Mythic+ without timer

[david0925]

Id go as far as saying i think tid be even more enjoyable without the timer, as the timer kinda drives home the point of how ineffective you play and how much times your waisting whenever a pull don't go your way.

I also think the trash porgress bar aswell as the boss cehckboxes to the right is killing the immersion of the dungeon.
A dungeon shouldnt feel like your shopping grocerys checking boxes for each item. It should be an adventure, this min maxing of routes and trash pulls should only be something that become a thing once youve done a dungeon many times and know it like your own livingroom.

I also think loot should drop from bosses, not from a chest at the end of the dungeon and DEFINETLY NOT from a weekly chest in your capital hub.

And fuck it, this is gonna be a rant!

Bring back wipe running, spawning in the dungeon and being able to release and be right back in action if youve just reached a spawnpoint is just rediculus. It doesnt need to be the superlong wipe run of Razorfen downs as alliance, but at least some distance. Wow became a success for a reason, lets bring back more features from its roots.

Yes, you are ranting and trying to attribute everything WoW did in the past as a contributing factor to its success, when that doesn't have to be the case. WoW is majorly successful because it unlocked the MMO genre for the casual crowd, compared to the older ones like EQ. Riding off the WC3 is also a huge factor. It continues to make the game more casual and catchup mechanics more accessible, but it obviously made people who are "too casual for EQ but too HC for current WoW" uncomfortable.

Back on the topic, it's also ok to go on a charge-base system in place of a timer for alternative solutions, but it will be equally, if not more, toxic.
-You can do this in terms of deaths, X deaths and you fail the timer. This turns the game into a complete crawl and the more careful crowd will definitely be clashing with the ones that want to go faster. Regardless of a timer existing, some people don't want to spend 3 hours in a dungeon just because they can
-You can do this in terms of charges: you get 1 BL, 5 3-minute CDs, etc, per run, so sure, you can drag it on, but you can't get additional big CDs so you can CD through every single trivial pack (which would also imply you have no place of being there). The issue will still remain.

This is different for raiding, because raiding has a capped difficulty, and the fact that encounters completely reset when you wipe. You can't just pull a boss, spawn 20 mobs, kill 5, and only need to deal with 15 the next time you pull. So using raiding as an analogy for failed key upgrade, is not good.

[oland138]

I could be down with something like this. Instead of it being time, you had X amount of deaths. The higher the key, the less amount of deaths you get. Based on how many deaths were unused would determine how much the key upgrades.

Yeah actually, maybe they could just track how many times your group has released - that would retain some value for classes who can rez.

[Argorwal]

If I could redo the mythic+ system it would be like this.

First, scaling is changed to make a +10 the same as a current +15. That would be ~16% per key rather than 10%
Second, the 0/1, 0/2, and 0/3 are 5 item level upgrades you can do maybe every week or twice a week.
3rd there are no keys. You can just select which one you want.
4th there is no weekly chest.

Key Level / Affix / Timed Reward / Untimed Reward
+2 / Fort/Tyr / 435 / 430
+3 / 440 / 435
+4 / Trash Affix / 445 / 440
+5 / 450 / 445
+6 / global affix / 455 / 450
+7 460 455
+8 / Seasonal affix / 460 & 0/1 / 460
+9 / 460 & 0/2 / 460
+10 / 460 & 0/3 / 460
+ 11 and up are for epeen.

This way for everything up to heroic you can more easily choose to ignore the timer. No key depletion or upgrades.

Also with no weekly chest, all loot is on the bosses loot table and you need to actually time/clear a specific dungeon for that loot.

I would have the end of dungeon chest drop 1 item from each bosses loot table as well so its more like a normal dungeon.

[agentsi]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

That is already in place. What you're asking for, is ALREADY in the game. Rendering this entire thread a waste.

The community is toxic because thats just the internet in 2020. People are toxic in every single game you can play via the internet. FFXIV, GW2, Destiny, freaking temtem. Hell, I've seen kids playing Roblox and be just as toxic as folks in WoW. And that game doesn't really even have a clear objective.

