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  1. #21
    They could do no timer easily by making a wipe kill your key. They could disable the release button for the whole dungeon like a raid encounter, and only make it available when the whole group is dead. This would allow for resurrections if at least one person survives if they have the ability to rez (it would also give shaman, paladin, monk, druid and priest dps extra utility). Once the group wipes, it would result in the equivalent of the time expiring.

    I'd much rather M+ feel like a dungeon crawl rather than a nascar diablo race.
    Last edited by oland138; 2020-03-24 at 08:46 PM.

  2. #22
    Honestly sounds boring, unless you basically make it into a 5man raid and give loot on each boss.

    You can never balance loot around it, if you could take 4 hours and repeat them every day.

  3. #23
    One way to do it is:

    1. implement an optional split screen / picture-in-picture into WoW.
    2. create a new game mode: racing
    3. 2 teams of 5 players race each other to complete the dungeon first. They can watch each other's progress on the split screen.
    4. there is no timer, its just whomever is fastest.

    Then you could do something bigger like have 4 or 8 teams of 5 players race each other, and you can monitor them on an optional picture-in-picture while you progress.

    You could have notifications and alerts when a team downs a boss. You could have a little pop up infographic showing the current progress of all 8 teams.

    Top 3 teams win gold, silver, bronze and associated rewards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  4. #24
    Technically, it's just a smokescreen, a vague attempt to turn it into an esport.

  5. #25
    +1 as long as it drops no loot or any reward of any type, yeah go ahead

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    There is no mythic+ without timers, so that's out.
    But there should be a way to upgrade keys without having to finish keys "on time."
    Something to reward finishing dungeons even out of time would be great, like a currency that you can use a LOT of to upgrade keys.
    I would much prefer to do a 20 out of time than a 17 in time, but the difference is without the timer, there can be no competition. People would be doing absurd things like switching talents every pull or even changing from tank to DPS etc.
    The problem with this idea is that people would "create" keys that they aren't ready for, that they literally cannot complete. Using your example: If a group can't time a +17, they most likely cannot complete a +20 at all due to bosses being too challenging. Specially on any tyrannical week, but even on fortified weeks a lot of groups wouldn't be able to kill bosses in a +20.

    The current M+ progression system works quite well. It allows players and groups to work their way up key levels based on their skill and gear level. It also mostly blocks people from key levels they have no business even attempting (obviously boosts for gold is still a thing).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Maybe 1 chest for no timer, two chests for timer?

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can get replacements in TW.
    You get a chest even if you fail the timer

    You used to be able to get replacements in m+ but blizzard decided to fuck with the system

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    To continue your strawman arguement here, this means that all content that doesn't have a timer associated with it requires 0 skill. Mythic raids? Easy.
    Almost every raid boss has an enrage timer or soft enrage timer. They *are* timed.

    They developers had to do this to prevent people from bringing all healers or having people sit around to have cooldowns up for every pull. It's not a perfect solution but it does address a real problem.

  9. #29
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    Timer is a kind of berserk timer so you dont just run around with double tank or some other total cheese bullshit. If ya want to waste keys, find some friends or guildies that dont quit on the first tiny hick up. Your own fault if you just pug 24/7.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  10. #30
    In theory, yes. In reality, no.

    Like, I'm not gonna go into a random +122 key, take every mob individually while keeping 5 other mobs perma CC-ed for 10 minutes (because it will take 10 minutes to kill a single mob), spend an overall amount of like 7 hours in there and in the end be rewarded with... maybe a heroic piece of loot, more likely a pathetically pathetic amount of AP.

    CC'ing whole packs and spending 5 minutes per pack was bearable in TBC 10 years ago when no one knew how to play a video game. 10 years later I just don't have that patience anymore.

    Now if we're talking about random low ass +10 keys but without timers... I really don't see the point in that. If you can't beat the dungeon in 20 minutes or without wiping 37 times in 5 minutes, maybe... just maybe... you shouldn't be there, doesn't matter if you could eventually best it in 59 minutes with a wipe counter of 133. I don't see what problem a timer removal would solve other than boosting people through content that they otherwise wouldn't be able to best.

