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  1. #321
    Mechagnome Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Stupid in the sense that he did something that was going to obviously get him banned, yes. Also, he wasn't banned because blizzard sucks...he did something he knew full well wasn't intentional. Kiting mobs so throughout the wing so that he can keep spell stealing a buff, a buff that was obviously not intended to be abused via Incanters. It wasn't common place to kit groups of mobs through entire wings of dungeons. People who exploit always love to call it being "Clever", but that doesn't make it not exploiting.

    If you want to talk about a legend, that blood dk who used to solo raids in their current Xpac by just playing his class, that's legend. Someone who had to resort to the kind of stuff that mage did aren't legends in my book.
    Yep. That DK, Mione, is legendary. They did the content when it was relatively to date (either current or one expansion back) without relying on bugs, exploits or other such 'cheats'. Cheating isn't legendary, it's stupid and childish when the game doesnt allow cheating (Console games that allow cheats are expressedly ALLOWING it).

    The mage, using exploits... I don't even know their name.

    The first Paladin on my old server, Lightbringer, who's name was Fortch -- got the black qiraji battle tank -- That's legendary.

    The Orc warlock who used to run circles around the Alliance in old AV, Niamh, was legendary.

    Again, both things that happen naturally within the game (legendary to Me).

    Exploits make you look stupid and weak for not being able to pull that shit off naturally (if it's even possible).
    Just because I advocate your ability to play and enjoy WoW Classic doesn't mean I think it'll be successful.

    "Being racist is not wrong. It is a lifestyle that you don't approve of. Being racist isn't even illegal, and it never will be." ~Jonnusthegreat

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    If i saw the opportunity to do something "game-breaking" in wow...i think i would do it. Wouldnt you? Because doing things you are not supposed to do in a videogame (without harming other players severely) is...fun?
    No. Because I don't feel the need to exploit just for the sake of it and know it could lead to a ban. When reports were coming out that you could do an extra set of 8.3 dailies on a friday I didn't rush in to get it done. I checked around and saw a confirmation from Blizzard that you won't get in trouble and then went ahead and did it. There are certainly games that I care less because of their nature like any single player game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    The mage, using exploits... I don't even know their name.
    His name was Piccolina...now you know
    And using spellsteal (a standard mage spell) and cleverly using a talent or 2...is not an exploit. Its literally "clever use of game mechanics".

    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    It's an exploit because he kited the mobs through the entire military wing
    He did not kite mobs. He face tanked the mobs
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2020-03-26 at 09:00 PM.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post

    perma ban is if you are a repeat offender, you never get perma banned first exploit.
    Oh I can tell you from experiance that is not true. My first account was perma banned for a first offence.



    I was botting Saronite Ore, smelting it into bars and vendoring them, as the vendor price was 25G a stack back then in Wrath. I didn't sell anything to anyone else. Never had a warning or anything else on it. Straight account closure.

  5. #325
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Its this "things" that were NOT intended to happen that create literally LEGENDS ingame.
    The corrupted blood thing?
    Being a giant in Stormwind? Bigger than any building.
    One shot kazzak in vanilla.
    kiting world bosses to cities

    What is so fun about MMO's is the sandbox nature of it...anything can happen.



    Which is smart...and this people shouldnt be seen as villains...they should be considered smart...but no, they are villains because they are made villains by Blizzard
    Corrupted blood, that was just a bug, not an exploit.
    it became worse when people exploited it, but it happened alot because of a bug, it started on acident, and grew on acident, only a few people actually exploited it.

    Being a giant in stormwind? Yeah thats an exploit but a very minor one, so blizz dont care. as there is no benefit to the player using it.

    One shot kazz, that was a literal exploit, yes it was legendary, but so were many bad things, that was really cool, but really bad, 1 guy able to get an entire world bosses loot pool, rewally bad.

    kiting world bosses, again exploit, but one blizz dont care about, so they will push against it, but wont ban, cause there is no actual benefit to the player for doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Oh I can tell you from experiance that is not true. My first account was perma banned for a first offence.



    I was botting Saronite Ore, smelting it into bars and vendoring them, as the vendor price was 25G a stack back then in Wrath. I didn't sell anything to anyone else. Never had a warning or anything else on it. Straight account closure.
    2009.
    that was over 10 years ago.
    back in wod they changed it to be more lentiant.
    you get bigger and bigger bans each time you offend, until you get perma banned.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    His name was Piccolina...now you know
    And using spellsteal (a standard mage spell) and cleverly using a talent or 2...is not an exploit. Its literally "clever use of game mechanics".