Stop worrying about toxic people, and surround yourself with guildies/friends to avoid them. If you have to pug, the moment they turn toxic, block them, put the on ignore, w/e. It is not worth even 1 ounce of a repsonse from you or your time. I started doing this in Overwatch when I was trying to hit Diamond, it helped so much. You can't do anything about them, just have to block and move on.

[Tradu]

Id go as far as saying i think tid be even more enjoyable without the timer, as the timer kinda drives home the point of how ineffective you play and how much times your waisting whenever a pull don't go your way.

I also think the trash porgress bar aswell as the boss cehckboxes to the right is killing the immersion of the dungeon.
A dungeon shouldnt feel like your shopping grocerys checking boxes for each item. It should be an adventure, this min maxing of routes and trash pulls should only be something that become a thing once youve done a dungeon many times and know it like your own livingroom.

I also think loot should drop from bosses, not from a chest at the end of the dungeon and DEFINETLY NOT from a weekly chest in your capital hub.

And fuck it, this is gonna be a rant!

Bring back wipe running, spawning in the dungeon and being able to release and be right back in action if youve just reached a spawnpoint is just rediculus. It doesnt need to be the superlong wipe run of Razorfen downs as alliance, but at least some distance. Wow became a success for a reason, lets bring back more features from its roots.

It became a success by being more accessible and having better QoL than the alternatives. Making QoL worse is not the way to fix the game. Just look at Classic, all the boomers are starting to realize that intentionally making the game worse because "that's how it was in 2004" is stupid(an example being spell batching)

[Asrialol]

Id go as far as saying i think tid be even more enjoyable without the timer, as the timer kinda drives home the point of how ineffective you play and how much times your waisting whenever a pull don't go your way.

I also think the trash porgress bar aswell as the boss cehckboxes to the right is killing the immersion of the dungeon.
A dungeon shouldnt feel like your shopping grocerys checking boxes for each item. It should be an adventure, this min maxing of routes and trash pulls should only be something that become a thing once youve done a dungeon many times and know it like your own livingroom.

I also think loot should drop from bosses, not from a chest at the end of the dungeon and DEFINETLY NOT from a weekly chest in your capital hub.

And fuck it, this is gonna be a rant!

Bring back wipe running, spawning in the dungeon and being able to release and be right back in action if youve just reached a spawnpoint is just rediculus. It doesnt need to be the superlong wipe run of Razorfen downs as alliance, but at least some distance. Wow became a success for a reason, lets bring back more features from its roots.

M+ isn't here to give you immersion. If you want immersion, you do the normal mythic.

I don't get why people seem to compare m+ to normal dungeons. They're not the same thing at all. The timer is there to stay, without it there is no valid way to measure effectiveness. It takes a lot more planning and knowledge of mechanics to do a +20 key on a timer instead of just staying in there for hours.

It's harsh, but easy - don't like the timer? Don't do the content.

[Tradu]

If I could redo the mythic+ system it would be like this.

First, scaling is changed to make a +10 the same as a current +15. That would be ~16% per key rather than 10%
Second, the 0/1, 0/2, and 0/3 are 5 item level upgrades you can do maybe every week or twice a week.
3rd there are no keys. You can just select which one you want.
4th there is no weekly chest.

Key Level / Affix / Timed Reward / Untimed Reward
+2 / Fort/Tyr / 435 / 430
+3 / 440 / 435
+4 / Trash Affix / 445 / 440
+5 / 450 / 445
+6 / global affix / 455 / 450
+7 460 455
+8 / Seasonal affix / 460 & 0/1 / 460
+9 / 460 & 0/2 / 460
+10 / 460 & 0/3 / 460
+ 11 and up are for epeen.

This way for everything up to heroic you can more easily choose to ignore the timer. No key depletion or upgrades.

