Mythic+ without timer

[erifwodahs]

But people want a way to add extra difficulty to these without the timer element.

I don't want this myself (I like having the timer) but I'm just clarifying what people want because the standard mythic dungeon is not complying with that

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Yes and if they removed the timer they would need to increase the overall difficulty of the dungeon to compensate for it.

I do get it, but if it has same rewards it's like having a boss without enrage mechanics. Stack 8 healers and just do 15mins fight for the same loot. It would have to be different rewards/lowered rewards per key level. And again highest possible key done is not that far from what you can do in time because trash is not an issue except for something like Zul. It's bosses. You might be perfectly fine going through the dungeon, hitting triad in WM and there, if you can't kill that on timed m+ you won't kill it on not timed. You might go out, adjust talents and such but that won't push you much further. What I want to say, that you can get to they key where you won't make it in time but still will be able to finish it by doing a timer runs. Not to mention a problem, where all the good players are going to only m+ timed for better rewards, non timed keys would be saturated by ton of bad players even if there are some good players wanting for a challenge on pushing non timed keys while avoiding 32minutes timer.

[erifwodahs]

You just need to do the content which fits your skill level. If you cannot do a +15 then do a +10. If you cant do a +10 then do a +5.

The problem is that people don't want to do the challenging content but they still want (and expect) the rewards that the challenging content give.

The content of the game is not difficult unless your expectation make it so. A heroic raider shouldn't expect to get mythic gear.

That is annoying - "this is too hard for most players" then do a scale lower for God sake! WoW is so accommodating for different skill level players that it's unreal. It's like ppl wanting, that highest rewards should be reachable by the average player. Trust me, if it was, those same ppl would be complaining about not getting better rewards for doing that +1 extra later. Couldn't have put it better than you: The content of the game is not difficult unless your expectation make it so. A heroic raider shouldn't expect to get mythic gear. The game is as hard as you make it for yourself. Look at RS, people are killing bosses with lvl 8 chars where others struggle at 128. Is the boss too hard for 128s? or more effort is needed?

[Gatto]

Toxicity is indeed a problem, but on the other hand it is true that pushing m+ within the time limit is the goal of that specific game mode.

I think here the problem is not about m+ timer or toxicity, but about the game mode you want to play.

To make it simple, wow offers different game modalities, which are more or less accessible to a specific player/characters depends his:

- Ilvl ( gear, corruptions, etc... ).
- knowledge ( mechanics, exploits, class rotation and build, etc... ).
- skill ( the ability to play its character in a more or less efficient way, regardless the situation they are into ).

It has to be said that at some point of the game, in specific game modes, you will be required to have specific equipment and a certain ilvl, as well for skill and knowledge, but apart from those specific modalities the only use for your equipment would be to decrease the game difficulty or simply stomp the content.

I am going to make an example:

The normal raid drops ilvl 445, while the heroic one drops 460 ( leaving carapace and n'zoth apart ).
This means that you could achieve the whole heroic content by simply have 445/450 ilvl on your whole party, but many people and guilds manage to clear the heroic difficulty only after nerfs, with better equipment ( probably higher ilvl than the one dropped from the specific instance ) and so on.

Same goes for m+
A 15m+ drops ilvl 465, but many people aren't able to manage the difficulty even with 465+ ilvl on the whole team.

What I am trying to say is:

On the one hand, because of free items ( weekly chest, hc warfront, boosts, etc... ) many people find themselves completing content ( dungeons/raid ) without knowing how the whole stuff work and how should they play ( positioning, what to interrupt, boss mechanics, priorities, etc... ) simply because of their ilvl. And because of that you will be finding people playing randomly on 10+ keys and people, who expect those players to know their stuff, to lose their calm and leave ( not necessarily because of toxicity, because if somebody has 1 hour to play and want to push, and see that the party doesn't know what to do, well he simply leave and find another one. There's no interest for him to clear a key out of time. The fact he can't be replaced is one of the many flaws in blizzard system ).

On the other hand, the extra ilvl is not needed for the game mode they want to do. There is no point in having a ilvl 475 character if you do heroic raids and +10 keys, because the only thing you'll get is more players who play without thinking, on a difficulty which way under their ilvl.

That's why I think the problem isn't the m+ timer, but the fact that players pretend rewards in terms of ilvl, even if they will be using them in content which doesn't require them. Giving higher rewards for completing a dungeon not in time is not required, simply because you will be able to do it even with way lower ilvl.

I leave apart the PvP because it is a total mess ( this time not about class balance, but essences not available through pvp but mandatory for that mode, azerite traits and equipment not available through pvp, shroud of resolve pve farm, pve trinkets way too gamebroken), and because of blizzard choice not to put a ilvl 425 cap in any pvp game mode all the pvpers are now forced to take part in some pve content to play pvp, which is senseless ( any notable twitcher/youtuber pvper is also complaing about the actual situation ).

