Mythic+ without timer

[LordVargK]

The loot isn't the only reward you receive however. You also obtain an upgrade or a downgrade to your key. It is not fair for group B to spend 5-10 hours in a dungeon and have there key still upgrade and get loot while group A gains though same rewards. There has to be a balance to these things. No one is saying Group B can't get better and gain that competitive edge but if they're actively choosing not to pursue that edge then they shouldn't gain the same exact rewards as people who are.

If a group needs BL for every trash pack, then they won't necessarily complete a higher difficulty dungeon. Even if you CC every but one mob, you will not succed if mobs hit the tank too hard. And doing dungeon will take days. I don't think your objection is really realistic.

[Erous]

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

You mean, go back to pre-nerf Burning Crusade heroics that the community cried and moaned over. Not saying I disagree with you fwiw.

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

If a group needs BL for every trash pack, then they won't necessarily complete a higher difficulty dungeon. Even if you CC every but one mob, you will not succed if mobs hit the tank too hard. And doing dungeon will take days. I don't think your objection is really realistic.

That's what people are arguing about however. They want to do m+ without timers so they can do those harder keys by just lusting and CCing every pull and in turn they are asking for an upgrade on their key and the same rewards as people who do it on time and as intended. My argument is that they shouldn't get the same rewards as people who do it as intended whether it be an ilvl in gear or a downgrade in the key level for a timeless run. THAT is my objection.

Do you agree that Group B who completes it in 5 hours shouldn't get the same exact rewards as Group A who timed their run in 30 minutes?

[LordVargK]

That's what people are arguing about however. They want to do m+ without timers so they can do those harder keys by just lusting and CCing every pull and in turn they are asking for an upgrade on their key and the same rewards as people who do it on time and as intended. My argument is that they shouldn't get the same rewards as people who do it as intended whether it be an ilvl in gear or a downgrade in the key level for a timeless run. THAT is my objection.

Do you agree that Group B who completes it in 5 hours shouldn't get the same exact rewards as Group A who timed their run in 30 minutes?

No, I don't agree. I like the oldschool style of dungeons. If you complete the dungeon by any means, you should get a reward. If you find it worthwhile to take 5 hours to do a dungeon, then that's your choice. Make achievements and other non gear based rewards require a certain time threshold if you must. But I find dungeons without a timer much more enjoyable.

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

No, I don't agree. I like the oldschool style of dungeons. If you complete the dungeon by any means, you should get a reward. If you find it worthwhile to take 5 hours to do a dungeon, then that's your choice. Make achievements and other non gear based rewards require a certain time threshold if you must. But I find dungeons without a timer much more enjoyable.

That's not what I asked. I asked should group B who spent 5 hours in a m+ get the SAME EXACT rewards as Group A who timed it in 30 minutes? Regardless Group B goes get loot from the end chest but it's not the exact reward as Group A. Group A would get more loot in their end chest and an upgrade to their key while Group B will get less loot in their chest and a downgrade to their key. No one is saying you can't spend 5 hours in a dungeon and not get rewarded but you shouldn't get the same rewards as someone who did the piece of content "as intended".

[LordVargK]

That's not what I asked. I asked should group B who spent 5 hours in a m+ get the SAME EXACT rewards as Group A who timed it in 30 minutes? Regardless Group B goes get loot from the end chest but it's not the exact reward as Group A. Group A would get more loot in their end chest and an upgrade to their key while Group B will get less loot in their chest and a downgrade to their key. No one is saying you can't spend 5 hours in a dungeon and not get rewarded but you shouldn't get the same rewards as someone who did the piece of content "as intended".

Group B should get all the same game relevant rewards as Group A. Like gear, rep, currency, etc. The only thing A should get more is "bragging rights", so Achievements.

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

Group B should get all the same game relevant rewards as Group A. Like gear, rep, currency, etc. The only thing A should get more is "bragging rights", so Achievements.

That would mean you would want Group B to also get the same amount of loot as Group A for timing it AND an upgrade to Group B's key just for completing in 5 hours?

[DarkBlade6]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

You already get THE reward just for completing the dungeon - you get a better reward if you complete it fast.
So are you saying that you want more reward just for completing the dungeon ?
If that's the case, I think its just another case of people who want more for less ... keep crying, Blizzard always cater to cry babies.

[LordVargK]

That would mean you would want Group B to also get the same amount of loot as Group A for timing it AND an upgrade to Group B's key just for completing in 5 hours?

Yes. Group A does not need more loot, because they already get more loot, since they can do multiple runs in the time Group B needs to do one.
And If group B needs 5 hours to do let's say a +15 dungeon, then they will need 6 or more for a +16 one. Or they may not make it at all. So this is not a problem for me. If someone is invested enough to stay 6 hours in one dungeon for one or two random items, then by all means, let them have it. And let them upgrade their key; the scaling is extreme enough that at some point even completing a dungeon will be impossible. Because bosses can't be CCed. So if someone is able to kill all bosses on a certain difficulty, then let them upgrade their key. But I'm convinced that most players will not be able to kill bosses if they can't kill trash without CC or BL. So this problem solves itself.