Also with no weekly chest, all loot is on the bosses loot table and you need to actually time/clear a specific dungeon for that loot.

I would have the end of dungeon chest drop 1 item from each bosses loot table as well so its more like a normal dungeon.

The issue with that is that people want M+ to be an alternative to raiding, so it needs to somehow give loot equivalent to mythic raiding(even if M+ is not as difficult). What I'd like to see is having raids drop tiered loot again, like in HFC. So let's take heroic Ny'alotha as an example.
Wrathion, Skitra, Maut drop 460
Xanesh, Hivemind, Shad'har, Drest drop 465
Ra-den, Vexiona, Il'gynoth drop 470
Carapace, N'zoth drop 475
Then for mythic you just increase those numbers by 15. That way heroic Carapace and N'zoth drop the same ilevel as the free mythic bosses. Now you can also tie M+ more directly to raiding as well, because you have a more granular way of defining rewards. Instead of the current weekly chest, I'd like to see it work like Visions, where you can earn each reward "tier" once per week, and if you already earned the reward for the tier you just completed, you "steal" the next highest still available reward. There would need to be a limit of some kind to how much the reward can drop, let's say it doesn't drop further than 10 or 15 below the base reward of the tier.
So to again use examples from the current tier(with the changes above):
+10 drops 465
+13 drops 470
+16 drops 475
+19 drops 480
+21 drops 485
+23 drops 490
This ties the reward/difficulty ratio much closer to the raid, because you no longer have the entire raid dropping the same ilevel. The raid dropping the same ilevel from start to finish(more or less) just says that apparently doing a +15 is the same difficulty as mythic Il'gynoth, which is obviously absurd. Having more granularity, even if not the exact numbers in the example, allows Blizzard to at least approximate similar difficulty, even if M+ is never really going to be the same difficulty as mythic raiding.

[Argorwal]

My main comment is that having a source of mythic quality gear with no lockout isn’t a good idea.

And I would LOVE if this weekly lootbox system was burned alive.

Drops should come from boss’s, not magic chests that show up in your city every week for no reason.

[froschhure]

Yes, but with scaling difficulty. The dungeon gets harder and harder, but you don't have to clear it in a time frame.

It shouldn*t make a difference if you have high Skill/Gear and blaze through the content or if it took you 3 hours to clear with alternative strats and comps. At the end, you both completed the Mythic+ and should both get the upgrade

But the hard thing is to do this within a time frame and if you want to clear a +22 key without timer pressure you can just write something like "Going weekly".

What i can read through your thread is instead of raiding being divided into 4 typed it should just be raid+.

because touching m+ to make it more like a raid, is not the solution here.

in raid+ you can do all these things you described with no timer.

[Chromell]

You want big gear then do big content

I'm not asking for TW to drop M+ 15 gear, I'm just pointing out the differences between the comparison. Pay attention to the comment I replied to.

[crakerjack]

My main comment is that having a source of mythic quality gear with no lockout isn’t a good idea.

And I would LOVE if this weekly lootbox system was burned alive.

Drops should come from boss’s, not magic chests that show up in your city every week for no reason.

Atleast they're tweaking the chest come Shadowlands. Instead of getting one option, there will be 5 pieces that drop and you'll get to pick which piece you want the most.

[Argorwal]

Atleast they're tweaking the chest come Shadowlands. Instead of getting one option, there will be 5 pieces that drop and you'll get to pick which piece you want the most.

To be honest I’m not sure that change is a good idea either.

It makes the weekly chest even more important, and gearing that much faster when you have a decent chance every week, due to multiple choices, of getting a great upgrade on top of loot drops from actual content.

[chiddie]

So you are saying there is a hilariously small amount of people who are interested in running m+ without timer?

Yes, IF no timer rewards are far worse than timed rewards.

You don’t run the same dungeon countless times because it’s fun, you do it for the reward in the end.

[Ghostile]

Yes, IF no timer rewards are far worse than timed rewards.