  11. #31
    Nope, they would just turn into extremely tedious slugests with groups spending 5 hours in one dungeon trying to cheese +30 boss fights.

    Honestly, removing timers from M+ has to be the last thing I want for this game, and I want a lot. Please, please don't let this happen, I actually enjoy M+.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    They could do no timer easily by making a wipe kill your key. They could disable the release button for the whole dungeon like a raid encounter, and only make it available when the whole group is dead. This would allow for resurrections if at least one person survives if they have the ability to rez (it would also give shaman, paladin, monk, druid and priest dps extra utility). Once the group wipes, it would result in the equivalent of the time expiring.

    I'd much rather M+ feel like a dungeon crawl rather than a nascar diablo race.
    Such a change would be insanely more toxic and meta-driven than what we have now. Simplest way to describe how the system would be terrible, as this even happened recently on a +18 key I did this week: what if the tank/healer (or in some cases a DPS) DC's or gets a nasty lag spike? Chances are you are going to wipe, and under that system your key is done due to no fault of the group. It's infinitely worse with pugs, especially on lower keys as they're plagued with people who all want to do their own things versus the group effort mentality. With the current system, even with a DC/lag spike leading to a death or wipe, it doesn't mean you're going to automatically fail your key. If it was solo content, having a death counter/limit would definitely be a feasible mechanic though.

    In general, the system is as it is because it's a group activity, a puggable one at that. The timer has many functions, one of them ensuring that there's a metric by which you can determine if completing a key is feasible for you and your group. Irony is, the "go! go! go!" mentality is far more prevalent in the lower keys than the higher ones from my experience, especially when you know everyone in the group. I've timed +18/+19 keys after taking a minute to talk to my group or wait for CDs, even had a DPS go take a few minutes bio-break while we 4-man some stuff for a while. Guildies love when I tank keys because at the start I tend to go "Hmm... yeah, here's kind of what I want to do? <links MDT map> It's close enough maybe... whatever, we'll just figure it out as we go. Just let me know when your CDs are coming up and we can pull some larger packs." There's no pressure and the timer doesn't matter to me, and we still time almost every key even if we're carrying someone. Here's the point: the timer only seems to be an issue for people whom it matters the most and are fixated on the timer itself. Chances are if you and your group just play the dungeon out ignoring the timer for the most part, you're going to find yourself in M+ keystones that are appropriate for your gear/skill.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  13. #33
    Maybe a +20 without timer gives the same rewards as a +15 with timer? There needs to be a balance where no choice is the obvious better one, or else everyone will do the most efficient choice, as always.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

    I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.
    you can deplete keys and still get loot. you don't need to beat the timer. removing the timer wouldn't change much. "elitist" ppl would try clear asap no matter if there is a timer or not. stop thinking just because you change or remove a feature all those people would just disappear.
    the key to have fun in wow is making friends and doing stuff with them. there are also a lot of communities with likeminded people. if you pug your experience will suffer. if it is raids, m+ or pretty much anything else in almost any game out there.
    reason = most people are shitbags.

  15. #35
    We had proving grounds, even the 30 wave achievements were to hard for many players, while others felt a sleep for going over 300+ minutes/waves.

    Some contents are there for a challenge and some are there for more casual gaming activitys.

    Calling players "toxic" who actually want to beat the content made explicit for a challenge is the main issue. There are so many difficulty modes, but for some reason players allways ask for changes for things they dont even play/enjoy right now.

    You get constructive criticism for PVP from high rated players.
    You get constructive criticism for PVE from high end players.
    And you get ridiculous demands from players who dont do neither and just want to see the world burn.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Beace View Post
    The problem with this idea is that people would "create" keys that they aren't ready for, that they literally cannot complete. Using your example: If a group can't time a +17, they most likely cannot complete a +20 at all due to bosses being too challenging. Specially on any tyrannical week, but even on fortified weeks a lot of groups wouldn't be able to kill bosses in a +20.

    The current M+ progression system works quite well. It allows players and groups to work their way up key levels based on their skill and gear level. It also mostly blocks people from key levels they have no business even attempting (obviously boosts for gold is still a thing).
    I don't agree with that in the slightest. There are a variety of reasons a group can't upgrade a 17.
    A lot of a weeks a single wipe is the death of the timer.