[Jazzhands]

You just need to do the content which fits your skill level. If you cannot do a +15 then do a +10. If you cant do a +10 then do a +5.

The problem is that people don't want to do the challenging content but they still want (and expect) the rewards that the challenging content give.

The content of the game is not difficult unless your expectation make it so. A heroic raider shouldn't expect to get mythic gear.

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The only change I personally would make is to no reduce the key level when you fail a key. But it wouldn't really make much of a change anything for me tbh.

I can kind of see this, but down ranking the key is a way of giving you both more practice in a slightly less harsh environment, and possibly more gear, which help you more in the long run in terms of progressing and getting better. But if you aren't interested in pushing and improving and just play for fun ect, not down ranking would be nice. Both ways have positives and negatives as usual.

[Jazzhands]

what purpose? they could just change it to be without a timer and ramp the difficulty of bosses up so they will wipe you if you suck at playing... and if you can't beat the bosses, you don't get any loot or progress... this would be better than what we have now...

wolcen didn't have a timer in the expeditions... you just couldn't progress if you couldn't beat the boss... that stopped people from progressing if they weren't good enough...



"chill runs" is codeword for "i dont know how to play the game" in 99.99% of the cases... every time i've tried to join that it's always a shitshow... last time was +10 freehold in necrotic... the tank pulled 2 packs at the start and then we wiped... he didn't clear necrotic... then he pulled again and we wiped again... still didn't clear necrotic... then tried again and same thing happened again and i just left...

another i was doing low keys on my mage, just wanted a chest for the week even if it wasn't a max one... "chill run" +8... the tank knew how to get rid of necrotic alright... he had this great idea he would divine shield or use of blessing of protection... every time we wiped because he didn't cancel them... i left...

Let's pretend I'm a streamer. "Alright guys, we're here in this +28 run, on pack number 6, we've been here for 2 hours now and Lust is up in 4 more minutes so we can get another pack done then it'll be another break while we wait for CDs." Or waiting on invis potions. Doesn't matter. One huge reason the timer is there is to prevent the abuse of our strongest tools and to keep runs down to normal times. It's a way to measure if you're actually ready to progress. It makes it a much more fun and interesting challenge for those who want it, because with out it you simply hit the above wall of waiting on CDs for any hard pack instead of planning and coordinating around Lust and invis timers and such.

Once again, if you don't like the timer, advertise the run as ignoring the timer and go. There's tons of you guys wanting this so it should fill pretty fast eh? It's there for people who want the challenge, and for those who don't you can simply ignore it, if you aren't interested in pushing hard content you don't need the gear from high end M+ anyways. And if you want to progress, play the game the way it's made, or find one that's more suited to your style instead of ruining the game for others.

And yes, Chill runs are often bad, because they're runs in which you aren't suppose to rage openly about people playing poorly, because that's what a lot of runs become, even low runs where people are simply trying to learn. I've had a lot go poorly but I've had plenty go just fine, some even 2/3 chests.

[Drusin]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

Yes, they would move from 'never doing them' to 'might consider doing them'

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

There's a minimum amount of toxicity we wow players like to have

[Jazzhands]

with my proposal it doesn't matter if you wait for CDs for packs... the boss would wipe you if you can't beat it and then you can't progress or get loot... in many cases the timer is irrelevant in many groups already now... i left a +15 wm because they couldn't beat the witches... if they can't beat the boss it doesn't matter if there is a timer on the dungeon or not since you won't complete it either way...

M+ would be significantly less interesting because trash becomes irrelevant, and it's clear it's meant to be a part of the run. And you won't know if you can beat the boss until you get to it, which means you have to clear trash, which means... doing what I said.

[Jazzhands]

it would be a lot more fun if you had to beat the boss to get loot and progress...

You... do. You won't beat a M+ without beating bosses.

[Jazzhands]

m+ is about beating the timer even if you beat the bosses... it's stupid... for mythic raid level gear the bosses should be harder to the point they're on equivalent difficulty to mythic raids... instead we have +15... which is faceroll boring, with most of the timer spent killing trash and doing stupid skips... and you get mythic raid level gear for it even if you don't time it... that wouldn't happen with my proposal either...

like junkyard... you don't even pull any of the trash before trixie and naeno... a stupid skip... you just go behind and pull them there... ignoring any of the trash... clear the trash before you can get to the boss you said... you just skip all the trash that's hard and select the trash that's easy for percent... mythic+ in a nutshell...

Irrelevant trash with incredibly difficult bosses is already a thing, called raiding. Homogenization is bad and having the high end content differ is a good thing.