    He did not kite mobs. He face tanked the mobs
    Mobs that were intended to be killed prior to the first boss were instead kept alive throughout the entire wing so the mage could steal a buff that would result in him becoming stronger than an entire raid. That's the definition of an exploit, regardless of how clever it is. You can dance around terminology, you cant attempt to call it whatever you like. He abused mechanics to be utilized far beyond their intended scope, i.e. exploiting. If he had done this with one boss and went, "Wow, that's crazy, can't believe that works" and reported it to Blizzard, we would not have been banned, and probably would have kept the loot drops from Razuvious. He did not, and even tried to take the mobs out of the Military wing so he could solo the rest of the raid.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Mobs that were intended to be killed prior to the first boss were instead kept alive throughout the entire wing so the mage could steal a buff that would result in him becoming stronger than an entire raid. That's the definition of an exploit, regardless of how clever it is. You can dance around terminology, you cant attempt to call it whatever you like. He abused mechanics to be utilized far beyond their intended scope, i.e. exploiting. If he had done this with one boss and went, "Wow, that's crazy, can't believe that works" and reported it to Blizzard, we would not have been banned, and probably would have kept the loot drops from Razuvious. He did not, and even tried to take the mobs out of the Military wing so he could solo the rest of the raid.
    Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

    Is using spellsteal an exploit?
    Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
    Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

    Its simply clever use. IMO

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Well, glad you figured it out. Thanks for your astute observations and you have done the galaxy a service.

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    I see what you did thar!


    It appears people on the internet can't disagree without berating the other person. If only we could just disagree and have different opinions.
    This isn't a case of disagreeing. This is a case of you just being flat out wrong. No game is perfect just as no person is perfect. Error in code will happen. The ToS states that if you notice a bug to report it but if you continue to exploit said bug, you will be punished. The topic of this thread was very clearly a bug. The people who were banned as a result absolutely deserved it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

    Is using spellsteal an exploit?
    Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
    Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

    Its simply clever use. IMO
    The reason he was banned was because he then started just farming the Military Wing with his guild to give them free loot. He absolutely deserved to get banned.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    "clever use of game mechanics" is a misused term... game mechanics are intended. Unintended effects such as bugs aren't game mechanics...they are bugs.
    The correct term is exploiting. Not all exploiting is bad or harmful though, doesn't change what they are.
    Perfect example is the infinite N'zoth assault weekly chest when it first came out, and why the temporary bans were rescinded. Pretty much what happened was that key fragments would always drop after you used your weekly chest key, and if you collected enough fragments and found the chest again, you could loot it as much as you want. Considering it was a brand new patch and the behavior was on the PTR, no one really questioned it. After the bans went out, Blizz rescinded them because what they thought exploitative behavior was necessary for this to happen, but they discovered it was just doing what you'd normally do in the game (i.e. using regular game mechanics, although not necessarily clever for this). If you had to perform specific actions that you'd normally not do when playing the game to reap the benefits of this bug, I guarantee the bans would've been kept in place.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

    Is using spellsteal an exploit?
    Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
    Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

    Its simply clever use. IMO
    Man, with people like you in the world, no wonder COVID is spreading like it is. I detest people that try to explain away cheating.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    How much research is required for players to play the game without being banned for playing it as it's intended? Asking for a friend.
    None. The source is known, you just need to go and actually look at it. That's not research.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdef View Post
    Man, with people like you in the world, no wonder COVID is spreading like it is. I detest people that try to explain away cheating.
    Yeah and MMO-C was a much nicer place without constant flame and toxicity.

    See the thread about the mage piccolina? 90% only people praising the guy and saying "it was cool".

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...litary-Quarter

    MMO-C is a toxic place now.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Oh I can tell you from experiance that is not true. My first account was perma banned for a first offence.
    You weren't exploiting, though, so it's not covered by the statement you quoted.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

    Is using spellsteal an exploit?
    Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
    Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