    Imagine if that was how raiding works?

    That's all I am suggesting.
    Allow players to do the difficulty they want.
    If they can't complete it, that's their mistake.

    The current M+ progression system works well, but not great, simply because a single offline or selfish player can force the other 4 to have to go backwards in progression.

    If there was an incentive for FINISHING keys, the system would be excellent, and I think the best incentive would be "well at least we can work on upgrading our key eventually."
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Death count. Key advances only with 0 deaths.
    That'll make it worse. I didn't think it was possible to make m+ worse but your idea has done it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    We had proving grounds, even the 30 wave achievements were to hard for many players, while others felt a sleep for going over 300+ minutes/waves.

    Some contents are there for a challenge and some are there for more casual gaming activitys.

    Calling players "toxic" who actually want to beat the content made explicit for a challenge is the main issue. There are so many difficulty modes, but for some reason players allways ask for changes for things they dont even play/enjoy right now.

    You get constructive criticism for PVP from high rated players.
    You get constructive criticism for PVE from high end players.
    And you get ridiculous demands from players who dont do neither and just want to see the world burn.
    What I call toxic is mostly

    1) People leaving mid instance without even saying anything
    2) People insulting and treating other players in a demeaing way

    I rarely see people stick around and do stuff like
    a) Suggest a solution to the current problem
    b) State that he/she will stay for a few wipes before leaving

    Having a high RIO score, ilvl or DPS isn't a free pass to treat people like they are below you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm all for

    "If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

    You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Such a change would be insanely more toxic and meta-driven than what we have now. Simplest way to describe how the system would be terrible, as this even happened recently on a +18 key I did this week: what if the tank/healer (or in some cases a DPS) DC's or gets a nasty lag spike? Chances are you are going to wipe, and under that system your key is done due to no fault of the group. It's infinitely worse with pugs, especially on lower keys as they're plagued with people who all want to do their own things versus the group effort mentality. With the current system, even with a DC/lag spike leading to a death or wipe, it doesn't mean you're going to automatically fail your key. If it was solo content, having a death counter/limit would definitely be a feasible mechanic though.

    In general, the system is as it is because it's a group activity, a puggable one at that. The timer has many functions, one of them ensuring that there's a metric by which you can determine if completing a key is feasible for you and your group. Irony is, the "go! go! go!" mentality is far more prevalent in the lower keys than the higher ones from my experience, especially when you know everyone in the group. I've timed +18/+19 keys after taking a minute to talk to my group or wait for CDs, even had a DPS go take a few minutes bio-break while we 4-man some stuff for a while. Guildies love when I tank keys because at the start I tend to go "Hmm... yeah, here's kind of what I want to do? <links MDT map> It's close enough maybe... whatever, we'll just figure it out as we go. Just let me know when your CDs are coming up and we can pull some larger packs." There's no pressure and the timer doesn't matter to me, and we still time almost every key even if we're carrying someone. Here's the point: the timer only seems to be an issue for people whom it matters the most and are fixated on the timer itself. Chances are if you and your group just play the dungeon out ignoring the timer for the most part, you're going to find yourself in M+ keystones that are appropriate for your gear/skill.

    My contention with timed M+ has nothing to do with player toxicity and everything to do with game play. Also, like I said, it could open the door for more class utility - having a divine intervention would be amazing if wipes decided whether you failed the key or not. I'd much rather go into a dungeon and be more concerned about dealing with combat mechanics than with what the UI is tracking.

    And the challenge would still be there. If upgrading a key relied solely on execution rather than speed and execution, the limit on how high you could push a key would be much higher.

  20. #40
    mythic without timer exists. Just ignore the damn timer.

    If oyu don't like the timer ignore it. simple as that. MANY people really like the timer and the added challenge it brings.

    If it where gone it would just be CC everything and kill one mob at a time. The Timer IS the challenge of mythic+ not the added other stuff. You can get everything down in a normal instance if you have the time to the point where the tank gets oneshot.

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