs imo, at least on an ''official'' capacity.

Fully agree on this. BC HC did require alot of a grp, especially certain dungeons. What was good about this kind of dungeon is that it gives everyone a fair chance to clear the dungeon and obtain the same loot.

Right now, with the timer, it caters to rushing through, skipping mobs and especially stack certain classes before others.

People that wanted to rush through BC HC could do that. THey could easily try to mass pull and AOE alot.

People that wanted to take theyre time, coordinate and CC each pull, maybe chat between bossfights while clearing trash could do that.

In the end both grps of people get the same loot.

If they removed the timer we would more or less go back to this kind of gameplay. same dungeon, same difficulty, different approach.

I guess m+ timer is here to stay but it certainly aint for me. I clear the dungeons while leveling and do a few m+ here and there, but im not doing dungeons like I have done in every previous xpac since wow launched. Dungeons for me is over in wow and I spend more time in raids these days lol

[Garymorilix]

AD is probably the worst example for typical route. Drop down to Rezan or go "third" boss first...

Why is it hard?

As i said, you had 1.5 years to figure out where to go.

People still can't do the Freehold skip to the first boss even tho Blizz put an obelisk right there.

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Fully agree on this. BC HC did require alot of a grp, especially certain dungeons. What was good about this kind of dungeon is that it gives everyone a fair chance to clear the dungeon and obtain the same loot.

Right now, with the timer, it caters to rushing through, skipping mobs and especially stack certain classes before others.

People that wanted to rush through BC HC could do that. THey could easily try to mass pull and AOE alot.

People that wanted to take theyre time, coordinate and CC each pull, maybe chat between bossfights while clearing trash could do that.

In the end both grps of people get the same loot.

If they removed the timer we would more or less go back to this kind of gameplay. same dungeon, same difficulty, different approach.

I guess m+ timer is here to stay but it certainly aint for me. I clear the dungeons while leveling and do a few m+ here and there, but im not doing dungeons like I have done in every previous xpac since wow launched. Dungeons for me is over in wow and I spend more time in raids these days lol

This works exactly like this today.

The only difference in loot is that your key will deplete. Everything else is the same.
What's the issue? You don't get rewarded for failing? Okay.

[Fayolynn]

Fully agree on this. BC HC did require alot of a grp, especially certain dungeons. What was good about this kind of dungeon is that it gives everyone a fair chance to clear the dungeon and obtain the same loot.

Everyone still has a "fair chance" to clear the dungeon and obtain the same loot under the mythic+ system.

Right now, with the timer, it caters to rushing through, skipping mobs and especially stack certain classes before others.

Rushing through and skipping the mobs you don't need is the challenge. If you don't like it then mythic+ isn't for you. Stacking classes only matters once you go past a +15 which doesn't really matter because that's when the loot rewards stop getting better. Its also weird you bring up class stacking in dungeons when you say lower in this post that you spend most of your time raiding these days. Raiding has been plagued with class stacking for the longest time.

People that wanted to rush through BC HC could do that. THey could easily try to mass pull and AOE alot.

People that wanted to take theyre time, coordinate and CC each pull, maybe chat between bossfights while clearing trash could do that.

In the end both grps of people get the same loot.

If they removed the timer we would more or less go back to this kind of gameplay. same dungeon, same difficulty, different approach.

This form of game play currently exists with mythic+ dungeons. Ignore the timer, CC when you want to, take breaks when you want to, chat when you want to and still get a chance for the same loot as a team that beats the timer.

[Trend]

If they removed the timer we would more or less go back to this kind of gameplay. same dungeon, same difficulty, different approach.

No, it wouldn't go back to being the same at all. Doing normal/heroic/mythic would be the same as what your previous experience was. You can simply ignore mythic+ and have exactly what you want. Having the scaling rewards of mythic+ without a timer is nothing like what has ever been in the game.

im not doing dungeons like I have done in every previous xpac since wow launched. Dungeons for me is over in wow

This does not make any sense at all. Nothing is preventing you from running normal/heroic/mythic so there is zero reason you should be affected. Also, I know a lot of people play the game in strange ways, but I find it odd that at any point in time any raider would have still been running non-mythic+ dungeons a year and a half into an expansion on anything other than a new or never-geared alt. What would the point of that be?

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There are just as many people that do not like m+ as there are that do, who are you to say that if you don't enjoy the current m+ system that ''this isn't the right game for you" (especially right before you say that I'm the one who thinks he is some authority lol?).

100% sure you don't want to have an honest conversation because of the way you intentionally clip words off statements that contradict the point you want to make. Pathetic.

Neither of us have authoritative survey numbers or hard participation data. However, a reasonable person would acknowledge that Blizzard does have the participation metrics and the fact they continue to have mythic+ and continue to invest more into dungeon design indicates having mythic+ is more popular than not having mythic+.

Personally, I think the whines about removing mythic+ or otherwise bastardizing it to ruin it are due to babies not being able to keep up with decent players. Any of you could just ignore mythic+ and play dungeons just like you have in the past, but that does not work for some reason related to personal insecurities or something.