    Its simply clever use. IMO
    You are trying to split an exploit into the individual aspects and pretending like it's not the sum of it's parts. You don't get to just point out each things and say but that alone isn't an exploit. It's when you combine all the things he did that it becomes an exploit. It's precedent, as set by Blizzard. You can keep calling it clever use, but the Court of Blizzard ruled it exploitation, as does arguably most of the community. It's no different than when players were trying to bring buffs from the overworld into raids/dungeons. Those buffs were clearly not intended to be used inside instanced content, and if a bug allowed them to persist, then you were abusing that bug, thus exploiting. Yes, getting that buff was normally considered typical gameplay, but trying to game the system by making it persist in raid is not.
    Last edited by themaster24; 2020-03-26 at 10:29 PM.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    You are trying to split an exploit into the individual aspects and pretending like it's not the sum of it's parts. You don't get to just point out each things and say but that alone isn't an exploit. It's when you combine all the things he did that it becomes an exploit. It's precedent, as set by Blizzard. You can keep calling it clever use, but the Court of Blizzard ruled it exploitation, as does arguably most of the community. It's no different than when players were trying to bring buffs from the overworld into raids/dungeons. Those buffs were clearly not intended to be used inside instanced content, and if a bug allowed them to persist, then you were abusing that bug, thus exploiting. Yes, getting that buff was normally considered typical gameplay, but trying to game the system by making it persist in raid is not.
    Inner Sanctum (PVE guild on Silvermoon, alliance side) used a similar "exploit" to get world first Hodir Hardmode in Ulduar 25man. The DPS requirement to get Hodir Hardmode was insane, so they kited the flower-trash mobs from Freya's wing of the raid to Hodir's so that the mages could spellsteal a buff the plants gave themselves that increased your casting speed by like 50%. Their Hodir Hardmode World First still stands to this day. The mage you're talking about only got banned because he didn't keep it to himself, and gave loot to his whole guild. Inner Sanctum though used exactly the same tactic (kiting a mob to spellsteal its buff from 1 side of the raid to the other), and did not get punished for it.

    In interviews after the fight, they conceded that it actually made the fight harder, since you had an extra set of adds to always keep an eye out on, but the increase in dmg their mages got was too good to pass up on. So, they basically did Hodir Hardmode squared.

    Hence, it wasn't the fact he Spellstole a 1-million-absorb Bone Shield and used Incanter's Absorption to reach obscene amounts of Spell-Power that was the problem. It was the fact he got loot for everyone while using this clever use of game mechanics.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Inner Sanctum (PVE guild on Silvermoon, alliance side) used a similar "exploit" to get world first Hodir Hardmode in Ulduar 25man. The DPS requirement to get Hodir Hardmode was insane, so they kited the flower-trash mobs from Freya's wing of the raid to Hodir's so that the mages could spellsteal a buff the plants gave themselves that increased your casting speed by like 50%. Their Hodir Hardmode World First still stands to this day. The mage you're talking about only got banned because he didn't keep it to himself, and gave loot to his whole guild. Inner Sanctum though used exactly the same tactic (kiting a mob to spellsteal its buff from 1 side of the raid to the other), and did not get punished for it.

    In interviews after the fight, they conceded that it actually made the fight harder, since you had an extra set of adds to always keep an eye out on, but the increase in dmg their mages got was too good to pass up on. So, they basically did Hodir Hardmode squared.

    Hence, it wasn't the fact he Spellstole a 1-million-absorb Bone Shield and used Incanter's Absorption to reach obscene amounts of Spell-Power that was the problem. It was the fact he got loot for everyone while using this clever use of game mechanics.
    There are Key differences between the two situations. Firstly, what Inner Sanctum (and Ensidia) did was still pretty much an exploit (that pretty much all guilds did at the time since Hodir was a near impossible DPS check). Here's part of Ensidia's own word on the matter as well:

    "So we decided after some thought to use Flower Power. I guess you could say it's like using a World Buff, but it's a pretty retarded strategy. Essentially you end up with 5 mages doing 250% more damage. With this we made it with literally 0.03 seconds left.

    So a ridiculous strategy for the most ridiculous fight in the game. I'm not saying it's easy to do it this way because it really isn't. It is however the ONLY way to kill him at this point. We are not going to be screwed over by Blizzard trying to block Algalon 25 man when other guilds have already completed it, so we did what we had to.

    We sincerely hope that Blizzard decides to correct this boss and the Flower Power. We will not use it for any other boss, but this fight just goes completely against everything Blizzard has said they want to make raiding. I've mailed Blizzard to this effect and we sincerely hope they fix both Hodir and Flower Power."

    One of the key things about why Blizz likely allowed those that used that tactic to get away is explained by this comment from the time (note, there's a reference to a guild that got banned for exploiting HM Yogg):

    "Imo there is a huge difference between then yogg and hodir incident. Exodus used an evade bug that basicly removed all that p3 is about. While ensidia stole a buff from trash and used it to do more dps, but the fight was still the same, with the same challanges and solutions. And thay still only beat the enrage with a few sec, meaning it did not trivialize the fight"

    Ensidia, Inner Sanctum, and others, they didn't trivialize the fight, or the raid, with what they did. I still personally think that what went down with Hodir deserved punishment from the start, but I can understand blizzard giving a pass in this specific incident. What the mage did in Naxx, however, did trivialize things. He was capable of doing the Military Wing Solo. Bringing his guild along for the ride was just icing on the suspension cake.