You don’t run the same dungeon countless times because it’s fun, you do it for the reward in the end.

Not every activity requires a participation trophy for people who can't bother challenging themselves.

[chiddie]

The issue with that is that people want M+ to be an alternative to raiding, so it needs to somehow give loot equivalent to mythic raiding(even if M+ is not as difficult). What I'd like to see is having raids drop tiered loot again, like in HFC. So let's take heroic Ny'alotha as an example.
Wrathion, Skitra, Maut drop 460
Xanesh, Hivemind, Shad'har, Drest drop 465
Ra-den, Vexiona, Il'gynoth drop 470
Carapace, N'zoth drop 475
Then for mythic you just increase those numbers by 15. That way heroic Carapace and N'zoth drop the same ilevel as the free mythic bosses. Now you can also tie M+ more directly to raiding as well, because you have a more granular way of defining rewards. Instead of the current weekly chest, I'd like to see it work like Visions, where you can earn each reward "tier" once per week, and if you already earned the reward for the tier you just completed, you "steal" the next highest still available reward. There would need to be a limit of some kind to how much the reward can drop, let's say it doesn't drop further than 10 or 15 below the base reward of the tier.
So to again use examples from the current tier(with the changes above):
+10 drops 465
+13 drops 470
+16 drops 475
+19 drops 480
+21 drops 485
+23 drops 490
This ties the reward/difficulty ratio much closer to the raid, because you no longer have the entire raid dropping the same ilevel. The raid dropping the same ilevel from start to finish(more or less) just says that apparently doing a +15 is the same difficulty as mythic Il'gynoth, which is obviously absurd. Having more granularity, even if not the exact numbers in the example, allows Blizzard to at least approximate similar difficulty, even if M+ is never really going to be the same difficulty as mythic raiding.

I can see your point but the question is always the same. Is it a timer (be it a real clock timer like M+ or implicit timer like Horrible Visions) the ONLY way to make things more difficult or is it the easiest way dev side to make things more difficult?

I’m not sure the first one is the correct answer.

[Touchthereaper]

More requests for participation trophy. /sigh

[chiddie]

Not every activity requires a participation trophy for people who can't bother challenging themselves.

A challenging activity does not have to require a timer to be challenging.

There are plenty of rpgs out there that are challenging and don’t have timers.

[Twdft]

Yes, IF no timer rewards are far worse than timed rewards.

You don’t run the same dungeon countless times because it’s fun, you do it for the reward in the end.

You already get 3 pieces of loot for timing the dungeon vs 2 items when depleting, 50% more.

People can ignore the timer if they want, just 1 out of 5 has to actually time dungeons to upgrade it once in a while. I have friends who take me up to +17 so I get a high key which I then play with my guild friends for the chest. Timed 13s with my guild which seems to be our skillcap but we go up to 16s with my key even if it takes twice the timer. Next week I still have a 15 to waste.

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

A challenging activity does not have to require a timer to be challenging.

There are plenty of rpgs out there that are challenging and don’t have timers.

This isn't just a normal rpg though where you're the only player. This is an MMORPG where millions play this game. It isn't fair to players who actively complete challenges the way as intended, to get the same rewards as someone who doesn't do it as designed.

[Mardux]

A challenging activity does not have to require a timer to be challenging.

There are plenty of rpgs out there that are challenging and don’t have timers.

And there are plenty of things to do in WoW that dont have timers as well. No need to add more when it isnt needed.

- - - Updated - - -

You already get 3 pieces of loot for timing the dungeon vs 2 items when depleting, 50% more.

People can ignore the timer if they want, just 1 out of 5 has to actually time dungeons to upgrade it once in a while. I have friends who take me up to +17 so I get a high key which I then play with my guild friends for the chest. Timed 13s with my guild which seems to be our skillcap but we go up to 16s with my key even if it takes twice the timer. Next week I still have a 15 to waste.

They said far worse... not slightly worse.