[Zka]

Death count. Key advances only with 0 deaths.

Good idea, first people to die will be flamed to death, that will make the run so much more fun!

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

Yes. Group A does not need more loot, because they already get more loot, since they can do multiple runs in the time Group B needs to do one.
And If group B needs 5 hours to do let's say a +15 dungeon, then they will need 6 or more for a +16 one. Or they may not make it at all. So this is not a problem for me. If someone is invested enough to stay 6 hours in one dungeon for one or two random items, then by all means, let them have it. And let them upgrade their key; the scaling is extreme enough that at some point even completing a dungeon will be impossible. Because bosses can't be CCed. So if someone is able to kill all bosses on a certain difficulty, then let them upgrade their key. But I'm convinced that most players will not be able to kill bosses if they can't kill trash without CC or BL. So this problem solves itself.

Multiple problems with your logic. One if Group A worked themselves into a position in which they can do multiple keys then that's what they deserve. They are more prepared than Group B by this. You saying that they don't need more loot simply because they are more prepared and worked hard to be where they are is truly baffling to say the least. If Group B is taking that amount of time completing a 15 they either need to an easier key or gear themselves more so. If someone is invested to do 6 hours in one dungeon alone as you stated then we can also argue in that 6 hours they can do a lot more other content to gear themselves up. This includes easier keys, raids or even visions with 1 or two mask. Two: Upgrading their key shouldn't even be in the cards because it is a timed run. You don't reward players for doing things that are not intended by the design of the content. The reward you get in itself is the 2 pieces of loot you get at the end, compared to the three or so a timed group would get. And you do realize that as stated by this forum page, people can just run two tanks and three healers effectively out lasting most of the encounters, killing off a spec role (Dps) and they would get rewarded the same amount as a team who did it as intended? That's not okay. You shouldn't get a gold star for completing something that wasn't requested. If my college professor asked me to do homework that was due tomorrow and it takes me 2 days for no important reason whatsoever, should I get full credit or partial credit?

[Ragnarohk]

That's what people are arguing about however. They want to do m+ without timers so they can do those harder keys by just lusting and CCing every pull and in turn they are asking for an upgrade on their key and the same rewards as people who do it on time and as intended. My argument is that they shouldn't get the same rewards as people who do it as intended whether it be an ilvl in gear or a downgrade in the key level for a timeless run. THAT is my objection.

Do you agree that Group B who completes it in 5 hours shouldn't get the same exact rewards as Group A who timed their run in 30 minutes?

The thing is. By time time Group A finishes, Group B would have cleared 3 additional instances. The time you take to get there is still an advantage. Group A will probably hit a wall way faster than group B.

- - - Updated - - -

You already get THE reward just for completing the dungeon - you get a better reward if you complete it fast.
So are you saying that you want more reward just for completing the dungeon ?
If that's the case, I think its just another case of people who want more for less ... keep crying, Blizzard always cater to cry babies.

It's the ability to keep on going that I'm asking for. Get your keys upgraded even if it took you longer.

Time can be counted for competitive play. Leaderboards can be kept. Global tournaments will use time.

But giving the option for timeless Mythic+ would be something positive for the regular playerbase (my opinion).

[Noxina]

Remove the countdown.

Add a timer.

Upgrade the key according to the time you spent clearing. A fast clear = +3 to the key etc.


All loot would be the same, only quicker upgrades for those clearing the lower faster so they get to the more challenging ones. This way no one really lose from getting together a group that isn't that good, the key holder will perhaps not get a +3, and might have to clear one extra M+ this week, but he still gets his loot.


Perhaps add some cosmetic reward if you manage to push to a certain key level, let everyone start at +1 every week, then the top .. lets say 0.5% of M+ participants get a transmog set or some such.
MORE rewarding rewards is what this game need, not useless epics we toss in the river.

[Cleansing Totem]

imagine that dungeon dropping 510 itlv gear.

ye you would CC those mobs all day long

imo its time to go back to no timers , rewards from each boss times.

mythic + popularity is falling down with each month.

M+ is never not going to be in an expansion now. Thankfully so as it's incredibly popular. Go play classic if you can't complete a timer and need easy dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

Remove the countdown.

Add a timer.

Upgrade the key according to the time you spent clearing. A fast clear = +3 to the key etc.


All loot would be the same, only quicker upgrades for those clearing the lower faster so they get to the more challenging ones. This way no one really lose from getting together a group that isn't that good, the key holder will perhaps not get a +3, and might have to clear one extra M+ this week, but he still gets his loot.


Perhaps add some cosmetic reward if you manage to push to a certain key level, let everyone start at +1 every week, then the top .. lets say 0.5% of M+ participants get a transmog set or some such.
MORE rewarding rewards is what this game need, not useless epics we toss in the river.