[Loveliest]

At the start of Cata, dungeons were hard. You had to coordinate CCs (cause packs pulled immediately when mobs were CC-ed), had to actually do proper tactics, had implicit timers (for example if you couldn't kill big adds fast enough, they would spawn little dragons that would wipe you).
This led to a few things:
- some people just couldn't do them - I myself spent 2 hours in a dungeon with some guildies and they couldn't wrap their head around the Valiona boss; eventually had 2 of them leave to make room for other guildies so at least SOME could get some loot and points
- tank numbers in pugs declined - people didn't want to tank when you actually had to hold aggro, not break CC, know proper tactics, mark and coordinate CCs for your team and do so with pugs
- people started whining they were trying from morning to night to finish dungeons and couldn't; obviously not all, but a lot of them; a lot of people stopped playing altogether because they couldn't finish one bloody dungeon. It was pretty hard to carry people at the start, especially pugs

It's like this... if it's not the timer it's gonna be something else. I've yet to see here a "solution" to this timer thing that can avoid toxicity of other players. No matter what you choose, you'll always be subjected to stress and you'll always be judged. There's no such thing a stress-free solution.

[Kaver]

I do get it, but if it has same rewards it's like having a boss without enrage mechanics.

I agree. And therefore Blizzard would need to make bosses etc. harder if they removed the timer. So in the end the people who are complaining now would probably still complain.

[Kaver]

I can kind of see this, but down ranking the key is a way of giving you both more practice in a slightly less harsh environment, and possibly more gear, which help you more in the long run in terms of progressing and getting better. But if you aren't interested in pushing and improving and just play for fun ect, not down ranking would be nice. Both ways have positives and negatives as usual.

This is my point of view: If my group is doing a +21 key and fail it by 1 minute, then it would be nice if we could give it another try instead of having to do a +20 key first. For me the downgrading is just annoying because when I fail something I would like to give it another try straight away. Imagine if you had to go back a boss everytime you failed a boss in a mythic raid (I know it's not completely the same but still ).

However I do understand that there are pros and cons. This was just my point of view

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nope... i would be happy if they made them harder...

I believe you. But I think a lot of other people would complain because they are not really mad about the timer. They are mad because they want the best rewards in the game but they don't have the skillset to get them. And instead of getting better at the game they want welfare. I'm not talking about you

[erifwodahs]

nope... i would be happy if they made them harder...

It might very well be the case, but again, same rewards = something has to be harder. Hard bosses make time irrelevant, therefore, people who are saying that timer is preventing them from going further... wouldn't get too far. Trash is only relevant because of the danger it poses when you can't just do calm pulls/ perma cc then and so on. The only relevant thing would be a boss fight. Imagine mythic raid, m+ would be the same. It is true, that people who can't do +15 in time would be maybe able to do a +16 or +17. But that is it, the lack of throughput to get you trough 30minutes +15 would kill you on the first boss in +18. If you are near enrage timer on hc when you kill the boss, your healers would be oom and the raid dead even if mythic version did not have enrage. And it would give you worse rewards because it's not timed (imagine getting mythic quality loot for doing a boss with no enrage timer so you can bring 8 healers - would not happen)

[Jujudrood]

There's obviously a lot of interest in a "non-timed" mode.
It would be easy to implement as well, given that it wouldn't be adding much but rather just modifying and expanding.
The timer adds to the difficulty, yes, but it's not the only factor in terms of it.
No timer mode still has affixes and hp/damage modifiers in play, so with 2 of 3 things that contribute to difficulty, just modify rewards/advancement in accordance.

For rewards, fix it to a single item, regardless of outcome.
No chance at bonus items, just 1 if you finish, 0 if you don't.

Put a daily lockout on the key, so your timer is effectively "until next reset".
If you finish it, key grows by +1, if you don't key reduces by +1.
No chance at bonus rank ups for speed (maybe have a small chance if 0 deaths or something else to measure how well you did, but not necessary).

Keep them separate so it's Timed and Untimed, two diff options on keys with no crossover.
If you have a key with +5 timed and +10 untimed, they are their own silo, so you can't start the +10 as a timed run.

If you don't want to do timed, you don't have to and can still progress at your own pace.
If you realize that the above is very inefficient in terms of "loot per hour" and advancing keys, then run the timed ones just like you do today.

[erifwodahs]

There's obviously a lot of interest in a "non-timed" mode.
It would be easy to implement as well, given that it wouldn't be adding much but rather just modifying and expanding.
The timer adds to the difficulty, yes, but it's not the only factor in terms of it.
No timer mode still has affixes and hp/damage modifiers in play, so with 2 of 3 things that contribute to difficulty, just modify rewards/advancement in accordance.

For rewards, fix it to a single item, regardless of outcome.
No chance at bonus items, just 1 if you finish, 0 if you don't.

Put a daily lockout on the key, so your timer is effectively "until next reset".
If you finish it, key grows by +1, if you don't key reduces by +1.
No chance at bonus rank ups for speed (maybe have a small chance if 0 deaths or something else to measure how well you did, but not necessary).