[Freighter]

Neither of us have authoritative survey numbers or hard participation data. However, a reasonable person would acknowledge that Blizzard does have the participation metrics and the fact they continue to have mythic+ and continue to invest more into dungeon design indicates having mythic+ is more popular than not having mythic+.

I only play mythic plus because it's the only challenging and rewarding content outside of raids. I don't raid. What other option do I have than mythic plus?

[crusadernero]

No, it wouldn't go back to being the same at all. Doing normal/heroic/mythic would be the same as what your previous experience was. You can simply ignore mythic+ and have exactly what you want. Having the scaling rewards of mythic+ without a timer is nothing like what has ever been in the game.



This does not make any sense at all. Nothing is preventing you from running normal/heroic/mythic so there is zero reason you should be affected. Also, I know a lot of people play the game in strange ways, but I find it odd that at any point in time any raider would have still been running non-mythic+ dungeons a year and a half into an expansion on anything other than a new or never-geared alt. What would the point of that be?

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100% sure you don't want to have an honest conversation because of the way you intentionally clip words off statements that contradict the point you want to make. Pathetic.

Neither of us have authoritative survey numbers or hard participation data. However, a reasonable person would acknowledge that Blizzard does have the participation metrics and the fact they continue to have mythic+ and continue to invest more into dungeon design indicates having mythic+ is more popular than not having mythic+.

Personally, I think the whines about removing mythic+ or otherwise bastardizing it to ruin it are due to babies not being able to keep up with decent players. Any of you could just ignore mythic+ and play dungeons just like you have in the past, but that does not work for some reason related to personal insecurities or something.

What are you even on about? "Personal insecurities", "babies". Why come with this? You started off your post to the point. You brought up arguments against what others wrote and explained why. Then you end up with that, your whole reply crashed. You had something going then you had to end it all with some kind of personal attack against whoever dont agree with you.

On topic:
I only pointed out that how dungeons were presented before and how it was a part of the gearing & gameplay of wow suited me better. Today, if you dont do high m+ keys you cant get gear(and most importantly today in wow iLevel), you gotta push decent m+ level, lower m+ dont even matter. So you again get into a raid.

Now into the important part: With how the levels of m+(key levels) works today and the timer, it creates a whole new way on how people interact with dungeons. Normal, HC & several m+ levels dont even matter anymore. Everyone is flushed into higher lvl dungeon play where interaction between players more often than not turns into shit because not only is it required to clear the dungeon, but you should also make it on time.

That in order leaves alot of people frustrated(Not "personal insecurites" or being "babies"). People realise that normal, HC & m+ dungeons dont even matter anymore besides high keys and suddenly the pool of players wanting to participate in dungeons overall goes down. Why even bother? Theres WQs, raids, LFR++.

Mythic+ dungeons is a concept made for higher tier of players and it has devalued everything else in wow dungeons. Raids are doing just fine with 4 difficulties(LFR is needed to justify the resources spendt on making raids), but it would be in severe trouble if mythic got a timer and better gear the higher key.


In the end, mythic dungeons were a result of wanting to push wow into esports. PvP failed there and theres only really world first race that works really well, but thats not something Blizzard controls.

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I only play mythic plus because it's the only challenging and rewarding content outside of raids. I don't raid. What other option do I have than mythic plus?

This is a fair point. I had some great fun with friends in Legion pushing m+ keys. That sadly faded away when they stopped playing and since then I never really got into the groove of it again.

[Twdft]

Today, if you dont do high m+ keys you cant get gear(and most importantly today in wow iLevel), you gotta push decent m+ level, lower m+ dont even matter. So you again get into a raid.

You do not need to run any mythic+ at all to raid.

World content easily gets you to 430 which is enough to raid normal, normal drops 445+ so you can raid heroic, heroic drops 460+ so you can raid mythic. Just ignore m+ if you don't like it, it only speeds up getting gear but you can get enough without it to raid.

[froschhure]

The point is, M+ with good players that know what to do is one of the best additions to the game and one of the things that kept me playing during Legion and BFA.

However with bad players it is a pain in the ass... Especially in low keys when people stop taking it seriously the run can go south very quickly. The "death bracket" is somewhere between +8 and +11. Above usually the players are experienced and below the scaling and the affixes don't hit hard enough.

The first group usually times the run and the second group will always have problems even without timers...

ughhh char1ß

[Sinx]

Characters ranked at 1,5 million on raider.io has done 10+ keys in 8.3, which is a more than sufficient level to help gearing for normal and heroic raids. About 2,3 million characters have done a mythic+ this season in total. Stop pretending m+ is only interesting for high end players. Pugs are toxic no matter what activity you run. LFR is a complete disaster, raid pugs mostly blow up cause ppl emo leave after a wipe and pvp pugs are probably the most toxic of them all. Pugs are the problem, not the mythic+ concept. Get to know some people and do content with them instead of bashing a concept because your pug sucked. M+ is the only new good gameplay concept they've come up during these 15-16 years, and it actually provides challenging content, with gear rewards reflecting it, which you can actually do without having to dedicate half your week to raids. A lot of us have enough with one job.