    Now, is Blizz consistent with meting out punishments? No, not really. Some people get week long bans for random things, while the Mage got a 24hr ban, and Exodus got a 3 day ban. That's where Blizz needs to make efforts to be more clear about how punishments are determined

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If opinions can not be correct then why did you just get done arguing that opinions are never wrong? You can not be incorrect and right at the same time. Which means you are confusing the issue. You are never wrong for having an opinion but opinions can be right or wrong.
    They are neither correct nor incorrect - that's what an opinion is. Holy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    And while you're entitled to have the opinion of 'X Race is better than Y Race', because "Racism" isn't illegal, Discrimination, based on Race (Gender, Nationality, Sexuality, etc) is, very much, Illegal. Take that how you will.

    "The Earth is Flat." Is an opinion and has been proven wrong, by science, time and time again.

    "The moonlanding didn't happen." Again, an opinion, proven wrong.

    "The holocaust didn't happen." Again, an opinion, proven wrong.

    They are Opinions AND beliefs, or rather, Opinions that through sheer force of stupidity, became beliefs, but are rendered no less completely fucking wrong.
    "The Earth is Flat" is not an opinion. It's a belief.

    Instead of typing all of these, they are not opinions. They are beliefs. Beliefs and opinions are different.

  18. #338
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    My first account was perma banned for a first offence.
    Also exploiting is far less serious then botting.
    botting is literally automating the game, using a third party program
    exploiting can be acidently done ingame.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Oh I can tell you from experiance that is not true. My first account was perma banned for a first offence.



    I was botting Saronite Ore, smelting it into bars and vendoring them, as the vendor price was 25G a stack back then in Wrath. I didn't sell anything to anyone else. Never had a warning or anything else on it. Straight account closure.
    You weren't exploiting. You were botting. Two complete separate acts.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    When you ignore everything I write and focus on that single sentence, I guess so.


    "Specific rules" overrule "general rules". That's a basic concept.


    But it is reasonable to require players who desire to remain informed to access the main website, were news are posted on the front page.


    Exploiting a bug/glitch = cheating.


    No, I don't. I agree that Blizzard should ban cheaters. Which they did.

    Keep one thing in mind: Blizzard never bans on first offenses, and they never ban on single offenses that could be just 'honest mistakes' unless the players have a bad track record. I've yet to see a single "ZOMG BLIZZARD BANNED ME SO UNFAIRLY!!" thread in which the situation happened exactly like the OP described. In my experience, they're always hiding important information to make themselves look innocent.
    I did not ignore everything you wrote. I countered each point. Most of which you responded with "you're dumb." It's not looking good for you.

    I would agree that specific rules overrule general rules. Great point. I would also say that in-game rules overrule forum rules. This is where we disagree.

    Being informed beyond the scope of the game is a good thing to do. But to require it as protection from being banned is where it goes too far.

    I don't consider following game mechanics cheating. This is where we disagree.

    Based on previous point, this is not relevant anymore.

    This is not true. Blizzard does ban on first offenses of using game mechanics if Blizzard deems it bannable. As creators of the game, this is their right. My opinion is that this is stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Bugs and glitches are not intended parts of the programming. How is this hard for you to understand?

    Or do you honestly think Blizzard intentionally programs glitches and bugs? You think they do this to 'trap' players and ban them, as if they somehow have a monthly quota of players to ban?
    As I have said at least three times in the thread already, I don't think it's reasonable to expect players to know which programmed mechanics are bugs and which are not bugs.

    I don't think they intentionally program glitches and bugs. I do think that if Blizzard messes up, it should not be the players who are responsible for Blizzard's mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    This isn't a case of disagreeing. This is a case of you just being flat out wrong. No game is perfect just as no person is perfect. Error in code will happen. The ToS states that if you notice a bug to report it but if you continue to exploit said bug, you will be punished. The topic of this thread was very clearly a bug. The people who were banned as a result absolutely deserved it.
    Again, opinions cannot be wrong. You can disagree, but I cannot be wrong. Error in code happens. The ToS states this, yes. It is not very clearly a bug. There is conflicting information in regards to what is allowable with the Malefic Cores. This is where my opinion is different from the rules in place. Imagine having the opinion that slavery is wrong in the USA in 1860 and being berated for your opinion. This is what you are doing. You are berating an individual for having an opinion that conflicts with the rules in place. How embarrassing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    None. The source is known, you just need to go and actually look at it. That's not research.
    The source of the game? Great, the game told me that I could trade it! Glad I won't get banned for doing what the game told me I could do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Also exploiting is far less serious then botting.
    botting is literally automating the game, using a third party program
    exploiting can be acidently done ingame.
    This is why exploiting should never have bans as a repercussion.

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