Keep them separate so it's Timed and Untimed, two diff options on keys with no crossover.
If you have a key with +5 timed and +10 untimed, they are their own silo, so you can't start the +10 as a timed run.

If you don't want to do timed, you don't have to and can still progress at your own pace.
If you realize that the above is very inefficient in terms of "loot per hour" and advancing keys, then run the timed ones just like you do today.

This looks nice. I would say maybe decrease ilvl in non timed runs by -3 or -5 key levels so to get +14 timed reward you would have to do a +17 not timed and a third piece of loot only if no one died more than once. 0 deaths would give 4 loot in keys 18 and above. On the other hand I am convinced, that if you can do +17 tyra in reasonable time you should not have problems in completing +15 on time for those rewards in shorter time.

[david0925]

I'm still baffled by the fact that people think mass out of combat CC actually takes any kind of marginal coordination. Most of them have no CD, DR, and do not aggro. If anyone screw up? Just reapply it.

The "skillless" aoe and in-combat CC rotation actually takes way more coordination and have far more risk if someone screws up, because the tank is much more vulnerable to getting gibbed when the mobs are not controlled.

[david0925]

At the start of Cata, dungeons were hard. You had to coordinate CCs (cause packs pulled immediately when mobs were CC-ed), had to actually do proper tactics, had implicit timers (for example if you couldn't kill big adds fast enough, they would spawn little dragons that would wipe you).
This led to a few things:
- some people just couldn't do them - I myself spent 2 hours in a dungeon with some guildies and they couldn't wrap their head around the Valiona boss; eventually had 2 of them leave to make room for other guildies so at least SOME could get some loot and points
- tank numbers in pugs declined - people didn't want to tank when you actually had to hold aggro, not break CC, know proper tactics, mark and coordinate CCs for your team and do so with pugs
- people started whining they were trying from morning to night to finish dungeons and couldn't; obviously not all, but a lot of them; a lot of people stopped playing altogether because they couldn't finish one bloody dungeon. It was pretty hard to carry people at the start, especially pugs

It's like this... if it's not the timer it's gonna be something else. I've yet to see here a "solution" to this timer thing that can avoid toxicity of other players. No matter what you choose, you'll always be subjected to stress and you'll always be judged. There's no such thing a stress-free solution.

While I don't think Cataclysm heroics pre-nerf were really that hard, I do think that if people want a m+ without timer to be valid, the very very least is making hard CCs immediately put you in combat and aggro the packs again. Of course, the whiners is going to say that's a timer on its own as well.

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what keys are you talking about here? i haven't seen any situation where the tank gets gibbed easily unless it's a tank just taking necrotic stacks without clearing...

I'm talking about overpulling in general, nothing too specific, versus meticulously CCing over half of a single pack and then kill one at a time, because a lot of people seem to have the impression that "mindlessly" aoeing down things is easy compared to "coordinating" out of combat CCs, when people that are pushing the hardest keys easily have to take way more risks because, "gasp", a timer exist.

[MidnyteTV]

90% of the reason why I don't do mythic + is because of the timer. I don't like to be timed when I play WoW. So I haven never done very many keys. Just not my thing.

[badgersmashr]

I think what most of the no timer still upgrade people don't understand is that if this was implemented, a 10 or a 15 would either have to be buffed significantly to compensate, or the goalpost will just get moved higher. 25 would become the new 20 etc. the end result is the numbers get pointlessly inflated, and people would end up in way above their head in dungeons they have no business in.

At the end of the day, if the timer is too hard for you, there are plenty of other things in the game that are more your speed, whether you want to admit it or not. There's nothing wrong with being bad, but being in denial and demanding changes that fundamentally screw the game is how we got to the shitshow that is BFA in the first place.
Simply put, these dungeons are tuned, designed, and structured with the mythic plus timer in mind. Some of them were (are) poorly implemented in that regard, but still designed with that in mind.

Mythic plus's intent to is to be alternate path to gear and progression from raiding although the audience for both is very overlapping. If it is to maintain that core premise as the raiding alternative, the difficulty would have to be brought up tremendously (an idea I would be fine with) to match an endgame mythic end-raid boss (most of which take between 250-500 pulls for a first kill and even at times 1000 for some folks) and we would be back at square one with the pissbabies mad they cant even do 5 mans now. At the end of the day, this is a stay in your lane, or build your own road kind of issue.

[Twdft]

Just yesterday I had 3 people pull the same pack that's going to be skipped because they don't even know how to move without pulling. In 3 separate groups. 3 groups I left.

If something happens a lot to you maybe think what's the common denominator there... and tell those guys early you want to skip something. You sound like one of the "toxic leavers" they talk about in the other thread.