How about just leave one of the most popular features they have added to the game as is?

[Tronski]

If you failed the timer then you failed to beat the current level of difficulty. Why should your key be upgraded? The majority of mythic+ difficulty comes from rushing to beat the timer. Not needing to rush means you can CC mobs and wait for cooldowns to make the more challenging pulls a joke. You talk about wanting to overcome challenges but are advocating to make the game mode easier.

If you don't enjoy a game mode, then it's not for you. Just find something else to do. I don't enjoy PvP, I'm bad at it and it raises my adrenaline to crazy levels. Knowing when to I interrupt healers, when to cc, which player to focus fire first is just not something I enjoy. I would love the seasonal mounts but I will never be able to earn them on my own. I just stay away from PvP these days instead of advocating that blizzard take away the challenge from PvP to suit me.

You are completely right. I don't enjoy mythic+, which sadly is the most important aspect of gearing and thus a huge part of the game, which in turn is why I have barely logged in since Classic launched.

You speak about PvP as that, or any other aspect of the game, is a viable alternative in gearing for raiding compared to what M+ guarantees once a week. Even PvPers gear through M+. Visions help somewhat, but guess what, they are also timed .

It's exactly because M+ is such a core aspect of the game it would be nice to play it like normal dungeons, yes, with Cc and smart play to compensate for gear, skill and knowledge.

Exactly how would that hurt you? You'd still be able to exclude us muppets from your timed groups by our scores.

[Cleansing Totem]

Speedrunning has no place in an mmo, so yes.

Clearly it does.

[Tronski]

How about just leave one of the most popular features they have added to the game as is?

Even if it is the most popular feature, is it possible that would be because it is the absolute best and easiest way to gear? Nevermind being the only thing to do ingame after the weekly raid clear, assaults and visions are done.

[exochaft]

Remove the countdown.

Add a timer.

Upgrade the key according to the time you spent clearing. A fast clear = +3 to the key etc.


All loot would be the same, only quicker upgrades for those clearing the lower faster so they get to the more challenging ones. This way no one really lose from getting together a group that isn't that good, the key holder will perhaps not get a +3, and might have to clear one extra M+ this week, but he still gets his loot.


Perhaps add some cosmetic reward if you manage to push to a certain key level, let everyone start at +1 every week, then the top .. lets say 0.5% of M+ participants get a transmog set or some such.
MORE rewarding rewards is what this game need, not useless epics we toss in the river.

I could get on board with more cosmetic/non-power gain items from content in general, as many things in WoW feel mandatory because there's always a power gain to be had.

However, timer versus countdown is semantics (even if I'm inferring what you intend to mean, M+ is already a timer), especially since you can still finish your key and get loot if the timer expires in M+. It's akin to going back to the CM model, with bronze/silver/gold, but the time requirements for upgrading/rewards are still exactly the same regardless if time is counting up or down.

Maybe you're inferring if you complete the key regardless of time the level of the keystone will go up? If so, as I've stated in previous posts, that'll just make toxic group behavior insanely worse. Regardless of how quickly you clear a M+, everyone has their personal metric of whether something is time effective for them, which is why people will leave or rage-quit keys when they feel it's not worth the time to spend slogging through a key even when you still get a chest at the end regardless of completion time. If slogging through keys became the new mandatory standard, the minute your pugs see that the first couple trash packs are taking extremely long or the group's healing/tanking/DPS is really struggling, chances are they are going to bail and you lost your key anyways. Group invite requirements will skyrocket, as well as meta-only class/spec picks will become even more mandatory.

Going back to my original response in this post, WoW already has enough mandatory content for power gains, and you're indirectly asking for making M+ take longer for the average person and be a more arduous activity. The timer is a metric for many things, one of which is whether your group's gear/skill is good enough to be doing the content, as well as stopping players from feeling like they need to punish themselves in an infinite dungeon slog by giving you a hard progression wall. For solo content, sure, punish yourself to your heart's content (I've done my fair share of soloing old content bosses for 30-40min before they reached the 11 level 'ezmode' criterion)... but as group content, you're just asking for trouble and a more negative group environment.

[Cleansing Totem]

No, I don't agree. I like the oldschool style of dungeons. If you complete the dungeon by any means, you should get a reward. If you find it worthwhile to take 5 hours to do a dungeon, then that's your choice. Make achievements and other non gear based rewards require a certain time threshold if you must. But I find dungeons without a timer much more enjoyable.

You still get loot for failing the key. I just ran a siege 11 and failed it. Tank thought it was a good idea to pull the entire last room before the third boss, wiping us. We also had a 470 warrior doing 25k for the entire run and dying on every boss. 3 people got loot.

[Ragnarohk]

You still get loot for failing the key. I just ran a siege 11 and failed it. Tank thought it was a good idea to pull the entire last room before the third boss, wiping us. We also had a 470 warrior doing 25k for the entire run and dying on every boss. 3 people got loot.

Aye, that's good. But now you can't advance to +12